output always if reference level is not 0?

CSGnet Archive CSG2010
1

I have a very simple question. I have studied the Live Block Diagram and If I understand correctly it demonstrates that as long as the reference value is not set at ‘0’, there is always error in the system and there is thus always output.

Here is what I do not understand:

If I am listening to my iPod and notice that the volume is too low, it results in error. My output is that I turn the volume button until the volume from the earphones matches my “reference volume”. I then stop turning the volume button because I detect no error, but my reference level is still greater than 0?

Where does my reason faulter here?

Regards,

Oliver Schauman

2

(Ted Cloak [02-10-2010 1729 MST])

The error level is the difference between the reference level
and the perceived level; in your case, that would be zero. Please look again.

HTH

Ted

I
have a very simple question. I have studied the Live Block Diagram and If I
understand correctly it demonstrates that as long as the reference
value is not set at ‘0’, there is always error in the system and there is
thus always output.

Here
is what I do not understand:

If
I am listening to my iPod and notice that the volume is too low, it results in
error. My output is that I turn the volume button until the volume from the
earphones matches my “reference volume”. I then stop turning the
volume button because I detect no error, but my reference level is still
greater than 0?

Where
does my reason faulter here?

Regards,

Oliver
Schauman

3

[From Bill Powers (2010.02.10.1813)]

I have a very simple question. I
have studied the Live Block Diagram and If I understand correctly
it demonstrates that as long as the reference value is not set at ‘0’,
there is always error in the system and there is thus always output.

Here is what I do not
understand:

If I am listening to my iPod and notice that the volume is too low, it
results in error. My output is that I turn the volume button until the
volume from the earphones matches my “reference volume”. I then
stop turning the volume button because I detect no error, but my
reference level is still greater than 0?

Good observation. The simplest answer is that the turning action
continues until the error is too small to make it go on any further. But
the turning action might be produced by an “integrating” output
function, in which case the error could be too small to measure. An
integrating output function keeps increasing the output at a rate
determined by the current error signal. As long as there is any
detectable error, the output keeps changing, though it changes more and
more slowly as the error shrinks.

Remember that the reference level refers to the perception, not the
action. If you want to hear zero volume, the reference level will be set
to zero. The reference level is defined as the amount of input required
to make the effect of the output on the controlled variable exactly zero.
In a “proportional” control system the output is proportional
to the error, so there has to be some error to maintain the output.
However, the amplification in the output function determines how much
error that will be. If the amplification in the output function is 100,
the error will be 1% of the reference signal’s magnitude. I don’t think
you would object to a 1% error in the volume setting – and if you did,
all you would need to do would be to set the reference signal 1% higher
(or lower) than your target amount.

When you slowly vary the reference signal in the live block diagram, you
will see that the perceptual signal tracks it. If you want the volume
higher, you set the reference signal higher.

Best,

Bill P.

···

At 12:09 AM 2/11/2010 +0000, Oliver Schauman wrote:

4

(Gavin Ritz
2010.02.11.17.10NZT)

I have a very simple question. I
have studied the Live Block Diagram and If I understand correctly it
demonstrates that as long as the reference value is not set at ‘0’, there
is always error in the system and there is thus always output.

I think, and I know there are a few on the
list who decidedly tell me I’m incorrect, that at the highest possible
level in PCT, the reference level can never be zero. It’s always positive
due to the fact the energy is being transformed in every single brain cell all
the time. I fact it’s even more significant that there may even be quantum
effects at this level. After all, the ATP Synthase molecule is a proton engine.

Regards

Gavin

···
5

[From Bill Powers (2010.02.11.0753 MST)]

Gavin Ritz
2010.02.11.17.10NZT –

IOliver Schauman: I have a very
simple question. I have studied the Live Block Diagram and If I
understand correctly it demonstrates that as long as the reference
value is not set at ‘0’, there is always error in the system and there is
thus always output.

GR: I think, and I
know there are a few on the list who decidedly tell me I’m incorrect,
that at the highest possible level in PCT, the reference level can never
be zero. It’s always positive due to the fact the energy is being
transformed in every single brain cell all the time. I fact it’s even
more significant that there may even be quantum effects at this level.
After all, the ATP Synthase molecule is a proton
engine.

The reference level can be zero at any organizational level of the
hierarchy. The reference level (the effect of the reference signal that
is accessible to an outside observer) is the target toward which behavior
alters the input quantity (also observable from outside). It can be set
to any value. At the highest level in the hierarchy, a reference signal
set to zero says that the perceptual signal is to be maintained at zero.
That is equivalent to avoiding that perception. My reference level for
fascism is zero.

The usage of energy has no more to do with how the brain works than
current from a battery has to do with how an iPod works. The energy
supply is necessary, but how it’s used depends on the organization of the
circuits and how the circuits are related to the world outside
them.

Energy is not a thing or a substance. It’s a calculation. You can
transform the potential energy of water in an elevated reservoir into
electrical energy simply by multiplying the number of foot-pounds by
1.355 times to get joules or watt-seconds, times an efficiency factor
that tells how much work will be done by the generators against friction
and other non-useful factors. This does not mean there is something in
the water that gets into the electricity. The electrical energy number in
joules contains no trace of evidence about where it came from. It would
be the same number no matter what its metaphorical source. It’s just a
(very handy) calculation.

Best,

Bill P.

6

(Gavin Ritz 2010.02.12.13.45NZT)

[From Bill Powers (2010.02.11.0753 MST)]
Gavin Ritz 2010.02.11.17.10NZT –

IOliver Schauman: I have a
very simple question. I have studied the Live Block Diagram and If I understand
correctly it demonstrates that as long as the reference value is not set
at ‘0’, there is always error in the system and there is thus always output.

GR: I
think, and I know there are a few on the list who decidedly tell me I’m
incorrect, that at the highest possible level in PCT, the reference level can
never be zero. It’s always positive due to the fact the energy is being
transformed in every single brain cell all the time. I fact it’s even
more significant that there may even be quantum effects at this level. After
all, the ATP Synthase molecule is a proton engine.

The reference level can be zero at any organizational level of the hierarchy.
The reference level (the effect of the reference signal that is accessible to
an outside observer) is the target toward which behavior alters the input
quantity (also observable from outside). It can be set to any value. At the
highest level in the hierarchy, a reference signal set to zero says that the
perceptual signal is to be maintained at zero. That is equivalent to avoiding
that perception.

I’m
going to get back to this issue about zero signals at the highest level in the
human nervous system.

My
reference level for fascism is zero.

Can you
please explain how you get to this?

The usage of energy has no more to do with how the brain works than current
from a battery has to do with how an iPod works.

I
disagree, firstly the analogy is not that appropriate (see my reasoning below),
an iPod and a battery are inanimate in every single way whereas the brain as
connected to the human body is animate. Secondly living organism are informed energy
(matter) this is now an agreed assumption. (Dawkins, Atkins, Davies)

The
energy supply is necessary, but how it’s used depends on the organization of
the circuits and how the circuits are related to the world outside them.

This
part is correct. That depends what type of circuits you are talking about. In a
normal electrical circuits the structure (wire) and the process (electron
movement) are both inanimate (and at one level only) whereas in an living
organism this is the opposite, the structure (nervous arterials) and the
process (signals) are very much alive (informed matter DNA and amino acids in a bi-conditional
relationship) at two dependent levels (system and cells).

So one
cannot make direct machine analogies with living organisms.

Energy is not a thing or a substance. It’s a calculation.

Yes,
very much a calculation but it’s very much a substance too. Matter by its
sheer existence is energy. (Richard Feynman, Albert Einstein). In fact it’s also a very smart calculation that works very
well.

You
can transform the potential energy of water in an elevated reservoir into
electrical energy simply by multiplying the number of foot-pounds by 1.355 times
to get joules or watt-seconds, times an efficiency factor that tells how much
work will be done by the generators against friction and other non-useful
factors.

Yes this
is just one of the transformations one can do.

This
does not mean there is something in the water that gets into the electricity.

The
electrical energy number in joules contains no trace of evidence about where it
came from.

Not exactly
sure what you mean by this. Science has shown that electrical energy comes from
a number of sources (this is the point of the first law of thermodynamics) and
the second laws is the nature of the quality of this energy that can be
converted into work. Our thoughts are work (and that includes signals).

It
would be the same number no matter what its metaphorical source. It’s just a
(very handy) calculation.

This analogy
with water and electricity has to do with the conversion of gravitational energy
into electrical energy with losses. This is only one form of energy conversion.
Chemical kinetics is another and that has everything to do with the brain, the
nervous system and signals.

And
there is also an energy cost of transmitting a signal and that is 0.693kT
joules/bit so even information is energy. This is the argument around Maxwell’s Demon.

Hot
bodies also emit electromagnetic waves and this is also a form of energy.

Every
signal in the universe must by the nature of the universe have an energy component
otherwise it would not exist. (Atkins).

I think we’re
differing at a very fundamental level about the interpretation of the nature of
living organisms. From my vantage point you seem to be using machine analogies for
living entities and secondly your interpretation of energy is not one that I
think I’m fully grasping or read before.

Regards

Gavin

···