# more on love and submission

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/more-on-love-and-submission/14321>\
**Category:** CSG1999\
**Created:** [November 17, 1999, 7:16pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/more-on-love-and-submission/14321 "1999-11-17T19:16:32Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 2\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Powers1)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 1999, 7:16pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/more-on-love-and-submission/14321/1 "1999-11-17T19:16:32Z")

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[from Mary Powers (991117)]

Well, Kenny, if you do subject your will to your wife's will quite often,  
aren't you breaking the rules of the Bible "which require the husband to be  
head of the household and head over his wife"?

I think that what you are doing here is interpreting the Bible as it suits  
you - in this case you are taking an ancient document from a culture in  
which women were possessions to be transferred from father to husband for  
financial and political reasons - and by showing how nice you are to do  
what your wife wants you provide a 20th century justification for it to be  
ok to have authority over her. Including there being (unspecified) limits  
to your authority, which is not necessarily justified in the Bible either  
except by careful selection of supporting evidence and elimination of  
anything contradictory. Of course if she wants something from you she has  
to ask you in an acceptable way or no dice, and you call the shots on  
what's acceptable.

It's very nice when a husband and wife do things for each other, but your  
biblical approach makes it a power thing, in which all this talk of  
submission and will implies that you do things for your wife only as a  
favor, while she is simply doing her duty in doing things for you, the  
head. That is why I was asking what love has got to do with it. Because  
none of this seems very loving.

Your answer is that only love makes it possible to submit, and you ask "for  
isn't it very hard to submit your will willingly to another person, unless  
you love them? It is hard even then". To which I can only say that if a  
couple has high reference levels for keeping each other comfortable and  
happy, and low reference levels for being the boss, submission is a  
non-issue. Why make things more difficult than they need to be by trying  
to satisfy a biblical requirement for an authoritarian chain of command?  
Surely thatit can only make a marriage relationship more of a struggle than  
it would otherwise be.

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**Author:** ![Kenneth\_Kitzke\_Value](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenneth\_Kitzke\_Value](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Kenneth_Kitzke_Value)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 1999, 4:15pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/more-on-love-and-submission/14321/2 "1999-11-19T16:15:19Z")

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[From Kenny Kitzke (991119)]

\<Mary Powers (991117)\>

\<Well, Kenny, if you do subject your will to your wife's will quite often,  
aren't you breaking the rules of the Bible "which require the husband to be  
head of the household and head over his wife"?\>

Of course not. Do you not comprehend the Biblical concept of a benevolent  
ruler?

\<I think that what you are doing here is interpreting the Bible as it suits  
you -\>

It is quite evident that you do this very thing you accuse me of doing. Your  
understanding of the Bible is quite limited, and understandably so.

\<in this case you are taking an ancient document from a culture in  
which women were possessions to be transferred from father to husband for  
financial and political reasons - and by showing how nice you are to do  
what your wife wants you provide a 20th century justification for it to be  
ok to have authority over her.\>

The ancient document which you perceive is the one I perceive as inspired by  
the Ancient of Days, the being who created all things. "Financial and  
political reasons?" What a joke. Show me the verses where the Bible deals  
with marriage or women that way. The cultures you talk about and their  
religions were what the people of God were called to separate themselves from  
and to live differently.

The wisdom in the most widely read book ever written may look foolish to you,  
and indeed, it predicts that very thing. I do not need to justify having  
authority over my wife. I have it and she willingly agrees. Ask her. Get  
some data. If you and Bill have different perceptions that work for your  
perceptual relationship, that is fine. I feel no need to criticize your  
justifications.

\<Including there being (unspecified) limits  
to your authority, which is not necessarily justified in the Bible either  
except by careful selection of supporting evidence and elimination of  
anything contradictory.\>

This is Mary babble. How can you make such unwarranted claims and expect any  
credibility? My wife and I know what the limits are regarding our marriage  
and whether you do or not, or whether you accept them or not for your  
marriage, doesn't mean a hoot to us. Worse, especially as a PCTer who should  
know this is illusionary at best, you put your words to what I do and even  
why I do them (my intentions) which you haven't a clue about and can't  
possibly understand.

\<Of course if she wants something from you she has  
to ask you in an acceptable way or no dice, and you call the shots on  
what's acceptable.\>

And, when you want something from Bill, do you just demand your rights  
whether he accepts them or not?

\<It's very nice when a husband and wife do things for each other, but your  
biblical approach makes it a power thing, in which all this talk of  
submission and will implies that you do things for your wife only as a  
favor, while she is simply doing her duty in doing things for you, the  
head. That is why I was asking what love has got to do with it. Because  
none of this seems very loving.\>

Again, this is merely what it implies to you. What we do is done out of  
love, for one another, and for our Creator. Love has everything to do with  
it for us. And, it is our business as human beings to believe so and do so.  
We surely don't need your approval. And, I doubt if you have any special  
insight into what "loves got to do with it" than Tiny Turner.

\<To which I can only say that if a  
couple has high reference levels for keeping each other comfortable and  
happy, and low reference levels for being the boss, submission is a  
non-issue.\>

If that is your basis for a marriage till death do you part, fine. Write a  
book about it. More than half the marriages in our enlightened age fail.  
Perhaps your wisdom would help half the people alive? It would be a far  
bigger hit than B:CP or MSOB. Yea. Keep each other comfortable and happy.  
Yep. That is what they have not figured out. Go for it.

\<Why make things more difficult than they need to be by trying  
to satisfy a biblical requirement for an authoritarian chain of command?\>

It is not difficult for us. It works great.

\<Surely thatit can only make a marriage relationship more of a struggle than  
it would otherwise be.\>

No. Our marriage was indeed a struggle \_before\_ we turned to the Bible way.  
Now it is rock solid, and better than ever. We "reorganized" and found a  
better way which is totally consistent with PCT. What's been your experience  
with marriage? Is the relationship you share with Bill based on anything  
special or different from that you would perceive for a good relationship  
with anyone, say a good friend?