from [ Marc Abrams (990703.1546) ]
In a short conversation I had with Bill a few minutes ago ( about a post I
never got ). I asked him what he thought about the last couple of posts of
mine ( with regard to Rick ). Although I don't think his views represent
those of others on the list, ( i.e. he spoke to, and got a consensus from )
but they very well might be, so I decided to address some of the points he
brought up to the list as whole.
1) Bill thought I was/am trying to "reform" Rick. He didn't think it would
"work".
My initial reaction to Bill was, "No I'm not". But if you see "suggesting
ways of possibly seeing things differently, and possibly changing _how_ and
what you perceive the "problem" to be as "reforming" then I guess he's
right. Only, I don't believe _I_ can do anything of the sort to any one
else. If any "reforming" is going to take place it will be because any one
of us _individually_ attempts to, and works on, the change effort.
A second point with regard to the first. It takes a minimum of two for this
to work. If one refuses ( for any reason ) then learning is severely
limited. It's not a crime, life and this list have endured for a long time
without a whole lot of learning going on.
2) Bill thought that the focus was on a bunch of people telling others
_what_ was wrong.
This is only _partly_ accurate. Yes others must point out errors that they
see between what someone _says_ they are doing and what is actually being
produced by that person. But the ability to provide the hard data ( i.e.
what was actually said, rather then imagined ) to show _why_ you feel there
is an error, and for the other person to reflect on this and "learn", is
what it's all about. It takes at least two people willing to inquire as well
as advocate.
3) Bill liked Bruce G's suggestion of staying quiet.
I like it to. Except silence does not help learning. When I post to the net
and get no responses, I'm not learning anything. When someone points out a
perceived error and provides the hard data for me to reflect on, I have the
_chance_ to learn ( it's always up to me to take, or not take advantage of
learning opportunities ) . If this list is, as Marken and Powers believe and
espouse, a vehicle for helping people "learn" PCT, then staying quiet, in my
view, is no better then telling someone that their views and ideas are
horseshit and aren't worth the bother. I for one can live _without_ that
kind of "help" 
What do you folks out in CSG land think? I can't believe someone doesn't
have an opinion or two about this stuff? Can we better help each other to
traverse the path to see the PCT light :-).
Does anyone care?
Marc