[From Bob Clark (930620.09:45 pm EDT)]

Rick Marken (930614.1200)

Your position is:

opposed to those of Bruce Nevin and Bob Clark (who seem to believe
that social control systems either exist or are useful metaphors)

In earlier posts my remarks were taken to imply that social control
systems have some kind of physical existence external to the
individuals composing the systems. I think subsequent posts have
made it clear that I regard all such systems (including, for that
matter, HPCT, etc) as existing only within the "minds" of
individuals, and written records reflecting such existence.

Certainly, as you remark, and quote from, Bill, people use these
concepts for a variety of purposes. But they can only do these
things if both they and those they try to affect have somewhat
similar concepts of specific social control systems.

I do disagree with your suggestion that social control systems are:

just a side effect of the operation of individual control systems.

To the contrary, social control systems are themselves examples of
functioning hierarchical control systems. They exist, and function,
purely because they exist in the minds of those using them. They may
not be very complete, they may not be very effective, they may be
loaded with conflicts -- but they exist, at least in the sense that
their existence and operation make a difference in the lives of the
people involved.

Regards, Bob Clark