Not a peep?

[From Bill Powers (940502.1800 MDT)]

An interesting week on the net. A week or so ago, Rick Marken
announced that he was taking a two-month vacation to allow all those
who felt he had come down too hard on them to have their say without
criticism. He even promised not to make any comments on what
transpired while he was gone, when he comes back. What's interesting
is that we haven't heard a peep from anyone on this subject: no S-R
theorists venturing out into the daylight to have their say, no
social scientists or communications theorists or dynamic systems
analysts becoming emboldened, in fact nobody who felt unfairly
treated by the Thought Policeman uttering a word.

Of course Tom Bourbon and I are still lurking here, waiting for
unsuspecting prey. Would it be better if we, too, took a vacation
from CSG-L and removed even that threat? If enough people say yes,
then that could no doubt be arranged, too. But I wonder if something
else isn't the problem.

I wonder whether some of those who, pushing back against the
unremitting pressure from Rick, haven't found themselves in an
uncomfortable position now that there is nothing to push back
against. With the pressure removed, there's nothing to prevent the
pushee from proceeding in the direction that was formerly being so
energetically opposed by Rick. I wonder if some people seeing the
way clear aren't having second thoughts about whether they really
want to go in that direction.

After all, PCT is a new way of looking at behavior. Whatever is new
about it seems to have appealed to many people, especially those who
have stuck with CSG-L for a year, two years, three years. Something
that is both new and appealing must appeal because it speaks to
something that one's former ideas didn't take into account. It might
even be that what is new about PCT contradicts, in an interesting
way, things one formerly thought were true, or had accepted without
thinking much about it pro or con.

PCT and its methodology certainly conflict with what many older
theories have assumed to be true. An interesting feature of
conflicts that I have noticed is that when they are purely internal
-- when one is weighing opposing interpretations and goals without
external interference -- they can cause a great deal of inner
confusion and turmoil. But when a external agency comes along and
start pushing you toward one of the conflicted goals, all doubt
seems to disappear: you take the side of the other goal and
wholeheartedly push back. So with Rick pushing for total adherence
to the basic principles of PCT, those who are in conflict between
some other scheme and PCT found themselves freed of the internal
struggle and were able to defend their old beliefs in a refreshingly
single-minded way.

I would like to think that most people who have been around the net
for a while have a pretty clear picture of what PCT is about -- how
we assume behavior works. If that picture had been totally
unbelievable to someone, why would that person stick around to hear
more about it? But I'm also pretty confident that for a great many
participants and listeners, the concepts of PCT are hard to
assimilate into whatever previous understanding of human nature they
had already accepted. We've seen plenty of evidence of that.

Essentially everyone who has come onto the net with some well-
developed conception of how to approach understanding or modeling
human behavior has put up arguments. All those arguments have
amounted to saying the same thing: "Please tell me I haven't been
wasting my time!" Now the interesting thing to me is that these
arguments have had no common theme; that is, they haven't revealed
any consensus to the effect that there is some particular basic flaw
in PCT. Instead, whether the argument has come from the direction of
social science, control-system theory, behaviorism, religion,
neuroscience, systems science, linguistics, cybernetics, or any
other field, the brunt of the argument has been that perhaps PCT has
something fundamentally new to say about those _other_ fields, but
in _my_ field there are viable alternatives to it.

Maybe there are. Maybe in some fundamental way PCT fails to come to
grips with problems that are already handled by other fields -- in a
different way for each field. But if PCT failed in so many different
ways, it would be hard to understand what it is about PCT that has
attracted people from all these different fields. I think it is more
reasonable to assume that PCT has provided a single framework in
which many different facets of human nature fall into place and make
sense. But this way of cutting the diamond or the pie reveals
different things that are inconsistent with each other approach. It
just seems likely to me that the fault lies in these various fields,
each of which takes a narrow view of behavior to the exclusion of
other views. The sociologist and the psychotherapist, the linguist
and the behaviorist, the engineer and the personality theorist,
simply see behavior differently, and largely incompatibly. PCT is
set down in an arena among multitudes of competing and conflicting
ways of explaining behavior. And while eliciting no specific
criticisms from any quarter, it nevertheless is resisted from every
quarter, because in some way it implies that there is something
wrong with each other approach. Nobody has to say what the conflicts
are: just by being what it is, PCT makes the conflicts obvious to
anyone who looks for them.

I've complained about this before, and made resolutions I promptly
forgot, but I will bring it up again: you people out there on the
net have heard enough about PCT to try to offer your own
explanations. If you come up with some example of behavior that you
think challenges PCT, don't just throw it out on the table and wait
for some expert to provide a plausible answer. Try thinking like a
PCT theorist. If you don't get your feet wet you will never take the
plunge. And if you don't practice thinking in PCT terms, you will
remain stuck in whatever point of view you brought to this
discussion. Beyond a certain point, PCT is self-teaching: you can
work out the answers to your own questions, and in doing so will
resolve many of your conflicts about it. But you have to TRY. I've
probably made more wrong guesses and thought up more incomplete
explanations than anyone else, because I've been at it so long.
There's no shame in coming up with a wrong guess or an incomplete
explanation. That's how every "expert" on this net started,
including me. The only shame is in just sitting back and sniping,
letting someone else have the trouble of actually trying to find an
answer.

So what about it: should I disappear for a while, and Tom Bourbon
too, and whoever else has been defending the purity of PCT, to leave
the field free for dissenters? I'm willing, and I'll bet that the
others are, too. Will avoiding conflict between PCT and other
"suppressed" approaches further our understanding of human nature?
If so, then by all means let's try it. Any comments?

Best,

Bill P.

[Avery.Andrews 940503.1508]

Well, a bit of quiet is maybe not such a bad thing if people are getting
any work done--I think that a lot of the discussion has tended to be
Rick reacting to his perception of S-R assumptions behind things people
say, and their counter-reactions, a sort of discussion which I don't find
particularly enjoyable (as opposed to discussion of actual properties
of real systems and models). I don't think the problem is coming up
with data that can or can't be explained by PCT, but in figuring out
ways in which PCT can be applied to elucidate real situations. I have
for example spend a fair amount of time thinking about how to figure out what
tadpoles are controlling for when they resist being spilled out of
containers, but no results at this point.

Maybe there will be more from me when I get this house fixed up and on
the market (that is, when I will actually have time to make considered
responses to reactions to things I might say), but meanwhile, one of
the things I've been doing is Tai Chi.

What is interesting about this
from a PCT viewpoint is that it seems like a practice carefully calculated
to trigger reorganization of skeleto-muscular control systems. You make
very slow and deliberate movements, with the long term goal of getting
good coordination of upper and lower body movements. I think that this
might be a matter of developing good level 2 perceptions (sensations).
The low speeds of movement and often rather awkward-feeling positions
provide what ought to be ideal conditions for reorganization to produce
new postural sensations and control-systems for them.

Another principle is that you never go ballistic-any movement should be able
to be halted or reversed at any time (`walking like a cat', as opposed to
'walking like a dog'). So control of motions seems to be firmly based on
a prior control of postions, without shortcuts such as direct control of
velocity via control of muscle-tensions). Allegedly, these slow movements,
when they are learned well enough, can be executed with extreme rapidity, which suggests step-changes in reference levels for pre-established control-systems.
Tai Chi masters are supposed to be extremely difficult to shift around
to places they don't want to go, which also suggests a cultivation of
superior control-systems. I suppose I good test this by launching a
surprise-attack on one of the instructors, a very small and attractive
woman, but the other main instructor is her partner and a fairly
solidly built guy, so I think I'd be better off not trying out this
experiment.

There is also an interesting opposition between 'solid' and 'empty'.
A 'solid' leg is said to be one that is supporting weight, as opposed
to one that is not, but there seems to be a bit more to in that-in one
of the walking exercise we were told that a leg that was off the ground
wasn't completely empty if we couldn't move it around freely, which suggest
that a leg is empty if the balance control systems can work without making
any demands on it at all, either as a support or as a counterweight.

Well, back to house-work.

Avery.Andrews@anu.edu.au

[From Richard Thurman (940503.1400)]

Bill Powers (940502.1800 MDT)

An interesting week on the net. A week or so ago, Rick Marken
announced that he was taking a two-month vacation to allow all those
who felt he had come down too hard on them to have their say without
criticism. He even promised not to make any comments on what
transpired while he was gone, when he comes back. What's interesting
is that we haven't heard a peep from anyone on this subject: no S-R
theorists venturing out into the daylight to have their say, no
social scientists or communications theorists or dynamic systems
analysts becoming emboldened, in fact nobody who felt unfairly
treated by the Thought Policeman uttering a word.

Of course Tom Bourbon and I are still lurking here, waiting for
unsuspecting prey. Would it be better if we, too, took a vacation
from CSG-L and removed even that threat? If enough people say yes,
then that could no doubt be arranged, too. But I wonder if something
else isn't the problem.

Well... speaking personally, its something else. First, my e-mail
connection went flaky (in fact I posted some stuff that didn't seem
to make it.) Then when that stabilized I frankly was enjoying the
lull in the traffic to much. I used the time to catch up on some
things that would keep my job secure (due to an over fascination with
PCT). This lull in the traffic has allowed me to reflect on some
things though. So for me its not been all that bad.

As an explanation for others not filling in the RM gap -- that's quite
a gap to fill! I have been lurking on CSG-L for at least two years
and have been amazed at the volume of mail that has been produced. I
have endeavored to read _every_ word because its so valuable. But I
have to admit that the majority of that volume has been taken up with
both Rick and Martin going back and forth. Their messages came to
occupy a great deal of 'space.' Its only natural (I think) that with
both of them not posting stuff there seems to be a big hole. It may
take a while before the volume reaches its former level. I'm not
saying that they posted too much. I'm just saying that it will take
a lot to fill the gap.

As for people being ripped at Rick and accusing him of unrelenting
nastiness. I can only say that I _never_ imagined the nature of his
postings to be like that. What I did see was posting by someone who
was determined to clarify what PCT means (to him). I also saw his
postings as extremely humorous. Perhaps I was misreading but his
posts were full of jokes and friendly jibes. I can't speak for him
but I bet he was (would be) surprised to find out that others
considered his posts as offensive. I still don't think he understands
that people were personally offended by his comments. He was joking
around! Even when he got on the net and admitted that he was "such
an a__ hole" he was not referring to his friendly jibes. He was
referring to putting pressure on others to think PCT. He did not
(does not) see his humor as the thing that others were chaffing at.

I could be very wrong. I wish Rick would give up his self imposed
exile and tell me so!

···

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hans Blom (940503)

Hans -- you have been reading CSG-L at least as long as I. How is it
that you do not see?

This isn't the problem at all. The problem is the exclusivity that PCT
claims as the one and all theory, the theory to end all other theories as
insignificant. This is not acceptable to a scientist.

...

The basic problem
is the presumptuousness of PCT as the one and only theory that saves the
world. Very, very sectarian.

Who ever claimed that? I have repeatedly read where Bill P. said, "PCT
is only about perceptual control" and, "PCT is not a religion." It seems
to me that postings on CSG-L have been quite clear on this. If its an
attitude you are perceiving, perhaps its one of your own making. I don't
get that sentiment at all.

Although I find PCT a welcome addition to a set of
models/theories/tools that I possessed already when I met csg-l, by and in
itself it leaves too many holes for my taste. It is too coarse a web, I
find, to be able to lead to good solutions to practical problems. The web
is not even sufficiently dense to provide a common language of discourse
on csg-l!

PCT is only about perceptual control in living entities. Its not about
how to do fantastic engineering feats. To someone trained in "modern"
control theory, PCT does not even begin to compete. Its about how living
systems are organized. Not about neat engineering tricks, not about
developing new technologies. Its about finding how a living being
achieves consistent results in an inconsistent world. Not how thermostats
or cruise controls can be optimized. Its about the physiological makeup
of living beings. About how that makeup gives rise to the unique
characteristics all individuals exhibit. It is not how to make a
construction mimic a living thing.

I am well aware that many of these 'nots' have been discussed on CSG-L.
But these digressions are ancillary to PCT. In each of our fields of
inquiry we see how PCT can be applied (at least we begin to get a feeling
for how it could) and we comment on it. It adds a richness to the
discussions, but at its heart, PCT is only about how a living entity
controls perception(s).

In some cases Bill, Rick, Tom have built models of control systems that
help explain a phenomenon under study. In all these cases I am aware of
they were trying to explain how humans can control a set of perceptions.
I don't think they were trying to build an optimal human. As a control
engineer, you see their relatively crude attempts at building a control
system and conclude that they would be better off if they tried this or
that new method of optimal control (or whatever). What I don't think
you get is the idea that they are trying to model human neural physiology.
Its already wired! They don't get the chance to redesign it. Its done.
They are trying to reverse engineer! Not engineer!

Of course, as you say, PCT "leaves too many holes for my taste." You
are not even sitting at the same banquet table. You need to change
a reference level or two. Come sit at the table of PCT. Your obvious
expertise as a control engineer is needed. PCT needs your input but its
at a whole different level than you are tasting. When you said humans
operate open-loop when walking in the dark, you were not satisfied when
PCT'ers commented how other perceptual loops compensate. When you said
it was necessary to have internal models for control to work, others
showed how human neural physiology may not need it by giving you a crude
example of random reorganization (e.coli). Essentially you are sitting
at a banquet next to the PCT table. Your table is full of rich, lavish,
and tasty stuff. You are telling PCT what food should be on their table.
But PCT is plain and simple. Its basic staples.

PCT is not about how to fancy up a control system. Its about how to
discover the control systems already there and the perceptions that are
being controlled. Its basic staples. Show us how to do the basics.
Taste what its like to help the social sciences get themselves out of a
trap of their own making. Taste what its like to finally have a theory
of how humans operate that is based upon solid modeling (albeit simple)
instead of 75 years of statistics mongering. Savor the astonishment
when psychologists, psychiatrists, sociologists, counselors, teachers,
and trainers see for the first time in their careers the power of a
simple PCT model, instead of just another descriptive theory.

You are correct to imply that PCT is too simple. It will need to be
fleshed out with solid control theory. That is not why others have
taken ocassion with you. The only time(s) I am aware of anyone taking
exception to what you wrote is when you mixed solid control theory with
common misconceptions from the social sciences. PCT is not founded
upon upon the common misconception of control of output, nor is it
founded upon the common misconception of perception-based control. It
is based upon the control of perception plain and simple.

Swiss cheese has too many holes for my taste. But I like it just the
same. I just try to get more of it (gotta make up for those holes
somehow). If PCT has two many holes for your taste I suggest you do the
same.

Rich
--------------------------------------------------
Richard Thurman
Air Force Armstrong Lab
6001 S. Power Rd. BLDG. 558
Mesa AZ. 85206-0904

(602) 988-6561
Thurman@hrlban1.aircrew.asu.edu
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