Method of levels

Kenneth_Kitzke_Value · October 24, 2003, 1:04am

[From Kenny Kitzke (2003.10.23.2100EDT)]

I do believe I can observe (be aware of) my own thoughts and
beliefs. But, part of my other post was suggesting that I am not always
conscious of various high level reference perceptions when I act. I think
you expressed this same point.

<Agreed, and I like your examples.>

Compliment noted and appreciated.

I see belief a bit differently. Beliefs are our reference truths, until we change our references, perhaps by study, perhaps by chance or coincidence from the environment or perhaps by some internal reorganization activity difficult to comprehend.

I am convinced that beliefs can overwhelm possibilities and even evidence to the contrary. We see this in science and in theology, I think.

Darn you Bill, you have me doing it too! Rick hit a home run with his seeing the world and people through “PCT glasses.” I love that metaphor. People, including me, do look different now than before.

No beliefs can turn out to be false. Got a couple of hundred hours and I will tell you some of mine. But, as I said above, my beliefs were my truth at the time. Why would anyone hold a belief they know not to be true?

<However, as you say it all still adds up to an instant of creation, or if
you insist, Creation. My own theory is that this instant was…and the next Kenny and Bill arguing about physics and theology, waving our tentacles.>

Man, you had me going so fast, I thought you wrote testicles!

I am glad you switched to write PCT instead. I think it is a tad more convincing than your science fiction.

Dick_Robertson · October 24, 2003, 3:25am

[From Dick Robertson,2003.10.23.2200CDT]

"David M. Goldstein" wrote:

[From David Goldstein (2003.10.23.0636 EDT)]
[From Bill Powers (2003.10.21.1454 MDT)]

Bill and Listmates, Great post!

Yes! And I would like to propose that all of us interested in practicing PCT
(and especially MOL )go down the ladder of abstraction when telling of an
exciting experience as in David's and Bill's recent posts.

BTW Bill, I hope your "bad back" gives the least possible trouble.

I'll take David's first as it's most ready to hand.

During our treatment team discussions of cases, for example, I simply
apply PCT to the case involved.

I would love to have a videotape here of what went on in your session.
Since you can't send a tape along in an email I mean that I wish you would
describe the setting and the problem breifly and then give an "He said, and
then I said, and then he said,"
of the incident.

The reason I'm asking for this is that I would like to have as concrete as
possible a representation of what actually went on so that I can compare
what you mean by the words you use with what I would mean when I use those
same words.

I see it as an attempt to get our discussions of higher order phenomena as
much as possible like the presentation of a tracking task. In it any one
can replicate the producer's experience to compare it with his own.
Likewise, if I can see what you and "C" actually said I can at least come
nearer to comparing it with what I thought you meant in terms of what I
would mean when using those same words.

It strikes me, incidentaly, that this is not unrelated to the
discussion.Bill and Bruce have been having about meaning.

Now, I'll take up Bill's post as a further illustration.

While conducting a session with the MOL online, I had a sudden
revelation about how to get PCT across. This came about after I had read
C's (short for "my correspondent's") entire post and was puzzling about
how to get C to go up a level, when all C could say was that nothing was
happening and that further delving might be counterproductive. How could
I explain what going up a level was like, so C could try it and see how
the method works?

I thought C had gone up to the level where he would be forced to reorganize
because there was no RS on the level which was perceiving his current state
of consciousness. Is that what you meant us readers to note, Bill? Or did
you have something entirely different in mind?

Well, I hope you guys out there are feeling smarter than I am right now.
Nothing is happening? Further delving counterproductive? How much clearer
does an up-a-level remark have to be before the poor guide gets it? People
can't NOT go up a level. But that doesn't mean they, or any observer,
automatically will recognize the phenomenon when it happens.

Check.

That thought led very quickly to the realization of how we have to deal
with people who don't get, or don't want to get, PCT. Arguing about the
merits. thinking up crystal-clear examples, putting on irrefutable
demonstrations, writing articles in prestigious journals -- all those are
very nice and useful things to do, but they won't help anyone understand
or adopt PCT if he or she has a reason not to do so. And
conversely,if a person has no reason NOT to understand PCT, I think we can
all attest that understanding will be quick and easy, even if not perfect
right away. PCT just isn't that hard to grasp.

I'm sure most of you see already where I'm headed. If you're having a
problem getting someone to see how PCT works, you have to go immediately
into the "guide" mode of MOL.

Well, what I do with my grandchildren, e.g. is to point out that what they
_do_ involves trying to have what they _want_ come true, or into existence.
They don't seem to have any trouble at all with that. Of course, they
haven't already been deeply committed to seeing that the environment makes
them do things.

This means you don't urge conclusions on anyone, you don't persuade or
teach or argue or give advice. All you do is find out what the person
thinks about PCT, and then look for remarks that will get to the next
level of thinking, and so on until the person realizes the nature of
whatever problem he's having with PCT. The problem will then go away.

OK

Interesting what comes out when you start thinking along these lines. I
realize that I very much would like for lots of people to understand and
approve of PCT. It's just that I don't usually waste time wishing for nice
things that I doubt will happen.

Best, Bill P.

Best, Dick R

David_Goldstein1 · October 24, 2003, 10:42am

from David Goldstein (2003.10.24.0627 EDT]

Dick Robertson asked me to write about the way I apply PCT at the
treatment team meetings of the residential center where I work.
I will do this, but will have to do it in real time, from now on because
I don't can't recall the past incidents well enough to make it
worthwhile.
Yesterday, we were talking to a female adolescent who has been at our
center for about 6 months. The only family support system she has is an
older sister. The older sister is not ready to have her return because
of her aggressive, demanding and noncompliant behavior.
She does have home visits.
This female adolescent has not made any progress in her treatment goals
since she has been at our center. However, she is easier to talk to now
than she was in the beginning. She is more approachable. She wants to
leave the center but has no place to go right now.
The treatment team was trying to persuade her to try some medication to
help her be less impulsive. She has refused from the beginning and
continues to refuse.
We asked her to explain her position. She said something like this. I
will take it and might be a little better. Then I would stop. Then I
would have to take it again.
I suggested that we stop trying to persuade her right now. I said that
we have to listen to her a little more to really understand what her
issues/concerns were about. I will talk to her about the issue. From
what she said, I am thinking that she doesn't want to be dependent on
the medication the rest of her life. But I will try and do the MOL with
her to find out her thinking/feeling on the topic and report back.

David
David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Robertson
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 11:25 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Method of levels

[From Dick Robertson,2003.10.23.2200CDT]

"David M. Goldstein" wrote:

[From David Goldstein (2003.10.23.0636 EDT)]
[From Bill Powers (2003.10.21.1454 MDT)]

Bill and Listmates, Great post!

Yes! And I would like to propose that all of us interested in practicing
PCT (and especially MOL )go down the ladder of abstraction when telling
of an exciting experience as in David's and Bill's recent posts.

BTW Bill, I hope your "bad back" gives the least possible trouble.

I'll take David's first as it's most ready to hand.

During our treatment team discussions of cases, for example, I simply
apply PCT to the case involved.

I would love to have a videotape here of what went on in your session.
Since you can't send a tape along in an email I mean that I wish you
would describe the setting and the problem breifly and then give an "He
said, and then I said, and then he said," of the incident.

The reason I'm asking for this is that I would like to have as concrete
as possible a representation of what actually went on so that I can
compare what you mean by the words you use with what I would mean when I
use those same words.

I see it as an attempt to get our discussions of higher order phenomena
as much as possible like the presentation of a tracking task. In it any
one can replicate the producer's experience to compare it with his own.
Likewise, if I can see what you and "C" actually said I can at least
come nearer to comparing it with what I thought you meant in terms of
what I would mean when using those same words.

It strikes me, incidentaly, that this is not unrelated to the
discussion.Bill and Bruce have been having about meaning.

Now, I'll take up Bill's post as a further illustration.

While conducting a session with the MOL online, I had a sudden
revelation about how to get PCT across. This came about after I had
read C's (short for "my correspondent's") entire post and was puzzling

about how to get C to go up a level, when all C could say was that
nothing was happening and that further delving might be
counterproductive. How could I explain what going up a level was like,

so C could try it and see how the method works?

I thought C had gone up to the level where he would be forced to
reorganize because there was no RS on the level which was perceiving his
current state of consciousness. Is that what you meant us readers to
note, Bill? Or did you have something entirely different in mind?

Well, I hope you guys out there are feeling smarter than I am right
now. Nothing is happening? Further delving counterproductive? How much

clearer does an up-a-level remark have to be before the poor guide
gets it? People can't NOT go up a level. But that doesn't mean they,
or any observer, automatically will recognize the phenomenon when it
happens.

Check.

That thought led very quickly to the realization of how we have to
deal with people who don't get, or don't want to get, PCT. Arguing
about the merits. thinking up crystal-clear examples, putting on
irrefutable demonstrations, writing articles in prestigious journals
-- all those are very nice and useful things to do, but they won't
help anyone understand or adopt PCT if he or she has a reason not to
do so. And conversely,if a person has no reason NOT to understand PCT,

I think we can all attest that understanding will be quick and easy,
even if not perfect right away. PCT just isn't that hard to grasp.

I'm sure most of you see already where I'm headed. If you're having a
problem getting someone to see how PCT works, you have to go
immediately into the "guide" mode of MOL.

Well, what I do with my grandchildren, e.g. is to point out that what
they _do_ involves trying to have what they _want_ come true, or into
existence. They don't seem to have any trouble at all with that. Of
course, they haven't already been deeply committed to seeing that the
environment makes them do things.

This means you don't urge conclusions on anyone, you don't persuade or

teach or argue or give advice. All you do is find out what the person
thinks about PCT, and then look for remarks that will get to the next
level of thinking, and so on until the person realizes the nature of
whatever problem he's having with PCT. The problem will then go away.

OK

Interesting what comes out when you start thinking along these lines.
I realize that I very much would like for lots of people to understand

and approve of PCT. It's just that I don't usually waste time wishing
for nice things that I doubt will happen.

Best, Bill P.

Best, Dick R

Bill_Powers · October 24, 2003, 1:39pm

[From Bill Powers (2003.10.24.0734 MDT)]

Kenny Kitzke (2003.10.23.2010EDT)--

One of the key aspects about MOL is that the therapist/facilitator does
not have to know solutions and provide them to the patient to solve the
patient's conflict. This is upside down for most counseling and
therapy. If, for example, we have a marriage problem/conflict, we expect
the therapist to be an expert on every aspect of successful and happy
marriage relationships so they can give astute advice on solving the problem.

Your grasp of the MOL is impressive, Kenny. I agree with you down the line,
including your despair about your young friend. Are there any relatives you
can contact? But that's just me wishing I could do something; no doubt
you've considered all the possibilities.

There are tough MOL cases, I can attest to that and so can Tim Carey. It
may mot be the final answer to everything. But when you consider the
alternatives, what is there that we could do that has a better chance of
helping, and less chance of harming?

Best,

Bill P.

···

But, beyond the idea of not "telling" the patient what the solution is,
MOL seems to work best when the facilitator shows genuine interest and
empathy for the patient. It seems to relax the patient and encourages
them to reach deep inside their thoughts and spirit to express what is
coming to awareness. There is no fear that what they reveal, or even they
themselves, will be criticized by the "expert" and made to feel guilty or
stupid.

So, if the MOL facilitator only asks gentle questions, without being
judgmental or prescriptive, it also seems to help the patient open up, be
truthful and candid. All the more likely they will go up a level to see
their behavior and conflict from a different and more enlightened
perspective where they can deal with the conflict successfully.

My guess is that if a MOL session produces a resolution to a long-standing
conflict, one that perhaps the patient has submitted to many
therapists/counselors without achieving a satisfactory resolution, they
could be moved to say, "Boy this was marvelous, how did this happen when
all the other attempts failed." Now, the fish is probably ready to
swallow/learn the MOL and PCT methods that support this novel MOL approach.

BTW, my most recent MOL attempts have been with a fatherless 14-year old
boy whom I mentor. But, I only get to see him once a week for a few hours
and twice now, he has behaved in ways where the social services have
placed him in ever more restrictive facilities. The one he is in now lets
him make only one five minute phone call a week.

They won't give him my phone number and have stalled and stalled about
setting up a visit for me using red tape excuses. Am I a certified
psychologist? Hell no. So, what good could a friend who wants to listen
to Mike without threats or rules possibly do?

Their professional service approach seems to be lay down the law with
punishment clearly identified so the kid will give up his aberrant,
rebelious ways. Of course, they cannot understand that their approach may
only serve to encourage more conflict, despair and hate in Mike toward
them and life, until there will be no hope and no reason to stay
alive. It breaks my heart. I feel so useless. I wish I had the kind of
experience and coaching that perhaps a Tim Carey could provide me so I
could be more effective.

bnhpct · October 24, 2003, 3:33pm

[From Bruce Nevin (2003.10.24 11:30 EDT)]

Kenny Kitzke (2003.10.23.2100EDT)--

···

At 09:04 PM 10/23/2003 -0400, Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems wrote:

beliefs can overwhelm possibilities and even evidence to the contrary.

Indeed!

Then if we are interested in figuring out as nearly as we can what's true, it behooves us to identify our beliefs and circumspectly, repeatedly, with the cunning of a clever adversary, test them.

/Bruce Nevin

Philip_Runkel · October 24, 2003, 11:21pm

Phil Runkel replying to Kenny Kitzke's of 2003.10.23.2010 EDT:

It breaks my heart, too.

Kenneth_Kitzke_Value · October 25, 2003, 3:09pm

[From Kenny Kitzke (2003.10.25.1029EDT)]

Compliments are a balm to my reference perceptions, and probably for every person. I bet you knew that!

For you, and for Phil (who also commented on Michael and the sadness about such societal losses), there is only a grandmother in Mike’s life.

He was living with his grandparents and displaying what I suspect are the normal rebelious behaviors of a male teen in this current envirnoment without parents or siblings.

He seemed to like his grandfather (but not so much grandma). Then, one day two summers ago, old gramps left Mike and his wife without a word and apparently moved to Minnesota. I don’t know why. He has not taked to them since.

This seemed to trigger a new level of resentment and futility in Mike’s life and actions. It is also when Social Services identified Mike (problems in school I think, truancy, drugs and fighting) as a candidate for a Mentoring Program (for some male contact) which I had just joined.

I see usually see Dorothy (grandma, whom Mike calls Mom) when I pick Mike up or drop him off. They live in a subsidized housing project. The influences there are not helpful to Mike’s life goals or attitudes. I have talked to her privately, usually when I find out Mike has been committed to some detention center.

Dorothy is little help to Mike. She has her own life problems. I did talk to her briefly about a sweeping fobia she has, as she is always sweeping the floor. I know she visits a psychiatrist. I thought about an MOL on this, but did not pursue it as the rules of the Mentoring Program prohibit very much involvement with the mentee’s family.

Her Greek husband leaving her has taken a toll on her. When I go there she is often sleeping on the couch in a dark room with the shades drawn in daylight. She is often groggy-like, doesn’t know what day it is (I meet Mike every Tuesday after school) and constantly on cigarettes and coffee. She tries to be kind and helpful to Mike to make him decent. But, he resents her and has nothing in common with her. He has told the facility he does not want her to visit. She has had to call the police when Mike becomes violent, or brings home older kids on drugs at 3:00 AM. He tore her phone off the wall so she couldn’t call the police and ran away for several days.

This is the real world of behavior and life for what seems to be a growing number of teens, especially fatherless teen boys, in our country. I am the only person who ever comes to see him or call him when he is confined. He is a bright boy, gets A’s and B’s when he wants to learn. That is why it hurts when nothing I can say or do seems to change his references. I have spent hundreds of hours and close to a $1,000 in the last year trying to be some kind of friend and inspiration to Mike.

I have not actually used an MOL process with him. I don’t think it will work much unless he trusts me. I know he counter-controls the people in the juvenile justice system. He is plently smart enough to do that, and is a good “actor.” I doubt he will care about what I think or know, until he knows I care. I have been trying to get to that step, and just about when I think I am close to being a trusted friend (seen as someone who will help and not condemn), he goes amuk and they incarcirate him.

The current facility won’t even return my calls. And, his “counselor” does not seem to know him, much less what might help him. Next week I plan to go there and try to see him in person. Short of that, the earliest he will be released (my guess to a foster home or teen home as I think neither Mike nor the authorities think returning to Dorothy will work) is in another two months. I just won’t quit though until he tells me to go to hell. Hope is something I am familiar with and cherish as a high level reference perception.

Dick_Robertson · October 25, 2003, 6:48pm

[From Dick Robertson,2003.10.25.1330CDT]

I 've been trying to send this for a couple of days, but the server
seems to have been down.

Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems wrote:

[From Kenny Kitzke (2003.10.23.2010EDT)]

<Bruce Nevin (2003.10.23 13:20 EDT)>

<In all cases, it seems that genuinely listening is a key.

a caring and listening ear

Thanks,

/Bruce Nevin>

You are most welcome. One of the key aspects about MOL is that the
therapist/facilitator does not have to know solutions and provide them
to the patient
to solve the patient's conflict.

I think this is a great example of how anyone who uses PCT as his/her
basic understanding of behavior, will come readily upon the approach
that psychotherapists have had to gain from generations of hard
experience.

However, I need to comment on what I perceive as a misunderstanding
about modern therapy.

This is upside down for most counseling and
therapy. If, for example, we have a marriage problem/conflict, we
expect the
therapist to be an expert on every aspect of successful and happy
marriage
relationships so they can give astute advice on solving the problem.

I don't personally know a single therapist (and I personally know quite
a few) to whom this characterization would apply. One of the reasons
that "general feedback theory" made sense to me when I first heard of it
during my internship in Carl Rogers' counseling and therapy center was
that it supplied the theoretical base for what we were already
empirically being trained to do, but without a good foundation in
traditional psychology.

But, beyond the idea of not "telling" the patient what the solution
is, MOL
seems to work best when the facilitator shows genuine interest and
empathy for
the patient. It seems to relax the patient and encourages them to
reach deep
inside their thoughts and spirit to express what is coming to
awareness.
There is no fear that what they reveal, or even they themselves, will
be
criticized by the "expert" and made to feel guilty or stupid.

That could almost be charged as plagairism from Rogers' (ca. 1950)
Client Centered Therapy.

So, if the MOL facilitator only asks gentle questions, without being
judgmental or prescriptive, it also seems to help the patient open up,
be truthful and
candid. All the more likely they will go up a level to see their
behavior
and conflict from a different and more enlightened perspective where
they can
deal with the conflict successfully.

Absolutely.

My guess is that if a MOL session produces a resolution to a
long-standing
conflict, one that perhaps the patient has submitted to many
therapists/counselors without achieving a satisfactory resolution,
they could be moved to say,

I think a majority of really good therapists unwittingly do a lot of MOL
work while
"flying by the seat of their pants" because, unfortunately, they don't
know that PCT supplies a theoretical foundation for what they have
learned to do. If a supposed therapist does not work that way, I would
wonder what kind of training he has had.

BTW, my most recent MOL attempts have been with a fatherless 14-year
old boy
whom I mentor. But, I only get to see him once a week for a few hours
and
twice now, he has behaved in ways where the social services have
placed him in
ever more restrictive facilities. The one he is in now lets him make
only one
five minute phone call a week.

This is really sad. But it doesn't represent the approach of any
therapist I know, as I said above. That the justice system seems
generally to be based upon a philosophy of "breaking" the nonconforming,
like cowboys used to break mustangs on the range, is a sad commentary on
the ignorance about behavior that continues the underly the thinking of
most people in authority still today.

They won't give him my phone number and have stalled and stalled about

setting up a visit for me using red tape excuses. Am I a certified
psychologist?
Hell no. So, what good could a friend who wants to listen to Mike
without
threats or rules possibly do?

Very sad, and I hope you find an end run around this outrageous
turf-holding attitude.

Their professional service approach seems to be lay down the law with
punishment clearly identified so the kid will give up his aberrant,
rebelious ways.
Of course, they cannot understand that their approach may only serve
to
encourage more conflict, despair and hate in Mike toward them and
life, until there
will be no hope and no reason to stay alive. It breaks my heart. I
feel so
useless.

As I said above.

I wish I had the kind of experience and coaching that perhaps a Tim
Carey could provide me so I could be more effective.

The really neat thing about learning PCT and MOL as part of it, is that
it hasn't yet (and hopefully never will) become _intellectual
property_. That also relates to my recent plea for details,
details,demonstration, demonstration in my recent post to David. Anyone
who wishes can practice MOL formally or informally as an ordinary way of
relating with someone who is exploring a personal issue and the more we
get to see actual demonstrations of what each other does the better we
should all become at it.

Best,

Dick R.

···

Dick_Robertson · October 25, 2003, 6:51pm

[From Dick Robertson,2003.10.25.1330CDT]

"David M. Goldstein" wrote:

>From David Goldstein (2003.10.24.0627 EDT]

Dick Robertson asked me to write about the way I apply PCT at the
treatment team meetings of the residential center where I work.
I will do this, but will have to do it in real time, from now on because
I don't can't recall the past incidents well enough to make it
worthwhile.
Yesterday, we were talking to a female adolescent who has been at our
center for about 6 months. The only family support system she has is an
older sister. The older sister is not ready to have her return because
of her aggressive, demanding and noncompliant behavior.
She does have home visits.
This female adolescent has not made any progress in her treatment goals
since she has been at our center. However, she is easier to talk to now
than she was in the beginning. She is more approachable. She wants to
leave the center but has no place to go right now.
The treatment team was trying to persuade her to try some medication to
help her be less impulsive. She has refused from the beginning and
continues to refuse.
We asked her to explain her position. She said something like this. I
will take it and might be a little better. Then I would stop. Then I
would have to take it again.
I suggested that we stop trying to persuade her right now. I said that
we have to listen to her a little more to really understand what her
issues/concerns were about. I will talk to her about the issue. From
what she said, I am thinking that she doesn't want to be dependent on
the medication the rest of her life. But I will try and do the MOL with
her to find out her thinking/feeling on the topic and report back.

David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.

Great, David, that really helps me visualize you in action.

Best,
Dick R.

···

Dick_Robertson · October 25, 2003, 7:27pm

[From Dick Robertson, 2003.10.25.1415CDT]

Hope this gets through, server seems to have been down last couple of
days.

Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems wrote:

Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)

Encoding: 7bit

[From Kenny Kitzke (2003.10.25.1029EDT)]

Compliments are a balm to my reference perceptions, and probably for
every
person. I bet you knew that!

For you, and for Phil (who also commented on Michael and the sadness
about
such societal losses), there is only a grandmother in Mike's life.
He was living with his grandparents and displaying what I suspect are
the
normal rebelious behaviors of a male teen in this current envirnoment
without
parents or siblings.

He seemed to like his grandfather (but not so much grandma). Then, one
day
two summers ago, old gramps left Mike and his wife without a word and
apparently moved to Minnesota. I don't know why. He has not taked to
them since.

What a tragedy. That grandpa's behavior is totally incomprehensible to
me. My grandkids are the joy of my life. But, I guess that tells
something about the background that set Mike up for all the things you
are observing.

This seemed to trigger a new level of resentment and futility in Mike's
life
and actions. It is also when Social Services identified Mike (problems
in
school I think, truancy, drugs and fighting) as a candidate for a
Mentoring
Program (for some male contact) which I had just joined.

OK, so then why are they making it difficult for you to do your
mentoring, Or is that a different agency that would seem to be working
at cross purposes with Social Services?

Dorothy is little help to Mike. She has her own life problems. I did
talk
to her briefly about a sweeping fobia (mania ) she has, as she is
always sweeping the floor. I know she visits a psychiatrist. I thought
about an MOL on this, but
did not pursue it as the rules of the Mentoring Program prohibit very
much
involvement with the mentee's family.

This is the real world of behavior and life for what seems to be a
growing
number of teens, especially fatherless teen boys, in our country. I am
the only
person who ever comes to see him or call him when he is confined. He is
a
bright boy, gets A's and B's when he wants to learn. That is why it
hurts when
nothing I can say or do seems to change his references. I have spent
hundreds
of hours and close to a $1,000 in the last year trying to be some kind
of
friend and inspiration to Mike.

I salute your devotion, Kenny.

I have not actually used an MOL process with him. I don't think it will
work
much unless he trusts me.

But, I gather you talk to him when you can. If he talks with you at all
I would imagine that you must sometimes ask him what he really wants and
does what he does get him that. And I'll bet that if he will engage at
all on issues like that then you probably also ask him how he feels
about [any conflict you might identify in what he tells you]. So,
wouldln't that be practicing MOL with him?

I know he counter-controls the people in the
juvenile justice system. He is plently smart enough to do that, and is
a good
"actor." I doubt he will care about what I think or know, until he
knows I care.
I have been trying to get to that step, and just about when I think I am

close to being a trusted friend (seen as someone who will help and not
condemn),
he goes amuk and they incarcirate him.

The current facility won't even return my calls. And, his "counselor"
does
not seem to know him, much less what might help him.

What a disaster. How do the people who recruited you into the mentoring
program feel about that? Have they ever been tempted to contact the
60Minutes people, or news outlet like that, about the sabotaging of
their rehabilitation efforts by the juvenile justice system (or is it
the juvenile injustice system?)?

Next week I plan to go there and try to see him in person. Short of
that, the earliest he will be released (my guess to a foster home or
teen home as I think neither Mike nor the authorities think returning to
Dorothy will work) is in another two months. I
just won't quit though until he tells me to go to hell. Hope is
something I
am familiar with and cherish as a high level reference perception.

Again, I salute you Kenny. Hope you through the wall.

Best,

Dick R.