PCT Grace (repeat?)

[From Rick Marken (950905.1730)]

I sent the post below some time ago but never saw it on the net
or got an ACK from the listserver. I apologize if this is a repeat,
but I would like to see what people think of these ideas.

Best

Rick

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[From Rick Marken (950905.1400)]

Marc Abrams asked me (privately) for my thougts on the following exchange:

I said:

I thought I was just trying to be scientifically honest and correct; what I
was really doing was trying to browbeat people into seeing things my way. I
was trying to win.

Marc Abrams (950395) replied:

Yep. How do you account for this with your PCT background? I am seriously
interested. Maybe there are other considerations when it comes to
interpersonal relationships, and PCT currently does not account for
_all_ the behavior.

I think Marc is asking how I account for the way I act in some of my
interactions on the net ("browbeating, trying to win") given my (presumed)
understanding of PCT. I don't think there is really any mystery. Just because
you understand PCT doesn't mean that you stop being a control system.

What I was doing on the net -- and what was creating interpersonal conflict -
- was _controlling_. PCT shows that _controlling_ is what people do --
ALWAYS. We can't stop controlling; we are perceptual control systems.
Conflict is expected when perceptual control systems interact; if the people
with whom I was intereacting were not percpetual control systems themselves,
there would have been no conflict.

PCT suggets that people (including PCT experts) will avoid conflict only if
they _want_ to; PCT doesn't say whether they should or should not want to
avoid conflict. But PCT does show that, as the intensity of a conflict goes
up, the ability to control goes down. So, PCT does suggest that if you want
to be in control, you will avoid conflict.

PCT suggests that the first step towards getting out of a conflict is taken
when you recognize that you are in one. But it is hard to tell when you are
in a conflict whether you are an expert in PCT or not. Recognizing that you
are in a conflict is a "meta" PCT phenomenon (at the moment); it is a
consciousness phenomenon; it requires a change in your conscious point of
view (apparently). Nothing in PCT explains the nature of consciousness (yet);
so nothing in PCT can tell you how to change your conscious point of view.
Most of what we know about changing your conscious point of view -- the
process called the _method of levels_ - - is based on informal experiential
studies of consciousness carried out by Bill Powers and others.

The fact of the matter is that when you are in a conflict it is very, very
difficult to see that you are in one. It is hard to see a conflict from
anything except the point of view of the systems that are trying to get what
they want. It was very hard for me, for example, to see my conflict with Ed
from anything other than the point of view of the system that was controling
for seeing PCT described in a particular way.

I don't know why it is hard to see that you are in a conflict when you are
in it -- and PCT has nothing to say about why this is true. But based on my
own experience of being in conflicts (inter and intra personal) and based on
my experience o fwatching others in conflict it seems that it is true;
everyone, whether they know PCT or not, seems to have a hard time changing
their conscious perspective on a conflict. I do think that people who
understand PCT and the "meta PCT" of the method of levels have a better
chance of becoming conscious of conflicts than those who don't -- but
knowing PCT doesn't guarantee that one will always take this perspective on
one's own conflicts.

PCT shows that conflicts are likely when two or more high gain controllers
end up controlling the same or a similar perception; this is what happens
when people discuss ideas on the net; when we discuss ideas on this net, we
are controlling perceptions (of the nature of human nature, for example) that
are important to us (or we don't discuss them). It is not surprising that
there will be interpersonal conflict.

PCT helps us understand what conflict is and it helps us recognize conflict
when it is happening. But it doesn't automatically change us into Christ or
Buddha. Meta PCT can (and does -- as I can testify) help us see when we,
ourselves, are in (and contributing to) a conflict; it helps us go up a level
and see how what we want is preventing us from getting what we want. But it
can't guarantee that we will reach a state of grace.

And, as I recall, even Jesus got pissed off at a tree for not bearing any
fruit.

Even when we know the way, we don't always manage to take it.

Best

Rick

[Hans Blom, 950907e] Catching up, as you see...

(Martin Taylor 950906 11:40)

The word "conflict" has not been given a scientific content yet, as
far as I know.

Within PCT, as I understand it, "conflict" occurs when two scalar control
systems control perceptual signals that map onto non-orthogonal CEVs in the
environment. The actions of either control system serve as disturbances to
the other.

Such a definition makes the term "conflict" essentially meaningless, since
CEVs in the environment will never be exactly orthogonal (through "unintend-
ed" side effects). That implies that there will, in practice, always be more
or less conflict.

But this prompts a question: is learning / reorganization an attempt to
orthogonalize CEVs?

Greetings,

Hans

[Martin Taylor 950920 11:30] (Back from 12 days away, and catching up)

Hans Blom, 950907e

Within PCT, as I understand it, "conflict" occurs when two scalar control
systems control perceptual signals that map onto non-orthogonal CEVs in the
environment. The actions of either control system serve as disturbances to
the other.

Such a definition makes the term "conflict" essentially meaningless, since
CEVs in the environment will never be exactly orthogonal (through "unintend-
ed" side effects).

Side effects have no connection, either conceptual or physical, with a CEV.

A CEV is a function of the environment that is defined by a perceptual
function. Whether or not this CEV is affected by some output from a control
system is irrelevant. It is the external correlate of a perceptual signal.
Two CEVs are orthogonal if the perceptual functions that define them are
orthogonal. (I probably should have said parallel CEVs lead to conflict,
because if the CEVs define a sufficient basis space, it doesn't matter
that they are non-orthogonal--they can still avoid conflict, though not
mutual disturbance during control activity).

Now if two orthogonal CEVs are in fact correlates of controlled perceptions,
it is quite possible, and even likely, that the side effects of controlling
one will affect (as a disturbance) the other. That does not engender
conflict, since the other can control against the disturbance. Conflict
comes about when two perceptions CANNOT both attain their reference values
at the same time. That happens when the two CEVs are parallel (except for
a non-generic set of reference values).

At the risk of muddying the waters, I suppose that there might be some
merit in considering a different kind of environmental variable, one defined
not by the perceptual function of an ECS, but by its output function. If
two output functions are non-orthogonal, each will act as a disturbance to
the environmental variable defined by the other. But these output-defined
EVs (ODEVs?) are not the controlled CEVs defined by the perceptual functions
of those control systems.

The degree to which the ODEV of an ECS correlates with the controlled CEV
of the same ECS determines the amount of side-effects associated with
the controlling activity of the ECS. Perfectly adapted control systems
would have ODEVs colinear with their CCEVs, and would generate no side-effects.
Such control systems would be maximally efficient, and would generate
minimal disturbances in other parts of any hierarchy of which they formed
part. Inasmuch as disturbance is always associated with some error, however
small, and inasmuch as error is thought to be associated with reorganization,
your question:

But this prompts a question: is learning / reorganization an attempt to
orthogonalize CEVs?

can be answered "In part, yes." But only in part, and as a side
effect of what reorganization is really about--controlling "intrinsic"
variables.

Without being too serious about it, I might suggest that whereas parallel
controlled CEVs lead to conflict, non-orthogonal ODEVs lead to irritation.

···

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640 more messages to look at...This is probably too quick and incoherent,
and probably your question has been answered in one of the 640.

Till later.

Martin