[From Bruce Nevin (980807.1707 EDT)]
Rick Marken (980807.0930)--
First, a paraphrase summary to make sure of clear understanding.
In your (980806.2050) yes/no answers, you said
1. The physical resistance of the house does NOT determine the mover's
behavior (which is unsuccessful control).
2. The control of the contested variable by the coercer IS control of the
victim's behavior (which is unsuccessful control).
To me (980807.0808 EDT) this sounded like you are saying
1'. The disturbance to the mover's control DOES NOT determine the mover's
behavior.
2'. The disturbance to the victim's control DOES determine the victim's
behavior.
I asked if this was a fair paraphrase of your answers. You say no
(980807.0930). Your reasons:
* The house is not a control system, and the coercer is.
How is this relevant? (BTW, that's why I said "determine" rather than
"control.")
* The disturbance does not _determine_ the behavior of the
controlled variable in either case.
In other words: when a control system cannot overcome a disturbance, the
disturbance does not determine the value of the variable that the
overwhelmed control system is unsuccessfully controlling.
What does determine the value of the controlled variable, then, if not the
disturbance that the victim/mover is unable to overcome?
Don't bring in additional sources of disturbance. In these scenarios I
postulated only two effects on the variable, the outputs of the ineffective
control system and the rigidity, mass, etc. of the object. No other sources
of disturbance are relevant since (as stipulated) the identified source of
disturbance is what prevents control.
In the coercion case, the reference values and nervous system of the
wrestler are making his muscles hold his body rigid, in the house case some
carpenters made the house rigid quite a while ago. The wrestler could
choose to change reference values for body configuration etc. but he is not
going to do so. He intends to be fixed and immovable, just like the house,
and neither you nor I nor the victim is going to change that. And he
doesn't tire easily, certainly not in the time frame we are concerned with
(an episode of coercion). So how is the fact that he is a control system
relevant?
Given this statement of yours, that "the disturbance does not _determine_
the behavior of the controlled variable," how is it that
2. The control of the contested variable by the coercer IS control
of the victim's behavior (which is unsuccessful control).
How does the coercer control the victim's behavior without determining the
value of the variable that (a) the coercer is successfully controlling and
(b) the victim is unsuccessfully controlling?
Bear in mind that this is simple coercion, overwhelming force, no
extortion. Compliant rape victims etc. are not relevant.
I asked some other questions (980807.0808 EDT) that you did not answer.
Is there a contradiction between (1) and (2)?
If not, why not?
In sum, the only difference (as you pointed out) is that the wrestler is a
control system and the house is not. How is this relevant?
The above statements marked * are my paraphrases. Here is what I am
paraphrasing, so you can judge whether I understood you correctly.
the disturbance to the variable controlled by
the mover is _not_ the output of another control system. The
disturbance to the variable controlled by the victim _is_. In both
cases, the disturbance does not _determine_ the behavior of the
controlled variable. But in the case of the mover, only the
mover is controlling (unsuccessfully) the behavior of the
controlled variable; in the case of the victim, the behavior
of the controlled variable is controlled by both the victim
(unsuccessfully) and the coercer (very successfully).
Bruce Nevin