PCT exam

[From Stefan Balke (01.01.20)]

The teachers I know are not very interested in learning PCT, with a few
exceptions. They understand a control loop and the application to an
everyday classroom situation. But that's all. They are not ready to accept
PCT as a help to understand the nature of men as living control systems. Why
should they? PCT gives an explanation why they don't want to change. They
control for their beliefs. They are not willing to change their old
reference values concerning their philosophies of dealing with students.
Those who are already thinking and working in a respectful way will stay on
doing this and the others stay on their way. I don't see that a teacher at
an RTP school changes his overall view because of the RTP.

RTP leads to a (short-time) reduction in their errors because they have a
means to get rid of the disruptive student by sending him to the RTC. The
sentence: "I see _you_ have choosen ..." means to the speaker "It's _your_
problem, not _mine_ , therefore I don't have to think about my beliefs, my
actions and their intended and unintended effects, this is your task." The
error reduction leads to the effect that the teacher doesn't reflect
himself.

It is necessary to talk regularly about PCT to improve the own
understanding. This leads to the idea that the teachers at a PCT-based RTP
school should have to pass an formal or informal examination on PCT (one
question could be": what are possible side-effects of the phrase: "I see you
have choosen... :slight_smile: ) and also the students would have to pass such PCT
exams. Once the students are interested in learning PCT it will also be
easier to talk about discipline problems. Bringing PCT to the schools means
to teach it. We have to make clear why the PCT view is more appropriate than
other views of behavior. The explanation should be of practical help for the
reader, who is not a scientist.

The first step could be, that the members of CSG develop and pass a PCT
exam. Afterwards we could be well-informed multiplicators.

Best regards,
Stefan

[From Stefan Balke (01.01.20)]

Bruce Gregory (2001.0120.1441)

A very elegant analysis.

Thanks for saying this. To be precise, this was a teacher report translated
into PCT'ish. They said originally: "I need something that works for me, and
it works, so I have my head free for the other things in the classroom. I
think they go to the "Trainingsraum" (RTC)because they have to and they want
to avoid negative consequences."

The only thing that puzzles me is why you believe
that understanding PCT would change the situation.

I think in terms of likelihood here. Someone who understood the mechanism
can handle it, _if he wants_,

Do you have any
evidence, say from CSGnet, that individuals who try to understand PCT are
any more willing than others to reflect on their actions and their

intended

and unintended effects?

There are two points. I thought about the possibility to think in an
appropriate, orderly form. This possibility will surely increase. Another
point is the desire to do this. That depends on the principles of the
persons in question and not on the attempt to understand PCT. This question
can only be answered by everybody self. At CSGnet I noticed clear evidence
in at least two cases: After Bill read that I asked for an idiom in one post
(duct tape) he explained another one (cut to the chase) specifically for the
non-Americans. I think that he became aware of an unintended effect
(non-Americans have problems to follow slang) and acted to achieve that
everybody can understand him. (is this correct mind reading, Bill ? :slight_smile:
Another example was the case of the html-emails. I (and maybe some others as
well) changed their email-settings to avoid the unintended effect that
plain-text-only readers have problems with html-code. I also think of other
examples but they are more complex and it is more likely that I fail with my
mind-reading attempts.

I'm curious, do you also have some examples in mind?

Best regards
Stefan

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0120.1441)]

Stefan Balke (01.01.20)

RTP leads to a (short-time) reduction in their errors because they have a
means to get rid of the disruptive student by sending him to the RTC. The
sentence: "I see _you_ have choosen ..." means to the speaker "It's _your_
problem, not _mine_ , therefore I don't have to think about my beliefs, my
actions and their intended and unintended effects, this is your task." The
error reduction leads to the effect that the teacher doesn't reflect
himself.

A very elegant analysis. The only thing that puzzles me is why you believe
that understanding PCT would change the situation. Do you have any
evidence, say from CSGnet, that individuals who try to understand PCT are
any more willing than others to reflect on their actions and their intended
and unintended effects?

BG

[From Rick Marken (01.01.20.1530)]

Stefan Balke (01.01.20)

The teachers I know are not very interested in learning PCT,
with a few exceptions... Those who are already thinking and
working in a respectful way will stay on doing this and the
others stay on their way. I don't see that a teacher at
an RTP school changes his overall view because of the RTP.

I agree. Neither RTP nor PCT can change a disrespectful into
a respectful person (or make a disrespectful person out of one
who is respectful). But I do think that, by learning how to do
RTP properly, even a disrespectful person can learn to deal with
students in an essentially respectful manner.

RTP leads to a (short-time) reduction in their errors because
they have a means to get rid of the disruptive student by sending
him to the RTC.

I think it could lead to a long term reduction of their errors
(assuming the source of these errors is disturbances to their
ability to teach and have a friendly class environment) if they
just keep practicing RTP as I understand it: respect the kids,
avoid conflict and maintain an orderly classroom.

It is necessary to talk regularly about PCT to improve the own
understanding. This leads to the idea that the teachers at a
PCT-based RTP school should have to pass an formal or informal
examination on PCT

I don't think this is really necessary. I agree with Bruce Gregory
(2001.0120.1441) on this: learning PCT will not necessarily make
people good teachers. In fact, it's probably not important that
teachers know much about PCT at all. I think that all the teachers
need to know in order to be able to run an orderly and friendly
classroom is the RTP process and the goals of that process. The
teacher should learn, for example, that the process involves asking
disruptive kids questions like "what are you doing" and that the
goal of doing this is to get the kid to stop disrupting without
provoking a more intense conflict with the kid. The teacher should
learn that the process involves asking disruptive kids to go to the
RTC and that the goal is to end conflict in the classroom, letting
the teacher teach while others deal with the disruptive kids.

I think teaching PCT is a good way to sell the program. PCT
is also a good way to justify the program's recommended
procedures. And PCT should be a good basis for changing and
improving the program. But I don't think learning PCT is
important for the practitioners. All they have to know is
math, science, reading/writing, music, physical education and
RTP.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2001.01.21.0558 MST)]

Stefan Balke (01.01.20)--

The teachers I know are not very interested in learning PCT, with a few
exceptions. They understand a control loop and the application to an
everyday classroom situation. But that's all. They are not ready to accept
PCT as a help to understand the nature of men as living control systems.

I think you have to state your position on this very clearly. If they agree
that the system they're using is not producing good social results, and
they are looking to you to provide some answers to their problems, then
they have to make a contract with you to try your whole method, not just
play around with the parts they like. The whole point of a PCT-based
program is to behave according to a certain understanding of how people
work. If you understand that people are control systems, you will not
bother trying to alter their behavior by putting pressure on them: they
will just push back. "Maybe you (the teachers) have some other explanation
for why your school is such a mess, but if you want me to help you, you at
least have to try out my explanation. I claim that you're causing the
problem and therefore have the power to solve it by changing the way you do
things."

Why
should they? PCT gives an explanation why they don't want to change. They
control for their beliefs. They are not willing to change their old
reference values concerning their philosophies of dealing with students.
Those who are already thinking and working in a respectful way will stay on
doing this and the others stay on their way. I don't see that a teacher at
an RTP school changes his overall view because of the RTP.

What PCT can do for you, even with people who don't understand it, is to
provide a scientific justification for saying things they might not agree
with. You can demonstrate the basic principles using rubber bands (you must
follow the demonstrations by making sure each person gets the point and can
apply the principles to real life). If they come to understand you, they
_will_ change their overall beliefs.

You have to keep hammering on the basic question: "Is what you're doing
getting you what you want?" I think I would make that an expected phrase:
"All right, people, what's the basic question here?" And they should all
answer out loud, "Is what I'm doing getting me what I want?" That should
settle a lot of arguments about doing things they way they have always been
done. The first thing required before change can begin is to admit that the
old way hasn't been working.

Also, you have to get the people to go up a level or two. You have to ask
straight questions: "Do you disagree with what I am saying? Are you going
to go on doing things the old way no matter what I say? Are you personally
supportive of this program, and willing to give it an honest try? If I
promise always to tell you the truth about what I think, will you promise
the same thing to me?"

RTP leads to a (short-time) reduction in their errors because they have a
means to get rid of the disruptive student by sending him to the RTC. The
sentence: "I see _you_ have chosen ..." means to the speaker "It's _your_
problem, not _mine_ , therefore I don't have to think about my beliefs, my
actions and their intended and unintended effects, this is your task." The
error reduction leads to the effect that the teacher doesn't reflect
himself.

Beautifully said. So how can you keep that from happening? Only by saying
it out loud: "Don't try to teach students responsibility by refusing to
take it yourself. Always be the first to set an example." And always,
always, go up a level. "Is this embarrassing for you? What are you thinking
about the idea of changing what you do? Does all this seem impossible to
do? Does it seem wrong, according to what you know or have been told?" And
of course other questions based on what they reveal to you. And "Is doing
it that way getting you what you want?"

It is necessary to talk regularly about PCT to improve the own
understanding. This leads to the idea that the teachers at a PCT-based RTP
school should have to pass an formal or informal examination on PCT (one
question could be": what are possible side-effects of the phrase: "I see you
have choosen... :slight_smile: ) and also the students would have to pass such PCT
exams.

I like this idea, but not as a basis for rewarding or punishing anyone. I
remember a physics teacher in college who announced that he was not going
to grade weekly quizzes: they were to be used strictly as checklists, to
see if we had understood what he wanted us to understand. I think everyone
started looking forward to those weekly quizzes: they really bolstered our
confidence. If you test people on their understanding of PCT, I hope you'll
do it that way. What about a question-answer-discussion column in a weekly
or monthly newsletter (perhaps via email)?

Once the students are interested in learning PCT it will also be
easier to talk about discipline problems. Bringing PCT to the schools means
to teach it. We have to make clear why the PCT view is more appropriate than
other views of behavior. The explanation should be of practical help for the
reader, who is not a scientist.

We hear a lot about Ed Ford's program, and not very much about Tom Bourbon,
who spends a great deal of his time at schools teaching PCT to everyone. It
_is_ possible to teach it. And according to Tom, success depends a great
deal on how well PCT is learned. I agree completely with you on this.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (01.01.21.0920)]

Stefan Balke (01.01.20)--

The sentence: "I see _you_ have chosen ..." means to the speaker
"It's _your_ problem, not _mine_ , therefore I don't have to think
about my beliefs, my actions and their intended and unintended
effects, this is your task."...

Bill Powers (2001.01.21.0558 MST)--

Beautifully said.

I agree!

So how can you keep that from happening? Only by saying it out
loud: "Don't try to teach students responsibility by refusing to
take it yourself. Always be the first to set an example."

If, as you claim, a knowledge of PCT is crucial to the success of
RTP then why have none of the PCT experts in the RTP program --
indeed, why has no one involved with the RTP program (other than
Stefan) -- said anything like this "out loud"? Or does "out loud"
mean only saying it orally, never in print?

I'm beginning to think that PCT is to RTP as the dancing frog was
to the old construction worker in that classic Chuck Jones Warner
Bros. cartoon; it only "does its thing" when I'm not looking;-)

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0120.1441)]

The only thing that puzzles me is why you believe

that understanding PCT would change the situation. Do you have any
evidence, say from CSGnet, that individuals who try to understand PCT are
any more willing than others to reflect on their actions and their

intended

and unintended effects?

Since I read Power's BCP about 20 years ago, I feel I apply it to both
reflecting on my own behaviour and that of others ..... and mostly with good
results. In doing workshops with teachers and staff development workshops
with provincial gov't bureaucrats, I would also include a few words
contrasting PCT with SR theory. I would include in my endorsement a
statement that PCT fit in with all I'd learned about the brain when I called
myself a neurophysiologist.
David Wolsk
Victoria, BC Canada

[From Rick Marken (01.01.21.1620)]

Bill Powers (2001.01.21.0558 MST)--

It _is_ possible to teach [PCT]. And according to Tom, success
depends a great deal on how well PCT is learned. I agree
completely with you [Stefan] on this.

I agree that learning PCT might help but I really can't believe
that it is essential. I would have to see some data on this.
Perhaps Stefan's exam is the answer. I would like to see if the
success of RTP schools depends on the scores on Stefan's PCT
exam. I think that your prediction would be that the higher the
average PCT exam score for the teachers in a school the more
successful the school. I predict that there will be no relationship
at all.

The reason I make this prediction is that I have seen no evidence
that people who understand PCT well are any more respectful towards
people than people who don't. I, for example, think I understand
PCT pretty well, yet I am disrespectful, hateful, mean, slanderous,
and conceited, at least according to some people on CSGNet,
including you. I, of course, think I'm a reasonably decent guy with
the usual compliment of minor flaws. But that's not important. If
an understanding of PCT really worked to make people more respectful
in their relationships with others then I would certainly not be
seen as disrespectful, hateful, mean, slanderous, and conceited.
So I am living proof that an understanding of PCT does not produce
people who are respectful, loving, kind, honest, and humble.

Of course, from my perspective, many of the other people who
understand PCT well regularly act in a way that is disrespectful,
hateful, mean, slanderous, and conceited. I would be tempted to
conclude from this that an understanding of PCT makes people _less_
respectful towards others were it not for the fact that I know
so many people who do understand PCT quite well and are,
nevertheless, wonderfully respectful, loving, kind, honest, and
humble.

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

[From Stefan Balke (23.01.01)]

Bill Powers (2001.01.21.0558 MST)

You have to keep hammering on the basic question: "Is what you're doing
getting you what you want?" I think I would make that an expected phrase:
"All right, people, what's the basic question here?" And they should all
answer out loud, "Is what I'm doing getting me what I want?" That should
settle a lot of arguments about doing things they way they have always

been

done. The first thing required before change can begin is to admit that

the

old way hasn't been working.

Thanks for this encouraging advice. Fortunately I asked the teachers of a
school via questionnaire before the introduction of the program: "what do
you already do against disruptions". I asked them to rank their methods by
effectivity and frequency of usage. The result was that everybody knew that
he mostly used the less effective method. This was the method to simply
counteract a disturbance by telling more or less angry "let it be".

I'll integrate your questions in my book as leading questions.

We hear a lot about Ed Ford's program, and not very much about Tom

Bourbon.

Tom Bourbon just reported on RTPnet that they were busy with a RTP-PCT
workshop.

Best regards,
Stefan

[From Bill Powers (2001.01.25.0851 MST)]

Stefan Balke (23.01.01)--

Thanks for this encouraging advice. Fortunately I asked the teachers of a
school via questionnaire before the introduction of the program: "what do
you already do against disruptions". I asked them to rank their methods by
effectivity and frequency of usage. The result was that everybody knew that
he mostly used the less effective method. This was the method to simply
counteract a disturbance by telling more or less angry "let it be".

Very nice.

I'll integrate your questions in my book as leading questions.

Well, that's going a bit too far. How about just considering the ideas and
presenting the the ones you agree with?

Tom Bourbon just reported on RTPnet that they were busy with a RTP-PCT
workshop.

I heard from him, too. There were 22 RTP people who spent an intensive
three days doing my demos and a number of Rick's and Tom's experiments,
learning how to understand PCT for themselves. They don't seem to be
waiting around for anyone else to approve of them.

Best,

Bill P.