PC PCT, etc

Dear CSG Netters,

Regarding [ Abrams (991204.2226) ]

Sanctimonious? Wow!! I dunno, I had planned this as a final private note,
but given the importance of what we are trying to achieve with the PCT
research project, I thought I would show how "passion" misdirected can take
us away from our goal. Thus, I felt that a little high-fidelity feedback
from the CSG environment to the control sytem in question might be a good
parting comment for the moment.

In my earlier note, I must have been Testing the Self as a Control System
(apologies, Dick), and not truly aware how my self-declared standards of
behavior were thoroughly disturbing to the writer's CVs! *8-?}
Accordingly, the writer input energy to his environment, but must have
forgotten that I was a living control system (ouch!). In the following, you
can see how, to the writer quoted, he makes me ballistic* as any child's
_kick_ ball:

···

------
* non-living, non-control system.

from [ Marc Abrams (991204.2226) ]

Concerning my point: <Here, he cut his nonpareil insult to me, showing
only my lame *8-?, request for politeness! See Thalhammer (991204.2050
CST) for my complete text.>
Prude/Miss Manners: "If the shoe fits wear it."
Rude: "If it offends I am truely sorry, but it's who I am (and want to be)."
PCC: "Excuse me?"
Golden Rule: <He cut that, too. Major world ethics traditions notwithstanding.>
_My_ Opinion: "What you 'appreciate' and don't is none of my concern."
Ad Hominum: "It ain't a g-ddamn School Lab."
Main players: "Big of you. It's BS like this that make me want to throw
up. What a sanctimoniuous bucnch [sic] of @#$%@%."

I really prefer not to be coerced in such a non-PCT manner, which CV is
driving my efforts here, I guess. Moreover, if we want to achieve our
goals, I see no purpose in pounding our colleagues randomly about the head
and ears. It may be thought to be fashionable these days to heap abuse on
those we disagree with, but I believe this is counterproductive and
essentially debases our discourse. I want the writer to know that I have
standards for behavior in public, and I would like to exchange my views in
a forum free of (at least) such ad hominum attacks ('cause such intelligent
people oughta be able to do better!!!). Leave such breaches of logic to the
politicos. So, with this, you can see the CVs I maintain. *8-?/ I guess I
had to attempt to offer some corrections to my perception of myself
on-line, in order to reduce my error. I realize that some control systems
out there may not perceive this as anything more than out-of-date
goody-two-shoes prating. But I see other, more compelling, evidence that
the CVs I am maintaining are perceived and able to be affected, according
to reference levels that are shared by more people than just myself...

I broke my word about not posting further this last time, but apparently I
was still experiencing some surplus error in my perception of my public
self-image. Since I am generally confident about my system image and
principles, I will now get back to the grind.

Peace,

Bryan (and now, away.....!)

[From Rick Marken (991205.1730)]

Bryan Thalhammer (991204.2050 CST) --

I'm glad you've been sharing your feelings about the tone
of CSGNet discussions. I agree with your guess that a new
software system will do little to change this state of affiars.
Discussions get intense when people disagree. I think the best
way to deal with CSGNet discussions is to just ignore the
contentious chaff and enjoy the glorious wheat (like Bill
Powers' last few essays).

CSGNet is not (and was not expected to be) a love in. It is a
place to talk about PCT. And PCT often makes people mad. When
people are mad they act in ways that they often later regret.
I think the best way to deal with this is the same way you
deal with a kid throwing a tantrum: ignore it.

I'm saying this because I don't want you (or anyone) to avoid
asking questions or making contributions to CSGNet out of
fear of people throwing tantrums. If someone throws a tantrum
(or what you see as a tantrum) just ignore it. It's tough
to do this -- I know! But, again, I think the benefits of
the CSGNet wheat far outweight the costs of the CSGNet chaff.

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Rick Marken (991206.0720)]

Marc Abrams (991206.0831) --

My purpose from the beginning was toward one goal. _utilizing_
the archives.as a basis for discussion.

Good goal! We've covered the same topics many times. There
are always new twists but it would be good to have access to
the archives so we don't repeat too much.

It will also help people who for whatever reason want
to restrict there efforts to certain topics and or people.

Ok. Though I can't see how a software package could make
this any easier than it is now: just hit the <delete> button;-).

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

from [ Marc Abrams (991206.0831) ]

My purpose from the beginning was toward one goal. _utilizing_ the archives.
as a basis for discussion. It summarizes everyhing we know and everything we
have done over the last 10 years. The software is _immaterial_. It's simply
a vehicle for using the archives.

I do bebelieve that it will also help new comers, since they won't have to
lurk for months waiting for something of interest to them. It will also help
people who for whatever reason want to restrict there efforts to certain
topics and or people.

Marc

[From Bill Curry (991206.1000 EST)]

Marc Abrams (991206.0831)

My purpose from the beginning was toward one goal. _utilizing_ the archives.
as a basis for discussion. It summarizes everyhing we know and everything we
have done over the last 10 years. The software is _immaterial_. It's simply
a vehicle for using the archives.

Are you saying that the entire archives will be posited and accessible there
under subject headings, or are you talking only prospectively?

Regards,

Bill

···

--
William J. Curry, III 941-395.0088
Capticom, Inc. capticom@olsusa.com

[From Samuel Saunders (991206:1402 EST) ]

>From [ Marc Abrams (991206.1053) ]

> [From Rick Marken (991206.0720)]

> Ok. Though I can't see how a software package could make
> this any easier than it is now: just hit the <delete> button;-).

It's not so much a matter of avoiding people as not in being _overwhelmed_
with either the number of posts or topics of no interest to individuals. For
example. I might want to see everything Bill posts regardless of the topic
and I don't want to see any posts on Education. I would still see any posts
Bill might make to the Education area but nothing else.

These things are not set in concrete :-). You can change as you see fit.

Marc

You can do this sort of filtering with Email filters in your MTA (mail
transfer agent, i.e. mailer software). You can generally filter on any
header field in the Email, and most modern MTAs allow rules as complicated
as you want to develop (like nothing with eduation in the subject unless

I am not sure if the point Bryan T. made about off-line reading got across,
so I will repeat it again. I use a cron script to contact my ISP several
times a day, get any waiting mail, and send along any outgoing mail. When I
have a chance to read CSG, I read any mail that has been delivered since the
last time I read CSG. By using this method, I can set the script to call my
ISP at times when calls are cheaper, and I don't tie up the telephone while
I am reading Email, but only as long as it takes to download the mail. If
the discussion software is going to require reading CSG on line, that would
be a significant inconveniece to anyonw who uses offline reading as I do.

Perhaps your discussion software would be a good place to introduce the
summary procedures rescently suggested. When threads are getting tangled or
nearing resolution, someone could suggest "lets take it to discussion" and
then open a thread on the web which would allow full integration with the
archives and all the things you want. For newer posters, we could make an
effort to refer to related material on the web.

···

On Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 10:58:34AM -0500, Marc Abrams wrote:
From: includes Powers)

--
Samuel Spence Saunders, Ph.D.
ssaunde@ibm.net

from [ Marc Abrams (991206.1047) ]

[From Bill Curry (991206.1000 EST)]

Are you saying that the entire archives will be posited and accessible

there

under subject headings, or are you talking only prospectively?

The entire enchilada. I am currently in July of '93. As the threads become
available they will go on the web site.

I will be posting a thread subject list shortly. I need some help in
consolidating the titles and making a workable indesx There are currently
approx 160 different subject threads that I have categorized. I am sure some
can be consolidated.

Marc

from [ Marc Abrams (991206.1053) ]

[From Rick Marken (991206.0720)]

Ok. Though I can't see how a software package could make
this any easier than it is now: just hit the <delete> button;-).

It's not so much a matter of avoiding people as not in being _overwhelmed_
with either the number of posts or topics of no interest to individuals. For
example. I might want to see everything Bill posts regardless of the topic
and I don't want to see any posts on Education. I would still see any posts
Bill might make to the Education area but nothing else.

These things are not set in concrete :-). You can change as you see fit.

Marc