Nobel in Economics

[From Rick Marken (2002.10.23.2250)]

Bill Powers (2002.10.23.1425 MDT)--

I mostly agree. As a more general view, however, I think that government
(or national policy-making bodies of any kind) should pay attention to
precisely those aspects of the economy that are national -- in short, to
macroeconomics. What company A does relative to company B is irrelevant to
the national economy; what is relevant is what companies A through Z ALL
do. If regulators see downsizing spreading through the national economy as
a way of improving profits, they should apply rules across the board that
nullify this particular strategy, for example by increasing unemployment
compensation taxes enough (retroactively) to cancel the savings (or some
such idea based on better understanding than I have). The point would be
to penalize or nullify strategies which, if pursued nationally, would lead
to disaster, while leaving all other possibilities unregulated, without
playing favorites, and without micromanaging.

I have to come up with a coherent reason why I don't like this. But until I do,
let me just say that this proposal looks a lot like economic micro managing to me.
Even though it would be applied to all employers, it seems to me that you are
meddling with micro level phenomena. I would rather let the micro process work as
they have. They seem to work pretty well, they just have some undesirable macro
side effects: poverty (unemployment) and leakage being the main ones. So I would
prefer macroeconomic policies that just address these side effects while letting
the micro process go on as before. A highly progressive income tax with a negative
income tax deals with both these side effects. Managers can lay off all they like
but the laid off workers who can't get employment elsewhere will get a living wage
level negative income tax return until they are employed. This "welfare" will be
paid for by the highly progressive income tax that comes from the employed and
(proportionately more) from their employers. If the tax is highly progressive it
will minimize the ill got gains of employers who lay off in order to increase
their own income (profit). Production and labor will still be carried out in the
same way, but now in the context of a "dues collection" system that discourages
avarice and eliminates the fear of financial ruination. This approach to the
economy also seems fairly politically neutral. At least, it is consistent with the
conservative dislike of micro management of production systems (a point of view
with which I heartily agree now that I have seen the damage that is done by well
intentioned regulation of the real estate business) and with the liberal dislike
of the maldistribution of wealth ( a point of view with which I also heartily
agree after having lived for years in a city where the ugliness of poverty exists
in close proximity to the ugliness of conspicuous wealth).

But it's all just a faint dream anyway as long as political bribery is considered
free speech.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Rick Marken (2002.10.24.1430)]

Bill Powers (2002.10.24.0908 MDT)--

Anyway, are layoffs really a morally acceptable strategy?

I think it would be morally acceptable (to me) if it were guaranteed that being
laid off would not result in poverty or even a decline in one's current standard
of living. I think it's an option that a manager has to have in an environment
where demand is unpredictable. But it's an option that is morally acceptable only
if the manager knows that it won't hurt the person being laid off.

This politically-neutral stance would seem to include socialism and
lassez-faire for the rich, so I guess it averages out to neutral.

I'd say it's socialism and some degree of laissez faire for employers. Not all
employers are rich. I am not really for laissez-faire; I think there should be
rules of the road for producers. I just think some rules can be self defeating.
Rent control, for example, does make housing affordable but it also reduces the
amount and quality of available housing. I would rather see the government help
people pay market rents (and mortgages) than try to fiddle with the market itself.

I don't really have any cures for the economic system. The longer I live
the stranger and more artificial the whole thing seems to me. Why should
some people be able to use power or wealth to make others do their bidding?
What's so great about a work ethic, when it benefits mainly those who don't
work? Are things as excruciatingly boring as buying and selling really all
there is to life?

Well I can certainly answer the last one: NO!!!

Maybe I've just been alive too long.

Not for my taste;-)

Love

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Bill Powers (2002.10.24.0908 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2002.10.23.2250)]
>this proposal looks a lot like economic micro managing to me.

Even though it would be applied to all employers, it seems to me that you are
meddling with micro level phenomena. I would rather let the micro process
work as
they have. They seem to work pretty well, they just have some undesirable
macro
side effects: poverty (unemployment) and leakage being the main ones.

My proposal was to increase unemployment insurance taxes when a lot of jobs
were being lost, to fill in the wages needed to buy the essentials of life.
Yours is to
impose a "highly progressive income tax that comes from the employed and
(proportionately more) from their employers." I don't see how that is much
different: you're still taking money from those who have it to give to
those who have lost their jobs. The only difference, it seems to me, is
that you would do this all the time instead of only when it's needed.

So I would
prefer macroeconomic policies that just address these side effects while
letting
the micro process go on as before.

But when is a policy a micro process (interaction among individual firms,
employees, and customers) and when are its effects general enough to be
called a macro process? If all companies decide to cut costs by laying off,
say, 20 percent of their employees, they will surely be able to produce
nearly as much product as before, assuming suitable increases in
productivity, but they will find that something between 10 and 20 percent
of what they produce will go unsold (depending on whether they also reduce
payments to people like me who live on capital income). The downward spiral
is inevitable.

Anyway, are layoffs really a morally acceptable strategy?

A highly progressive income tax with a negative
income tax deals with both these side effects. Managers can lay off all
they like
but the laid off workers who can't get employment elsewhere will get a
living wage
level negative income tax return until they are employed.

What is the money used for when there is full employment? I favor measures
that are put in effect only when needed. And where does that tax money come
from when businesses find they can't sell all that they're producing, and
have to downsize some more?

>This approach to the

economy also seems fairly politically neutral. At least, it is consistent
with the
conservative dislike of micro management of production systems (a point of
view
with which I heartily agree now that I have seen the damage that is done
by well
intentioned regulation of the real estate business) and with the liberal
dislike
of the maldistribution of wealth ( a point of view with which I also heartily
agree after having lived for years in a city where the ugliness of poverty
exists
in close proximity to the ugliness of conspicuous wealth).

This politically-neutral stance would seem to include socialism and
lassez-faire for the rich, so I guess it averages out to neutral.

I don't really have any cures for the economic system. The longer I live
the stranger and more artificial the whole thing seems to me. Why should
some people be able to use power or wealth to make others do their bidding?
What's so great about a work ethic, when it benefits mainly those who don't
work? Are things as excruciatingly boring as buying and selling really all
there is to life?

Maybe I've just been alive too long.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2002.10.24.1657 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2002.10.24.1430)--

> Anyway, are layoffs really a morally acceptable strategy?

I think it would be morally acceptable (to me) if it were guaranteed that
being
laid off would not result in poverty or even a decline in one's current
standard
of living. I think it's an option that a manager has to have in an
environment
where demand is unpredictable. But it's an option that is morally
acceptable only
if the manager knows that it won't hurt the person being laid off.

Yes, I'll go along with that, but there's a hitch: where will the money
come from to pay the people who have been laid off? If you think macro
rather than micro, the composite employer simply won't have it, so the
taxes won't get paid. Just carry your idea to its logical extreme, which is
always a good way to check the feasibility of propositions. Suppose that
half the workforce got laid off. Then the government would have to collect
in taxes exactly as much money as those people would have made, in order to
maintain them at the same standard of living. But there are only half as
many people working now, so unless you could suddenly double their
productivity, they would be unable to meet the demand. Or suppose that ALL
of them got laid off. The producers now use robots to produce everything.
But again, where will the government get the money to pay all the workers
who now have no jobs? They would have to tax the producers and give the
money to the former workers, who would then spend the money, which would
become income to the producers, who would have to give it all up in taxes.
Who would be a producer merely to collect money and hand it all to someone
else?

Having indulged myself, it's clear to me that the answers we need are not
to be found in this kind of verbal reasoning. We need a model to test
various proposals about what to do. We need a working model which will
simply carry out, quickly and accurately, the rules of the game as we
propose them, on a large enough scale and with a realistic enough
distribution of individual differences to yield believable results. Then we
can let the simulated government impose regressive taxes, or raise
workmens' compensation assessments, or lay people off and let them starve,
and see what the consequences will be. The whole point of putting out the
effort to construct a realistic model is to be able to carry out
experiments that are too expensive to try in real life, or too damaging to
people if we try the wrong things.

I think my Test Bed proposal would lead to a good working model, but I
can't do it alone.

Best,

Bill P.

···

> This politically-neutral stance would seem to include socialism and
> lassez-faire for the rich, so I guess it averages out to neutral.

I'd say it's socialism and some degree of laissez faire for employers. Not all
employers are rich. I am not really for laissez-faire; I think there should be
rules of the road for producers. I just think some rules can be self
defeating.
Rent control, for example, does make housing affordable but it also
reduces the
amount and quality of available housing. I would rather see the
government help
people pay market rents (and mortgages) than try to fiddle with the market
itself.

> I don't really have any cures for the economic system. The longer I live
> the stranger and more artificial the whole thing seems to me. Why should
> some people be able to use power or wealth to make others do their bidding?
> What's so great about a work ethic, when it benefits mainly those who don't
> work? Are things as excruciatingly boring as buying and selling really all
> there is to life?

Well I can certainly answer the last one: NO!!!

> Maybe I've just been alive too long.

Not for my taste;-)

Love

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

How about Post-Autistic PCT Psychology to help Bill get his Nobel Prise?

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Powers" <powers_w@FRONTIER.NET>
To: <CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: Nobel in Economics

[From Bill Powers (2002.10.20.21219 MDT)]

Bill Williams UMKC 20 September 2002 8:00 PM CST
>TAke a look at the "Post-Autistic economics"
>pages on the webb, and other links.

Thanks, Bill, I will.

[ From Samuel Saunders (2002.10.24.2020 MDT)]

A small point that I think Bill and Rick are overlooking as that people move
back and forth between being employers and employed. Some of those who
become unemployed get back into the economy by opening contract welding
shops, machine shops, pizza places, corner bars, mailbox centers, etc. It
is easy to overlook the fact that small business acconts for a major part of
employment, and the barrier for access to small business
management/ownership is not that high. More of those loosing jobs get
picked up by the bother-in-law or uncle Moe who can use an extra hand.
These people may have been making more money for less work in their previous
employeement, but they don't disappear as consumers when they move from big
business to small business.

Another important point that seems to have gotten little consideration is
that it is not usually that case that there is an across the board downturn
in employment. The steel industy may be laying off thousands, but at just
that time the petro-chemical industry may have more openings than
applicants. It is not much fun to be caught in the process, of course, but
this is one of the ways a market economy re-allocates resources to meet
changing situations.

Samuel

···

--
Samuel Spence Saunders, Ph.D. | If man chooses oblivion, he can go right
saunders@gwtc.net | on leaving his fate to political leaders.
ssaunders@olc.edu | If he chooses Utopia, he must initiate an
                                > enormous educational campaign-immediately
                                > R. Buckminster Fuller

[From Rick Marken (2002.10.24.2200)]

Bill Powers (2002.10.24.1657 MDT)

Yes, I'll go along with that, but there's a hitch: where will the money
come from to pay the people who have been laid off? If you think macro
rather than micro, the composite employer simply won't have it, so the
taxes won't get paid. Just carry your idea to its logical extreme, which is
always a good way to check the feasibility of propositions. Suppose that
half the workforce got laid off...

Having indulged myself, it's clear to me that the answers we need are not
to be found in this kind of verbal reasoning....

I think my Test Bed proposal would lead to a good working model, but I
can't do it alone.

I was basing my proposal on my own model based on your Dad's circular flow model.
Everything happens gradually and continuously in that model. In the model,
unemployment is a function of leakage, mainly. So unemployment goes up because not
enough of the available purchasing power (PQ) is being used to purchase goods and
services. This "leakage" of purchasing power out of the circular flow presumably
occurs because too much of PQ is being held by people who have too much income and
can't use it all for consumption. Progressive taxation redistributes this income,
thus increasing purchasing. Producers will meet this increase in demand by
increasing production by hiring more people. In theory, if the redistribution is
done properly, unemployment can be maintained at a constant level (whatever
society will accept). The (possibly small) number of unemployed remain part of the
demand component of the loop because they always get the redistributed tax money
(perhaps as negative income tax). The exact quantitative relationships would,
indeed, have to be worked using a model. But I think my version of the circular
flow model captures the basic qualitative relationships between some of the main
macro level economic variables.

And I think you underestimate your ability to do the modeling alone. I think you
can do it as well or better than any "real" economists.

Samuel Saunders (2002.10.24.2020 MDT)--

A small point that I think Bill and Rick are overlooking as that people move
back and forth between being employers and employed.

I'm trying not to ignore it. Indeed, I assume that this kind of job hopping is
going on at the market level (which is currently the unmodeled aspect) of the
circular flow model. Individual businesses may lay off workers but many of those
workers will go to other business or occupations. My proposals are aimed at the
aggregate level of unemployment, which goes up across all producers -- the
aggregate producer -- when demand (consumption capability) goes down as a result
of leakage. My assumption is that one of the main sources of leakage is
maldistribution of wealth. This assumption could be tested. It predicts that, all
things being equal, unemployment will increase as maldistribution of wealth
increases. The distribution of wealth would have to measured as the _after tax_
difference in income between, say, the upper and lower _after tax_ income
quartiles. I don't know if this data is available. I know that there is data on
_before tax_ income distribution but I don't recall seeing any measures of after
tax income distribution.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Rick Marken (2002.10.25.0930)]

Bill Powers (2002.10.25.0818 MDT)--

I agree with you, of course. But I think that the remedies you propose will
fail for the same reason the remedies my father proposed, and those that I
have proposed, would fail. They require strong governmental actions that
would be energetically, even violently, resisted by those who would be
required to relinquish a large chunk of their wealth and income -- not to
mention that the resistors would also be those who have lawmakers in their
pockets, due to bribery being considered equivalent to free speech, as you
have pointed out.

Yes. I agree, to some extent. But there was a time (after the depression) when the
tax rate in the US was _far_ more progressive than it is now (top rates were 90%
whereas now they are 35 to 40%) and the middle class was far large than it is now
and poverty rates were actually _lower_ then. In other words, things were closer
to my idea of how things should work economically back in the middle of the 20th
century. This has all been dismantled, of course, since the early 1980s. Clinton
tried his best to make things better in an incredibly reactionary environment but
ideology seems to have trumped good results.

There is only one approach that will work, in my opinion. That is to build
up a correct model of the system as it is, which shows exactly how the
system works when it works and how it fails when it fails.

Couldn't agree with you more! roosevelt got a lot of it right by accident and was
able to implement it because he was rich himself and amazingly cool. We obviously
can't count on that kind of enlightened leadership anymore so we have to show
people how the economy actually works. I still think you're the man to do it; I
still have to make a living a damn pay all these damn taxes;-)

Love

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Bill Powers (2002.10.25.0818 MDT)]

Samuel Saunders (2002.10.24.2020 MDT)]

A small point that I think Bill and Rick are overlooking as that people move
back and forth between being employers and employed. Some of those who
become unemployed get back into the economy by opening contract welding
shops, machine shops, pizza places, corner bars, mailbox centers, etc. It
is easy to overlook the fact that small business acconts for a major part of
employment, and the barrier for access to small business
management/ownership is not that high.

That's true, but it's also true that a significant fraction of small
businesses go broke (don't know the number offhand), so it's not quite as
easy as you say. Also, small businesses do not generally pay high wages --
they tend more toward the minimum-wage end, and complain about even that
floor. Some seem to pay as little as possible, zero if they can get away
with it, as some have done. One person may benefit greatly from starting a
small business, but those who are forced to compete for jobs in that
business must scratch in the dirt for pennies. Just look at the "Living
Wage" movements, and the screeching protests they draw from small businessmen.

A job is not really what counts. What counts is the wage paid -- that's
what determines buying power and standard of living. Layoffs in times of
recession do not generally result in moving workers to equivalent jobs;
they move to lower-paying jobs. It's hard for those who are well-off to
understand the desperation of people who have suddenly had their income cut
in half, or in many cases have had it reduced to zero, when they have never
been paid enough to build up savings. It's basically a very cruel system,
I'm sure you see this every day in your work on the reservation. Going to
work for Uncle Moe at $5.50 per hour ($11,000 per year) is no substitute
for doing construction work at $20 per hour ($40,000 per year). And even at
$40,000 per year, you don't accumulate enough capital (if any) to start a
small business. Most small businesses fail from undercapitalization.

>Another important point that seems to have gotten little consideration is

that it is not usually that case that there is an across the board downturn
in employment. The steel industy may be laying off thousands, but at just
that time the petro-chemical industry may have more openings than
applicants. It is not much fun to be caught in the process, of course, but
this is one of the ways a market economy re-allocates resources to meet
changing situations.

That's the cold-hearted economic theory, but "not much fun" doesn't really
capture the consequences of being the victim of this process. It's the kind
of gut-wrenching disaster that should never be allowed to happen to anyone.

Anyway, the real point in my view is that the present system simply doesn't
consider economic suffering to be important: what's important is that those
at the upper end of the scale, owners, lenders, stockholders, and so
on, maintain their income, even if this means that those at the lower end
have to receive nothing at all. "That's business," they say.

From the macroeconomic point of view, it's clear that what producers pay
out to consumers is identically what consumers have available to purchase
the output of the producers. The producer payout has to equal consumer
income, on the average, in constant dollars or yen or whatever, and over
the whole economy. The real battle is over the division of the payout
between those who work for it and those who don't. Those who work for it
are the ones doing the actual producing; those who don't are either owners
and lenders and so on who receive the bulk of capital income, or pensioners
like me who receive a smaller portion. When those who don't work for their
income demand a larger share of the total producer payout (and that group
includes the ones who decide how the money will be split), a lesser share
is available for those who work -- which means, to spend on the products
they themselves produce. The result of this arrangement has always been
that those who work are driven toward the lower limit of income, so that
some live below the subsistence level and must struggle simply to stay
alive, and many live at or just above the bare subsistence level, where
they can get by, but barely. At the other end, of course, the owners of
wealth wallow in more buying power than they know what to do with.

This is simply the result of the way we have organized our social system.
Those who live at the upper end of the scale love it and think of all kinds
of reasons (beside the real one) to keep things the same. Those who live at
the lower end are not so eager to see it continue the same way, and would
welcome any change that might improve their lot. particularly relative to
the way they see the rich people living. One doesn't have to be an advanced
student of reactive propulsion to see how the design of this social system
is guaranteed to result in conflict between people. It's simply an
amateurish design, which is not surprising since it was put together by
naive and greedy people (our ancestors) who just knew what they wanted and
went after it with little regard for the kind of system they were bringing
into being.

Rick Marken (2002.10.24.2200)

I agree with you, of course. But I think that the remedies you propose will
fail for the same reason the remedies my father proposed, and those that I
have proposed, would fail. They require strong governmental actions that
would be energetically, even violently, resisted by those who would be
required to relinquish a large chunk of their wealth and income -- not to
mention that the resistors would also be those who have lawmakers in their
pockets, due to bribery being considered equivalent to free speech, as you
have pointed out.

There is only one approach that will work, in my opinion. That is to build
up a correct model of the system as it is, which shows exactly how the
system works when it works and how it fails when it fails. Economists have
not done this, largely, I think, because they have either been solidly on
the side of capitalism and thus unable to analyze it objectively, or
solidly against it and just as unable to analyze it objectively. Either
way, the analysis becomes biased and the argument obfuscatory whenever the
facts seem to be leading to unwanted conclusions. What we need are people
who can analyze the economic system without caring how the result comes
out, except for being determined that it be correct.

I was extremely disappointed with my father's approach when he went beyond
his quite remarkable analysis of the system and started saying what we
should DO about it. The analysis was far from complete, and it was by no
means evident what actions could be taken that would make the situation any
different, not to mention any better. We must complete the analysis and
develop the model that will show BEYOND DOUBT the nature of the system and
the means by which it can be altered, or for that matter be preserved.

And then we must tell people about it. It's all too easy for people to grow
up thinking that the economic system around them is simply a fact of
nature, as unchangable as the courses of the planets. As long as people
think of economics that way, no force can produce any changes. Changes must
come from understanding how things are, and thus seeing how we could make
them more like the way we want them to be. Those who are in the system,
those who ARE the system, are the only ones who can change it, be they rich
or poor. If they understand what is going on, they will see what they have
to do. I have no doubt whatsoever that once they see what it is, enough
people will do the right thing. Seeing what the right thing is is the hard
part.

Best,

Bill P.

From Mary Powers 2002.10.26

That time you were referring to, with a 90% top tax rate, was called World
War II. It hit a lot of folks at the peak of their careers. My father, for
one, who grumbled some about it and let it go at that. Ronald Reagan, for
another, who as a result was wild to cut taxes and did, and I think passed
on an excessive and obsessive repugnance for taxing the rich to both the
Bushes...

Roosevelt could never have gotten that high tax rate through without a war
to pay for. The current Bush seems to think that he can cut taxes and then
have a war.

···

At 08:25 AM 10/25/2002, you wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2002.10.25.0930)]

...But there was a time (after the depression) when the
tax rate in the US was _far_ more progressive than it is now (top rates
were 90%
whereas now they are 35 to 40%) and the middle class was far large than it
is now
and poverty rates were actually _lower_ then. In other words, things were
closer
to my idea of how things should work economically back in the middle of
the 20th
century. This has all been dismantled, of course, since the early 1980s.