Pissing match technique (was ... A gedanken Experiment)

[Martin Taylor 2017.01.01.15.32]

Happy New Year to all.

[From Rick Marken (2016.12.31.1420)]

…

  RM: But maybe next year (like tomorrow;-)

you could answer your exercise on collectively controlled
stability – the one that I was unable to answer.

I think I will wait until January 20, to give you a little more time

to consider the possibilities. You do have all the background
information you need, and you have been linked to a much greater
store of information than you actually need. If nothing else helps,
meditate on the gedanken experiment, substituting a wide variety of
things both tangible and intangible for the Puck and pebbles.

But this message is on a different matter that is of some PCT

interest – the technique of creating a pissing match. That is
something I never considered to be an actual reference value for a
controlled perception until Bruce said he was interested in the
gedanken experiment and its result, but not in a pissing match about
it.

Unfortunately, that ought to be a joke, but probably is just a

statement of fact despite the emoticon. Let’s follow a couple of the
techniques by way of the gedanken experiment example.

Technique A: Dispute the premise, misunderstanding what it was to

show, and present an alternative result that was actually the result
originally of interest. When I agree with that result, assert that
it’s not PCT, and is therefore wrong or irrelevant.

  Example:

    A1. I propose an experiment that seems to suggest that one

cannot tell by testing the control of a single variable whether the
controller is controlling a single perceptual value at one reference
value or is the result of many individual controllers all
controlling their perceptions to their differing reference values. I
suggest that the hypothetical experimenter “Dee”, being a good PCT
student, might look at her results and realize that she could not
know whether there is a unitary controller directing the individual
actors.

A2. Rick says that for Dee to hypothesise the existence of a unitary

controller was “cockamamie”, and that he would not have hypothesized
a unitary actor and would have considered only the performance of
the distributed players.

A3. I say that Rick's acceptance of the possibility of distributed

controllers was all I needed to make the point of the experiment,
which was that when you do the TCV, you are not necessarily
determining a single perception that is controlled, but might be a
virtual perceptual signal that is explained as an averaging of
signals in the individual control elements. I refrained from
commenting on whatever else Rick said, since given his agreement,
everything else was moot.

A4. Rick contradicts himself. He says he has no idea what a virtual

perceptual signal is, and that PCT “explains the existence of
observed reference states for controlled variables in terms of the
existence of neural reference signals that specify the state of
perceptual signals that correspond to variations in those controlled
variable.” I read this as saying that PCT is not compatible with the
point of the experiment, to show that what is apparently controlled
could be the result of a multitude of neural pathways, without the
necessary existence of any place in the brain that holds a unitary
perceptual value that is controlled to match a unitary reference
value. Rick’s answer seems a direct contradiction to Rick’s earlier
statement that for Dee to admit a hypothesised unitary controlled
perception is a “cockamamie” idea.

Technique B. Bring up as many red herrings as possible, to distract

from the original point, and keep it going by contradicting yourself
without acknowledging your change of thought.

Example:

B1. In describing the experiment initially, I say that Dee performs

the TCV and discovers that the position of the Puck is controlled
rather than being the result of a bowl-like configuration of the
table on which the Puck slides.

B2. Rick says Dee cannot deduce anything useful because she has done

the TCV incorrectly, and says that if I or someone else does not
explain why her procedure was incorrect, he will post an explanation
on Xmas Day. He says he is “infuriated” by the incorrect use of the
TCV.

B3. I cannot see any problem with the way Dee did the TCV, but I

hazard a couple of rather out-of-left-field guesses as to what he
might say on Xmas Day, and list what I think are the requisite tests
involved in the TCV. There are four, the last of which has three
independent variants (4a, 4b, and 4c), of which Dee used 4b. Rick
offers no explanation on Xmas day, but offers one a couple of days
later.

B4. Rick asserts that only variant 4a is acceptable and Dee did not

do it. He also claims that 4a and 4c are effectively the same,
despite their rather dramatic mathematical differences (which
corresponds to a pissing-match technique not used in this example
but has been used to fuel other pissing contests: “I don’t care
about math; I care about phenomena.”).

B5. I ask how Rick would apply variant 4a in the classic

“car-in-lane” example of control, given that the obstacles to doing
so are exactly those that prevent Dee from using it. (And I ask why
4b and 4c are unacceptable, given that he uses them in his own
demos).

B6. Rick says 4b and 4c are indeed sometimes acceptable, but does

not explain why they are not in this case. In respect of the
car-in-lane question, he says “Simple” and proceeds to describe just
what Dee did in the original experimental description, which is not
variant 4a at all, but a test of criterion 2. Dee’s “infuriating”
incorrect performance of the TCV turns out to be how he would
actually perform the TCV in an analogous situation.

···

Martin Taylor (2016.12.31.10.31)

MT: No, Rick, I won’t get drawn into your pissing match.

RM: Well, I tried;-)

[From Rick Marken (2017.01.02.1210)]

···

Martin Taylor (2017.01.01.15.32)–

  RM: But maybe next year (like tomorrow;-)

you could answer your exercise on collectively controlled
stability – the one that I was unable to answer.
MT: I think I will wait until January 20, to give you a little more time
to consider the possibilities…If nothing else helps,
meditate on the gedanken experiment, substituting a wide variety of
things both tangible and intangible for the Puck and pebbles.

RM: I presume, then, that your example of a collectively controlled stability has something to do with the US election. I can’t think of anything about the election that is equivalent to the virtual reference state of the puck maintained in that state by a bunch of people throwing pebbles. It can’t be something about the person who will be occupying the position of president — not political position, qualifications, demeanor, etc – since, if it were, it would be someone between Trump and Clinton on this variable. So unless you are willing to tell me before the inauguration I guess I’ll have to wait until January 21st to find out what it is. Funny way to do science.

MT: But this message is on a different matter that is of some PCT

interest – the technique of creating a pissing match.

RM: So is your concept of scientific dialog that you get to say whatever you want and if someone disagrees with you (especially if it’s me) then it’s a “pissing match”? This, and the fact that you say you won’t tell me the answer to your “exercise” on collective control, suggests that you may have more in common with Trump than you might want to imagine. He also dislikes having people disagree with his proposals and is happy to delay telling people about his “wonderful” replacement for Obamacare or his privileged knowledge about the (lack of?) Russian election hacking until his audience has forgotten about it (if they even care).

MT: Technique A: Dispute the premise, misunderstanding what it was to

show, and present an alternative result that was actually the result
originally of interest. When I agree with that result, assert that
it’s not PCT, and is therefore wrong or irrelevant.

MT: Example:

A1. I propose an experiment that seems to suggest that one

cannot tell by testing the control of a single variable whether the
controller is controlling a single perceptual value at one reference
value or is the result of many individual controllers all
controlling their perceptions to their differing reference values. I
suggest that the hypothetical experimenter “Dee”, being a good PCT
student, might look at her results and realize that she could not
know whether there is a unitary controller directing the individual
actors.

RM: And I pointed out that your description of the TCV as carried out by Dee was incorrect, mainly because you implied that she started by looking for a return of the hypothetical controlled variable to its original location. But she came to the correct conclusion, anyway, that the position of the puck was a controlled variable. And since she could see all the players throwing pebbles at the puck it would have been reasonable to infer that this control is being exerted by some or all of the players. And if Dee were actually a good student of PCT she would have known before even performing the test that it did not address the question of whether there is a unitary controller directing these individual actors. All the test will tell you is whether or not the hypothesized controlled variable is under control.

MT: A2. Rick says that for Dee to hypothesise the existence of a unitary

controller was “cockamamie”, and that he would not have hypothesized
a unitary actor and would have considered only the performance of
the distributed players.

RM: It was “cockamamie” because she could see that control was being exerted by the individual players. Whether these players were being directed by another, unitary controller can be addressed by research once it has been established that the position of the puck is actually a controlled variable, controlled by the players throwing their pebbles.

MT: A3. I say that Rick's acceptance of the possibility of distributed

controllers was all I needed to make the point of the experiment,
which was that when you do the TCV, you are not necessarily
determining a single perception that is controlled, but might be a
virtual perceptual signal that is explained as an averaging of
signals in the individual control elements. I refrained from
commenting on whatever else Rick said, since given his agreement,
everything else was moot.

RM: What I “accepted” was that your gedanken experiment describes a situation where several players are acting (by throwing pebbles) to control the position of a puck. It does not make the point that you say it makes. The TCV identifies one controlled variable at a time. The TCV you describe identified the position of the puck-- rather than it’s size, shape, etc – as a controlled variable. The next step is to develop a model that can account for this observation. That model will most likely have each player controlling a perceptual signal corresponding to the position of the puck (seen from the player’s position) relative to a reference specification for the value of that signal. The model might start by assuming that all players have a reference for the puck being in the same position. This model says that the observed reference state of the position of the puck is not virtual but the state desired by all of the players. This could then be tested (by removing players, for example). If, as is likely, this results in a change in the reference position of the puck then the observed reference state of the puck is virtual and the model must be changed, by changing the references in all the players, so that the reference state of the puck changes in the model as it does in reality when players are removed.

MT: A4. Rick contradicts himself. He says he has no idea what a virtual

perceptual signal is, and that PCT “explains the existence of
observed reference states for controlled variables in terms of the
existence of neural reference signals that specify the state of
perceptual signals that correspond to variations in those controlled
variable.”

RM: How is this a contradiction? There is no such thing as a “virtual perceptual signal” in PCT; there is only a virtual reference state of a controlled variable. The virtual reference state is an observation; a fact that is explained by a theory that says two or more control systems are trying to keep a perceptual signal corresponding to the same aspect of the environment matching different reference specifications. The states of those perceptual signals are actual, not virtual, even though, in each individual controller, those perceptual signal do not match the reference signal.

MT: Technique B. Bring up as many red herrings as possible, to distract

from the original point, and keep it going by contradicting yourself
without acknowledging your change of thought.

MT: Example:

B1. In describing the experiment initially, I say that Dee performs

the TCV and discovers that the position of the Puck is controlled
rather than being the result of a bowl-like configuration of the
table on which the Puck slides.

B2. Rick says Dee cannot deduce anything useful because she has done

the TCV incorrectly, and says that if I or someone else does not
explain why her procedure was incorrect, he will post an explanation
on Xmas Day. He says he is “infuriated” by the incorrect use of the
TCV.

RM: I don’t remember saying I was “infuriated” about anything but it’s possible that I was.

MT: B3. I cannot see any problem with the way Dee did the TCV, but I

hazard a couple of rather out-of-left-field guesses as to what he
might say on Xmas Day, and list what I think are the requisite tests
involved in the TCV. There are four, the last of which has three
independent variants (4a, 4b, and 4c), of which Dee used 4b. Rick
offers no explanation on Xmas day, but offers one a couple of days
later.

RM: I was hoping someone else would notice the problem with your description of the TCV: that Dee was looking for a return to the original position of the puck after removal of a disturbance rather than looking to see whether the effect of the disturbance was what was expected. But I see that I was doing to you what you are doing that annoys me, which is saying “I’ll get back to you with the answer later”. So I won’t do that any more. But I did get back to you on it pretty quickly and gave you what I think was a fairly clear description of what was wrong with Dee’s TCV. I hope you’ll do the same soon when you explain the example of a collectively controlled stability that is equivalent to that of the puck in your gedanken experiment.

MT: A pissing match is easy. It's much harder to offer serious arguments

against something with which you disagree, or to ask questions
designed to further understanding in respect of things you don’t
understand. It’s very, very much harder to do either when the other
person is intent on developing a pissing match. That’s why I am
setting a New Year’s resolution not to get involved in them (a
resolution that, like so many others, I am likely not to be able to
keep).

RM: I’m sorry that my arguments seem unserious to you. They are seriously considered. I’m not arguing just for the sake of being contrary. And I know that my arguments are not always correct. But I think there is an error correcting process that goes on in these discussions; I don’t imagine that I am typing out revealed truth. I’m just a fallible person – perhaps more fallible than others – who is interested in understanding the nature of the purposeful behavior of organisms. From my perspective, these net discussions are a way of honing in on something closer to “the truth” about this phenomenon. So I would like to thank you for staying with these discussions as long as you have. Though they may seem like nothing more than a pissing contest to you they have almost always ended up being of some benefit to me inasmuch as they have led to the development of demos and/or publications that I like to think have made useful contributions to PCT.

MT: But I guess pissing matches can be fun for some -- not for me, and I

think not for the onlookers.

RM: I hope you will stick with this “pissing match” at least until you can give me an example of a collective social stability that is equivalent to that described in your gedanken experiment. I really want to know what you (and Kent) are talking about.

Best regards

Rick

Martin

–
Richard S. Marken

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for
others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for
themselves.” – William T. Powers