# Pleasure (was Re: Brown and Herrnstein)

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/pleasure-was-re-brown-and-herrnstein/8901>\
**Category:** CSG2000\
**Created:** [October 9, 2000, 2:41pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/pleasure-was-re-brown-and-herrnstein/8901 "2000-10-09T14:41:55Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 1\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Richard_Marken2)\
**Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 2:41pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/pleasure-was-re-brown-and-herrnstein/8901/1 "2000-10-09T14:41:55Z")

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[From Rick Marken (2000.10.09.0745)]

Bruce Abbott (2000.10.08.1920 EST)--

> So what you are claiming is that all those pleasurable and  
> unpleasurable things you wrote about evoke no feelings in  
> you of pleasure or displeasure.

When I pay attention to what I am perceiving I don't notice  
separate perceptions that I would call pleasure or displeasure.  
Maybe what you are calling "evoked feelings of pleasure" are the  
visceral sensations (perceptions) that accompany certain other  
perceptions. Parts of Beethoven's 3rd and 5th piano concertos  
reliably evoke in me extremely pleasant visceral sensations.  
These sensations could be called "pleasure" perceptions but  
so could the auditory perceptions that constitute the concerto  
itself. And I find many pieces of music to be just as pleasurable  
as the 3rd and 5th piano concertos even though they don't evoke  
the pleasant visceral sensations of the 3rd and 5th.

A massage may be another example of what you mean by "feelings  
of pleasure". But even while getting a massage, the perceptions  
I am enjoying are just the perceptions resulting from the massage  
itself; there are no separate pleasure perceptions. The massage  
perceptions \_are\_ the pleasure perceptions, just as the the Bach  
D minor \_is\_ the pleasure perception. At least, that's the way  
it seems to me when I am "looking at" my perceptions carefully.

Me:

> My introspection led me to the conclusion that I just happen to  
> like having certain perceptions at certain times . . .  
> I also \_dislike\_ having certain perceptions,

Bruce:

> Perhaps those feelings of liking or disliking are the conscious  
> manifestations of precisely the evaluative signals we are talking  
> about . . .

Perhaps. Maybe my introspect ions are being driven by my concept  
of how the PCT model works. I was trying to think about my  
"pleasure" experiences in the way Bill discussed these experiences  
in his post. I found it to be a very interesting way to look at  
my own experiences. When I was experiencing something I liked  
(which was generally just about everything since I had little  
trouble getting most of my perceptions to and/or keeping them at  
my references for them) I would just "look at" what the liked  
or pleasurable perception was; what I saw was just the perception  
itself. When I ate an Oreo cookie, the perceptions I liked were  
the taste and feel of the cookie; that \_was\_ the pleasure of  
an Oreo for me.

Anyway, my introspect ions have no force on your model; I hope  
you go ahead and develop it into a working simulation. Maybe  
perceptions of pleasure are needed to get the model to do  
whatever it is you want it to do. I'm not sure what that is  
at the moment but I think I'll understand once I see the model  
in action.

Best

Rick

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