PCT in the workplace?

[From Bruce Abbott (981018.1045 EST)]

Rick Marken (981018.1815)

Me:

psychologists (like Bruce Abbott) believe that environmental
events control behavior.

Bruce Abbott (981018.1920 EST)

If you're going to tell this little fairy tale, Rick, at least
get your facts straight.

1. Bruce Abbott doesn't believe that environmental events control
    behavior, not in the sense that you mean "control."

I meant "control" in the sense that you mean "control" (whatever
that is). A PCTer doesn't believe that the environment controls
behavior, in _any_ sense of the word "control"; the environment
is _controlled_ by behavior.

So you are saying that a PCTer doesn't believe that the environment has any
strong influence on behavior. That is what "control" means in one sense of
the word -- exerts a strong influence on. Thus a PCTer doesn't believe
that, for example, disturbances have any strong influence on actions. Wow,
I learn something new here every day.

If all control theory can do is tell managers that they can't do
their jobs, it isn't going to become very popular.

Well, now you know why control theory isn't going to become very
popular... at least in the near future. The problem is that many
managers seem to assume that there job is to control people.

Well "that there job" of theirs is to somehow get those under them to do
what the managers need them to do. Failure can cost the manager his or her
job, or even worse. If arranging things so that employees do what is asked
of them is what you call "controlling people," then it is the manager's job
to control people. If managers assume this, then it would appear they do so
for good reason!

Control
theory doesn't tell these managers that they can't so their job;
it just says that, if they see their job to be "controlling" then
they are going to experience constant conflict.

No, control theory doesn't say anything of the sort. It says that if they
don't do their controlling properly, they are going to experience constant
conflict.

As a control theorist myself, I would tell managers to arrange
work conditions so that employees can achieve control over many
variables important to them (self-esteem, job satisfaction, morale,
perception of being treated fairly, fair wage for good work, and so
on)

How did you determine that employees are controlling these
variables? How did you determine that control of these variables
was important to every employee? You don't mention suggesting
to the manager that s/he negotiate with the employees before
arranging work conditions so that employees can achieve control;
what if many -- or most -- employees think the manager's well-
intentioned arrangements suck?

Finding out what variables employees are controlling in the workplace is an
important part of the program, although I surmise that certain ones are
extremely common among employees, in which case a manager who assumed them
would be doing well with most people. The list I gave merely provided
possible examples.

This advice avoids the conflict problem emphasized in your
advice while helping managers to get what they want, too.

This advice is behaviorism re-phrased in PCT-speak, something you
do with considerable aplomb.

It's not just talking the talk -- it applies control theory correctly to the
problem. If that is true, then I wouldn't spend two seconds worrying that
it may also be consistent with a behavioral analysis. If you think that
it's an incorrect application, then it is up to you to demonstrate such. So
far you've done nothing more than cast aspersions.

Regards,

Bruce

[From Rick Marken (981018.2020)]

Bruce Abbott (981018.1045 EST)

So you are saying that a PCTer doesn't believe that the
environment has any strong influence on behavior.

Correct. Environmental variables influence controlled variables;
they don't directly influence behavior (actions). The relationship
between environmental and behavioral variables is not really a
big deal in PCT; it's just a side effect of the control process --
one that has conventional psychologists in rapt enthrall but,
still, not of fundamental importance from a PCT percspective.

Failure can cost the manager his or her job, or even worse.

So the manager's boss is controlling the manager.

If arranging things so that employees do what is asked of them
is what you call "controlling people," then it is the manager's
job to control people.

Yes. That's what I call "controlling people". What do you call it?

No, control theory doesn't say anything of the sort. It says
that if they don't do their controlling properly, they are going
to experience constant conflict.

Yes. That's what I said. Controlling other people leads to conflict.
The managers will come into conflict with their bosses because their
bosses are controlling them (making sure they -- the managers --
control their employees).

Me:

How did you determine that employees are controlling these
variables?

Bruce:

Finding out what variables employees are controlling in the
workplace is an important part of the program

That's nice. But it doesn't tell me how you determined what the
employees are controlling for.

The list I gave merely provided possible examples.

Is the list based on any research aimed at testing for controlled
variables?

Me:

This advice is behaviorism re-phrased in PCT-speak, something you
do with considerable aplomb.

Bruce:

It's not just talking the talk -- it applies control theory
correctly to the problem. If that is true, then I wouldn't
spend two seconds worrying that it may also be consistent with
a behavioral analysis.

I bet you would spend more time worrying if the analysis turned
out to be _inconsistent_ with a behavioral analysis.

If you think that it's an incorrect application, then it is up
to you to demonstrate such.

The "incorrect" part of the analysis is the assumption that your
benevolent controller (manager) can arrange things so that the
employees get what they want while the manager gets what s/he
wants. To do this, the manager would have to know _precisely_ all
variables that all employees were controlling at all times. I think
it's highly unlikely that a manager would have the time to find
out even informally (and, hence, imprecisely) about more than a
few such variables for each employee.

I think what you left out of your analysis is "sensativity"; a
willingness on the part of the manager to lower the gain on
his/her controlling when necessary (when it appears that there
is conflict). Short of conducting daily negotiations with employees,
I think the only way for a manager to minimize conflicts while
coordinating (a form of controlling) the activities of a group of
control systems is by being sensative to what the employees want;
to notice when employees are "pushing back" against the manager's
(well intentioned) contingencies and to "lighten up" when they are.
I think a good manager is like a good RTP teacher; s/he knows what
behavior she wants from others but s/he doesn't control their
behavior without constant regard and respect for their needs and
wants.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

From [ Marc Abrams (981019.0130) ]

[From Rick Marken (981018.2020)]

Bruce Abbott (981018.1045 EST)

First, thanks for answering my questions before entering
into your rhetoric BS.

So you are saying that a PCTer doesn't believe that the
environment has any strong influence on behavior.

Correct. Environmental variables influence controlled
variables; they don't directly influence behavior

(actions). >The relationship between environmental and
behavioral >variables is not really a big deal in PCT; it's
just a side effect >of the control process --

How would you know what is or is not a big deal in the PCT
model with regard to the real world? Your tracking
experiments? Kinda doubt it.

one that has conventional psychologists in rapt enthrall

but,

still, not of fundamental importance from a PCT

percspective.

Let me guess. From a PCT perspective it's that little ol' cv
rascal we can't seem to pin down.

Failure can cost the manager his or her job, or even
worse.

Probably the reason Rick hasn't done anything at his
company.

Rick:

So the manager's boss is controlling the manager.

Trying to anyway. Is that big news?

Bruce Abbott:

If arranging things so that employees do what is asked of
them is what you call "controlling people," then it is the
manager's job to control people.

Yes. That's what I call "controlling people". What do you

call >it?

_Trying_ to control people. Doesn't always work. Is that a
big surprise?

Bruce Abbott:

No, control theory doesn't say anything of the sort. It

says

that if they don't do their controlling properly, they

are >>going to experience constant conflict.

Rick:

Yes. That's what I said. Controlling other people leads to
conflict. The managers will come into conflict with their
bosses because their bosses are controlling them (making
sure they -- the managers -- control their employees).

How do you know? Is that your relationship at work? or has
that been found in your research? You didn't get that all
from rubber bands did you? I don't disagree with your
assessment. I also don't need to know PCT for that insight.

Rick ti bruce Abbott

How did you determine that employees are controlling
these variables?

The same way you found yours.

Rick to Bruce Abbott:

That's nice. But it doesn't tell me how you determined what
the employees are controlling for.

Rick, what a _great_ question. Maybe some day you will
answer it the 3 times I have asked.Then we _all_ will know.
Glad your working on it.

Bruce Abbott:

The list I gave merely provided possible examples.

Rick:

Is the list based on any research aimed at testing for
controlled variables?

Aren't you currently sharing the same research list?

Rick:

This advice is behaviorism re-phrased in PCT-speak,
something you do with considerable aplomb.

This sounds serious. maybe boiling him in oil and then tar
and feathering him will straighten him out. If that doesn't
work lets ban him from the list and never speak his name
again.

Bruce:

It's not just talking the talk -- it applies control

theory

correctly to the problem. If that is true, then I

wouldn't

spend two seconds worrying that it may also be consistent
with a behavioral analysis.

Rick:

I bet you would spend more time worrying if the analysis
turned out to be _inconsistent_ with a behavioral analysis.

Wow !!, Rick did you just perform the test and I didn't see
it. You are good. Now I can see how you know so much. Can
you share this with the list.

Bruce:

If you think that it's an incorrect application, then it

is up

to you to demonstrate such.

Rick:

The "incorrect" part of the analysis is the assumption that
your benevolent controller (manager) can arrange things so
that the employees get what they want while the manager
gets what s/he wants. To do this, the manager would have to
know _precisely_ all variables that all employees were
controlling at all times.

Not only can you do the test at supersonic speed. Your
_research_ is even more remarkable. I bet your the only
person who has ever stood a sharpened pencil on it's pont
for minutes on end because according to theories in Physics
there is no reason it should not be able to be done. I might
be a horse's ass but one of Bruce Abbott's rats shared that
with me. It's a conspiracy

Rick:

I think it's highly unlikely that a manager would have the

time >to find out even informally (and, hence, imprecisely)
about >more than a few such variables for each employee.

How many do you think Rick?, How many are there?.and how do
you know which the important ones really are? That is _why_
are you doing the test in the first place. why does it
matter to you what the person is controlling for?

Rick:

I think what you left out of your analysis is

"sensativity"; a

willingness on the part of the manager to lower the gain on
his/her controlling when necessary (when it appears that
there is conflict). Short of conducting daily negotiations

with >employees, I think the only way for a manager to
minimize >conflicts while coordinating (a form of
controlling) the >activities of a group of control systems
is by being sensative >to what the employees want; to notice
when employees are >"pushing back" against the manager's
(well intentioned) >contingencies and to "lighten up" when
they are.

This of course coming from your extensive research and
implementation at work of such a program. You've been
holding back on us.

Rick:

I think a good manager is like a good RTP teacher; s/he
knows what behavior she wants from others but s/he doesn't
control their behavior without constant regard and respect

for >their needs and wants.

Yes, and we all know of your extensive experience in the
field with RTP. I feel a lot more comfortable now about your
remarks about those business situations.

Marc