Positive Feedback & Economic Regulation (was Re: Popular Cover/Feature Article)

[From Rick Marken (2011.06.27.1420)]

Forgot to answer this:

Bill Powers (2011.05.27.1032 MDT)–

There is, I maintain, no more effective way to use your time and effort
to cure the economy than to design and carry out a scientific
investigation of it. If you don’t do that, you will still be arguing and
fighting long after the scientific approach, slow though it may be, would
have succeeded.

What makes you think that a highly successful model of the economy will hold any more weight with ideologues than facts? How successful have all those scientific models of control behavior been at convincing psychologists that the causal model of behavior is wrong? I agree that doing economic modeling is a nice way to spend one’s time. But certainly ii will be no more effective than spending a little of one’s time collecting facts.

I’m not excited about doing the economics modeling because 1) it will be VERY difficult 2) it will take up a lot of time that I would like to devote to other things and 3) even if I were able to develop an amazingly successful model of the economy it’s not going to convince anyone to change their mind (if the results come out to contradict an ideology). I know that what I do, in terms of presenting economic arguments backed by data, is going to be completely ineffective; but at least it’s easy for me to do that while I spend my time doing work in other areas where I think I at least have some chance of being successful and where I don’t really care whether I’m changing minds or not.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2011.06.27.1514 MDT)]

Adam Matic 2011.6.27 2205gmt+1 --
>> AM: What would qualify as a proof that regulation decreases growth?

>
> BP earlier: The most direct way would be to look at the historical record
> and see how often the addition of a new regulation was followed by a
> decrease in the rate of change of GNP. If there is a negative
> correlation, you have shown that in fact regulations decrease growth rate.

AM:
That would be easy if there were no things like inflation to care
about. Or things like the end of war. Or things like other regulations
that confound correlations.

BP: All right, you're saying that there is no reliable evidence of an effect of regulation on growth, one way or the other. If that's the case, the argument has to be put on hold until some way of getting usable evidence is found. This decision, of course, calls into question all statements made up to now about such an effect -- clearly they had no basis in fact.

One way to get better information might be to focus on one area that is most directly subject to a new regulation, and see if the growth rate shows a believable correlation with the addition of or removal of a pertinent regulation. I should think there would be examples of cases in which a new regulation put a company out of business, which would support your position. But there are probably other examples of the opposite effect.

> Suppose consumption is growing. It is always good for consumption (per
> capita) to increase?

AM:
I'm not concened with consumption, I don't see why that would be a
relevant measure.

BP: I thought the whole point of an economy was to provide what people want and use, in the highest possible quality consistent with an affordable price, up to the amount that they want. Isn't that what an economic system is for?

AM: What is relevant are prices and wages. In a free
market, it certainly is observed, prices fall, quality rises.

BP: So there are data on that available? Can you cite some findings? Do you have data on the relationship between prices and wages?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Adam Matic 2011.06.28 0100 gmt+1]

Bill Powers (2011.06.27.1514 MDT)
All right, you're saying that there is no reliable evidence of an effect
of regulation on growth, one way or the other.

AM:
Well, I'm saying that the GNP specifically is not a reliable measure of growth.

There are other measures that could count as more reliable. This
article sums a results from a few recent articles:

There is other data, like the economic history of socialist countries,
or sudden growth of free economies, or a comparison of regulated
branches of economy to free branches. There are a number of sites
dedicated to the research of freedom from regulation in economies and
it's connection to other variables, for example, this one:

They say increasing regulation did reduce growth.

AM:
I'm not concened with consumption, I don't see why that would be a
relevant measure.

BP: I thought the whole point of an economy was to provide what people want
and use, in the highest possible quality consistent with an affordable
price, up to the amount that they want. Isn't that what an economic system
is for?

AM:
Sure, it's just that increased consumption in terms of money spent
could mean that inflation happened, or decreased consumption could
mean deflation. If there is an constant amount of money in an economy
then consumption in terms of money could be pretty much the same
regardless of some major changes like unemployment rising or falling.
But OK, consumption of certain goods might show some relevant
information, sure. Some data might be deemed good, some bad.

Best, Adam

[From Samuel Saunders (2011.06.27:1648 MDT)]

Rick Marken has often stated, as he did in this thread, the the US
economy performed well from 1940-1980, and has suggested that policies
in force at the time were responsible. I think that this arguement
misses the unusual historical circumstance that influenced the US
economy during this time, and may have contributed to economic success
in spite of some policiies, rather than because of some policicies.

The US economy was depressed until the entry of the US into World War
II. Some people have argued that policies in effect at the end of the
Hoover administration might have ended this depression in a period of
two years or so, and that the ten year continuation of the downturn was
result of the policies of the Roosevelt administration, but this is just
speculation. The fact is, however, that it was US involvement in the
war that started the economic turn arround. There was great need for
military equipment and supplies, and with much of the US facilities
idle, it was eady to respond to this demand without compromise of
existing economic activity. A sisnificant part of the work force went
to military service, and many areas of the economy went from having a
surplus of potential employees to having a shortage, so unemployeement
was largely ended. The destructive nature of the war meant that
demand was increased by loss of millitary equipment and supplies. By
the end of the war, much of the industrial infrastructure of Europe and
Asia had been destroyed, and the US was essentially the only industrial
power. This made the US the supplier of industrial products to the
world. As post-war economic recovery took place in other countries,
that increased the demand for US industrial products. In most
countries, industrial rebuilding was uneven, so even as some industries
were rebuilt, the supply of many needed parts and equipment continued to
come from the US. By the early 1970s, industrial reconstruction had
progressed significantly in much of Europe and Asia, but the OPEC
contries had imposed strict export limits on energy, and it was
difficult in much of Europe and Asia to get enough energy to re-start
industrial production, while the US had its own energy supplies. When
OPEC changed policy significantly in the late 1970s and early 1980s,
raising export limits, European and Asian industry was finally in
positiion to compete with the US. At this point, much of US industry
found itself at a disadvantage, since the infrastructure in Europe and
Asia had of necessity been rebuilt, and was new, modern, and relatively
efficient, while the heavy demand for output on US industry in the
previous years had made US businesses reluctant to shut down production
lines and modernise equipment, and much of the US infrastructure was
old, out of date, and in-efficient. This made it difficult for US
industry to compete, and began to be reflected in economic problems
in the US. I would argue that some policy reponses also contributed,
for example the Reagan administrations imposition of stiff import tarifs
on steel (on the premis that the US steel industry was at risk of
colapse due to foreign competition). The protective tarifs on steel
meant that any US industry producing products that included steel would
have difficulty competing outside the US on price.

Then we can think about how these historical influences might affect
observations. For example, there are both data and theory to suggest
that imposing or increasing minimum wages increases unemployeement. If
we consider a time like the 1950s in the US, the economy was growing,
and as noted above recovery of other economies had an positive effect on
demand from the US, and thus supported the growth of the US economy. If
minimum wages were raised at this time, there might still be a
concurrent increase in employeement, because the economic growth could
overcome suppressive effects of the minimum wage. Employeement growth
might be less that it might have been absent the minimum wage increases,
but of course we wouldn't have the data unless history were to repeat
itself in all ways but the minimum wage policy.

Samuel

···

--
Samuel Spence Saunders, Ph.D.
saunders@gwtc.net

[From Rick Marken (2011.06.27.1720)]

Adam Matic (2011.07.27 2220 gmt +1)

AM:

So you count correlation as causation? Is that what you’re saying?

No, I count it as a measure of the degree (and sign) of linear relationship

between two variables. Determining causation is a whole different ballgame,

which depends on having a model that explains the observed correlations (or

lack thereof), as discussed in my recently published paper:

AM:

Well, than I’m confused. You said "When I say that raising top
marginal tax rates is likely to not only reduce the deficit but reduce

unemployment and increase growth, I am saying this based on actual

observed relationships between the variables involved."

If you don’t imply causation, then there is nothing to base your

proposition on. Relationships could have come for different reasons.

Yes, absolutely. What I should have said is “When others say that raising the top marginal tax rates will increase the deficit, increase unemployment and decrease growth, they are talking through their asses. The data suggest that raising the top marginal rates does not produce those results and, indeed, may produce the opposite results”.

AM:

Sure, you can start with observations, but things like correlations

can easily lead astray especialy without a guiding model or worse,

with an excepted wrong model. If you don’t have a model, then the

correlation says nothing.

I’m kinda into the idea that data constrains theory. Phenomena phirst!. Models are certainly essential for making sense out of the data, but without data against which to test them I think models are nothing more than myths.

How exactly do taxes influence the economy?

RM Answering that requires a model. But whatever model you come up with, it
would have to behave like what is observed. …

AM: That’s easy. I can think of several ways to explain that. None of

them have to be right. After raising taxes, the government spends the

money on employing more public service workers - unemployment goes

down. After raising taxes, the government gives subsidies to some

companies to employ more workers. Unemployment goes down. Together

with raising taxes, the government lowers the minimum wage laws and

more teenagers and immigrants get employed. Or Whatever.

What’s your model?

My model would be similar for unemployment. Though I would say that the money spent by the government on employing people for public services (or for building infrastructure) becomes increased aggregate demand, which leads to increased demand for employment in the private sector and the wages paid for that increased employment maintains the aggregate demand when the government projects are finished, thus keeping unemployment low.

I also have an explanation for how increased taxes could be responsible for increased growth. But I’ll let you give that a try first.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2011.06.27.1928 MDT)]

First, thanks to Samuel Saunders for a non-ideological survey of
observable factors influencing the economy since the 1930s. In relation
to modeling, these are like the variables (disturbances) that one wants
to use as inputs to a model to see if its resulting behavior is anything
like what actually happened.

Rick Marken (2011.06.27.1720)–

RM: Yes, absolutely. What I
should have said is “When others say that raising the top marginal
tax rates will increase the deficit, increase unemployment and decrease
growth, they are talking through their asses. The data suggest that
raising the top marginal rates does not produce those results and,
indeed, may produce the opposite results”.

BP: The data do not suggest any causal relationship at all. They describe
concurrent variations which might prove to be causal in one direction or
the opposite direction, or they might reflect, as Samuel Saunders pointed
out, influences of completely different kinds that account for both sorts
of variations so neither direction is causal: both are effects of
something else or of multiple covarying disturbances.

RM: I’m kinda into the idea that
data constrains theory. Phenomena phirst!. Models are certainly essential
for making sense out of the data, but without data against which to test
them I think models are nothing more than myths.

BP: What models do better than any other approach is to force the
theorist to describe the relationships being proposed in sufficient
detail that a working model can be constructed to fit the specifications,
and then be set loose to run by itself without any help from its
inventor. That last step, letting the model run by itself, is the real
test. The author can’t give the model a nudge when it doesn’t quite do
what was expected, or distract the observer with clever excuses or
shocking language or any other strategy designed to cover up weaknesses.
Purely verbal arguments take advantage of the ambiguity of ordinary
language so that after the result is seen, the theorist can explain that
the observer picked the wrong meanings of the words, and that the right
meanings predict exactly what did happen.

I said in my last post that verbal explanations of economic phenomena are
little more than a musical (or perhaps rap) accompaniment to the twists
and turns of the data. Without a model they mean next to
nothing.

RM Answering that requires a model. But whatever model you
come up with, it would have to behave like what is observed. …

AM: That’s easy. I can think of several ways to explain that. None
of
them have to be right. After raising taxes, the government spends
the
money on employing more public service workers - unemployment
goes
down. After raising taxes, the government gives subsidies to
some
companies to employ more workers. Unemployment goes down.
Together
with raising taxes, the government lowers the minimum wage laws
and
more teenagers and immigrants get employed. Or Whatever.

What’s your model?

BP: That was not a model, it was just a description of what you want a
model to do to fit your expectations. Now you have to design the actual
model such that when you expose it to the conditions being considered, it
spontaneously behaves in the ways you describe with no help from you and
no mid-course corrections from you.

AM: My model would be similar
for unemployment. Though I would say that the money spent by the
government on employing people for public services (or for building
infrastructure) becomes increased aggregate demand, which leads to
increased demand for employment in the private sector and the wages paid
for that increased employment maintains the aggregate demand when the
government projects are finished, thus keeping unemployment low.

BP: OK, that is what you think your model would do, if you had finished
it and were running it. Now what are the processes the model has to carry
out in order to produce the behavior you describe? What is the mechanism
by which the government spending becomes increased aggregate demand, and
how does that lead to increased demand for employment, and how do the
wages maintain the demand and keep unemployment low? You may think the
answers are too obvious even to talk about, but those answers are going
to be what your model is made of. The model is not about what
happens
; it’s about how it happens. If you don’t describe the
how in enough detail to lead to a working simulation, you don’t have a
model. All you have is a description of what you hope a model might do if
you had one.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2011.06.27.2230)]

Bill Powers (2011.06.27.1928 MDT)–

BP: The data do not suggest any causal relationship at all. They describe
concurrent variations which might prove to be causal in one direction or
the opposite direction, or they might reflect, as Samuel Saunders pointed
out, influences of completely different kinds that account for both sorts
of variations so neither direction is causal: both are effects of
something else or of multiple covarying disturbances.

Yes, this is the usual interpretation of a correlation, based on an understanding of the term “correlation does not imply causation” to mean that data reported in terms of correlation coefficients (r values) does not imply causation. But this is not what the term means. The term “correlation does not imply causation” means that non-experimentally obtained relationships between variables do not imply causation. Relationships between variables that are observed in a carefully controlled experiment, even if represented by a correlation coefficient, r, do presumably imply causality (though we know that this is not true when the experiment is done on a control system).

So, for example, in an experiment aimed at determining the relationship between voltage (independent variable) and current (dependent variable), with all other factors (resistance, capacitance, etc) held constant, one would find a very high positive correlation between voltage and current. And in this case, because this relationship was observed under experimental conditions, one could correctly say that the observed correlation does imply causation; voltage causes the flow of current in a circuit.

The correlation between taxes and growth (for example) that I have observed is not based on experimentally collected data. But the data are not purely non-experimental either. The data are actually obtained in what Donald T. Campbell (one of your champions) called a quasi-experiment. Tax rate is actually a manipulated “independent” variable, like an “intervention” in quasi-experimental research. Manipulation of an independent variable is one of the key characteristics of an experiment. The other key characteristic is observing the relationship between independent and dependent variable (growth date) under controlled conditions. And of course, when observing the relationship between independent and dependent variable in the tax rate versus growth rate “experiment” there is no control of all other variables that vary along with variations in the independent variable.

These uncontrolled variables are "confounding " variables and they include the ones Samuel Saunders mentions in what you consider his “non-ideological survey of
observable factors influencing the economy since the 1930s”: variables such as the degree to which the country is at war, trade balance, political make up of the government, etc. But while these variables are not controlled they are also presumably not systematically associated with variations in the “independent variable”, tax rate. So to some extent variations in these other variables cancel-out over the long period during which the variations in the independent variable are produced.

Of course, manipulation of tax rate without control is not a perfect experiment; and it’s possible that there is some important variable that is perfectly confounded with the variations in tax rate. But it’s also not a perfect non-experiment, where any observed correlation between variables unquestionably does not imply causation. It’s a quasi-experiment and, when the manipulation of the independent variable occurs over a period of many years (80 years in the case of the tax rate versus growth data) I think we can be fairly confident that we are seeing a real causal relationship between the independent and dependent variable peeking through. Of course we have to be cautious, and a model would definitely help us make sense of what we observe, but I think this is the best kind of economic data we’re ever going to get. And I think it’s a mistake to dismiss these relationships as implying nothing about causality simply because they are reported as correlations. What we learn from these quasi-experiments seems like a lot more than what we learn from a bunch of anecdotes, like those in Samuel Sanders post.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Lewitt 2011 jun 28 0414 PDT]

[From Adam Matic 2011.6.27 2205gmt+1]

Bill Powers (2011.06.27.1010 MDT)

AM: What would qualify as a proof that regulation decreases growth?

BP: The most direct way would be to look at the historical record and see how
often the addition of a new regulation was followed by a decrease in the
rate of change of GNP. If there is a negative correlation, you have shown
that in fact regulations decrease growth rate.

No, in a complex nonlinear system, there would be too many variables that are not controlled, so a simple correlation can't be shown to be meaningful. But humans brains evolved to deal with nonlinearity, through local optimization, satisficing and derivation of principles, morals and standards.

If we can see that regulation reduces wealth creation and efficiency and increases unproductive activity and waste at the micro-economic level, then the burden of proof that the macro-economic or aggregate effect is different falls on those arguing for it.

I recently paid an MD $122 to write three prescriptions because of government regulation. On the face of it I'd be at least $122 better off, if I could purchase the prescription drugs directly. In my particular case, that doesn't begin to tally the costs and inefficiency, there was the fuel and depreciation costs for my transportation, there was the time I had to spend correcting a mistake the physician made in one of the prescriptions and there is the further costs I'm going to have to incurr because this physician was unwilling write a 4th prescription he felt was more appropriate for a specialist to write, even though it was just a renewal of a prescription I'd already had a specialist write.

My time could have been spent more productively, and my money could have been invested in wealth creation. The quality of my medical care was reduced by this government regulation, and presumably even the MDs time could have been more productively employed, that trying to quickly study a medical history and drug treatment that I was intimately more familiar with.

I doubt this is the only anecdote about government regulation, and anecdotes add up, although perhaps not linearly in a nonlinear system. The fact is that all wealth is created locally and the macro-economic view is a synthesis of events and transactions at the micro level.

-- Martin L

···

On 6/27/2011 2:06 PM, Adam Matić wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2011.06.28.0745)]

Martin Lewitt (2011 jun 28 0414 PDT)–

Bill Powers (2011.06.27.1010 MDT)

AM: What would qualify as a proof that regulation decreases growth?
BP: The most direct way would be to look at the historical record and see how

often the addition of a new regulation was followed by a decrease in the

rate of change of GNP. If there is a negative correlation, you have shown

that in fact regulations decrease growth rate.

No, in a complex nonlinear system, there would be too many variables that are not controlled, so a simple correlation can’t be shown to be meaningful.

Translation: We libertarians don’t need no stinkin’ data.

If we can see that regulation reduces wealth creation and efficiency and increases unproductive activity and waste at the micro-economic level, then the burden of proof that the macro-economic or aggregate effect is different falls on those arguing for it.

Absolutely true. I went to the bank yesterday and tried to take out a no-interest loan for $500,000,000 with no down and no collatateral. But they said there are now all these “regulations” that prevented them from doing this. Talk about impeding wealth creation. I could have been rich, I tell you, RICH! Damn regulations. Add this up and it’s clear that regulation is costing us zillions in lost wealth.

I doubt this is the only anecdote about government regulation

You bet. Wait till I tell you about the problems I’ve had getting a permit to hire 12 year olds at $1/hr to work the off shore oil wells I plan to build in Santa Monica Bay (still can’t get a permit for those either; damn regulations).

Thanks for your service to us wealth creators.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2011.06.28.0858 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2011.06.27.2230) --

RM: So, for example, in an experiment aimed at determining the relationship between voltage (independent variable) and current (dependent variable), with all other factors (resistance, capacitance, etc) held constant, one would find a very high positive correlation between voltage and current. And in this case, because this relationship was observed under experimental conditions, one could correctly say that the observed correlation _does_ imply causation; voltage causes the flow of current in a circuit.

BP: It's interesting how your discussion, and Martin Lewitt's, have combined to show me something I knew but never brought into the foreground. The whole problem with economics, and the main reason we need modeling to make sense of it, is that the relationships studied by economists totally omit one main causal factor: human beings. Consider this:

RM: The correlation between taxes and growth (for example) that I have observed is not based on experimentally collected data. But the data are not purely non-experimental either. The data are actually obtained in what Donald T. Campbell (one of your champions) called a quasi-experiment. Tax rate is actually a manipulated "independent" variable, like an "intervention" in quasi-experimental research. Manipulation of an independent variable is one of the key characteristics of an experiment. The other key characteristic is observing the relationship between independent and dependent variable (growth date) under _controlled_ conditions. And of course, when observing the relationship between independent and dependent variable in the tax rate versus growth rate "experiment" there is no control of all other variables that vary along with variations in the independent variable.

BP: What is left out of this discussion? You say that tax rate is actually a manipulated "independent" variable. So in the analysis, we assume or measure a variation in tax rate, and look for correlated changes in some other variable -- growth rate, in this case. If all confounding variables are controlled, we can say there is a causal relationship, with the change in tax rate as the cause.

But hold on a minute. What causes tax rates to change? Do they just spontaneously change while we look on in delight or outrage? Of course not. Somebody, or some bunch of bodies, changed them. And what caused that bunch of bodies to change them? Some error signal inside those bodies, right? And what caused the error signal inside those bodies? Possibly, a deviation of some perception from a reference perception in enough of them, not so? And what caused that deviation? Very possibly, if these are legislators, the perception of growth rate did not match the reference level for growth rate.

All of a sudden we have the effect determining the cause. Now it's the growth rate in relation to some reference level that causes the change in tax rate. But we also see that the change in tax rate results in a change in growth rate (note that I am skipping past the question of the signs of the changes).

That might even be a genuine causal relationship between tax rate and growth rate. But the other causal relationship is genuine, too. The difference between actual growth rate (or something affected by growth rate) and the reference rate genuinely causes manipulations in the tax rate, according to the organization of the human agents in these relationships.

What happens when both of these causal links are acting at the same time, in a closed loop? One thing that can happen is that the tax rate changes cause growth rate changes that alter the tax rate changes in the same direction, so there is positive feedback. In that case the system will go into an unstable condition and either run away to some limit or spontaneously oscillate at some frequency. Which one will happen depends on the system dynamics.

The other thing that can happen is that the loop remains stable and the growth rate is maintained at the reference rate, or close to it. In that situation, both growth rate and tax rate are dependent variables. The independent variables are the reference level for growth rate and disturbances independent of the tax rate that can affect growth rate. The correlation between growth rate and tax rate may be high, but neither is causing the other. Both are determined by the independent variables and the detailed transfer functions making up the closed loop. The tax rate will show a strong negative correlation with disturbances acting on the growth rate.

Now we have included the human factor and the causal picture is entirely changed. However, in order to understand this it's necessary to understand closed loops of causation, and a correct understanding of closed loops has not been part of any economic theory that I know of. It wasn't part of any theory prior to the 1930s.

No matter what kind of economic theory is offered, the analysis is not finished until one has traced backward from each apparent causal variable to its prior cause and ended up either with an independent variable or another system variable. If one end-point is another system variable, there is potentially a closed loop, and when a closed loop is found, the analysis has to change gears, because open-loop analysis will not give correct answers to any questions. Only systems of simultaneous equations can reveal the true relationships in any system containing closed loops of causation. And the naked human mind is very poorly equipped for that kind of analysis.

This is why I have kept saying we need a model. It's not just to "refine" what common sense and scribble on the back of an envelope tell us. It's to reveal relationships that are radically different from what we think we can see by looking at one part or another part of the economic system. Look what happened when models were brought into the then-prevalent view of how behavior works. Exactly that drastic a revolution is waiting to happen in economics.

Best,

Bill P.

P.S. It is also worthwhile to consider what will happen to growth rate if the legislators change the real tax rate but perceive an imagined growth rate instead of the real one.

[From Adam Matic 2011.06.28 1800gmt+1]

Rick Marken (2011.06.27.2230)

And I think it's a mistake to dismiss these relationships as
implying nothing about causality simply because they are reported as
correlations.� What we learn from these quasi-experiments seems like a lot
more than what we learn from a bunch of anecdotes, like those in Samuel
Sanders post.

AM:
OK, How about this:
Bangladesh is full of sweatshops. After the collapse of socialism,
kids worked there for less than a dollar a day. More then 1.5 million
jobs were created in the textile sector in Bangladesh in the 1990's
and made the country a leading exporter in the region. The growth of
the textile industry correlates with the increases in life expectancy
and with a decrease in child mortality. I'm not saying these variables
are causaly connected, but they do talk about something.

The same situation can be found in China, Vietnam, India..
What about this data? Is this cherry picking?

Best, Adam

[From Rick Marken (2011.06.28.0920)]

Bill Powers (2011.06.28.0858 MDT)–

Rick Marken (2011.06.27.2230) –

RM: So, for example, in an experiment aimed at determining the relationship between voltage (independent variable) and current (dependent variable), with all other factors (resistance, capacitance, etc) held constant, one would find a very high positive correlation between voltage and current. And in this case, because this relationship was observed under experimental conditions, one could correctly say that the observed correlation does imply causation; voltage causes the flow of current in a circuit.

BP: It’s interesting how your discussion, and Martin Lewitt’s, have combined to show me something I knew but never brought into the foreground. The whole problem with economics, and the main reason we need modeling to make sense of it, is that the relationships studied by economists totally omit one main causal factor: human beings.

Thank you! This brings the conversation back to my original question: are we in an economic positive feedback regime . You frame it in terms of legislators possibly varying tax rates as a means of controlling growth (which is what they ostensibly do). To evaluate this question you are at least willing to consider the data. My point has always been that we need a control model of the humans in the system to explain the observed behavior of these macroeconomic variables.

As far as tax rates and growth, my guess is that legislators may say they are varying tax rate to control growth but I doubt it; the fact is legislators want tocut taxes regardless of growth because just saying they want to cut taxes is what gets them votes (which is the main thing they are controlling for). I think we are now in a positive feedback regime because there is a modest positive effect of increases in the top marginal tax rat on growth but since legislators are controlling for reducing those taxes no matter what, growth remains anemic, which justifies further efforts to further reduce the top marginal tax rate.

So my prediction for the future of he US economy is that this positive feedback loop, because it is moderately low gain, will stabilize and the US will have a flaccid economy (high unemployment, stagnant wages, low growth) for the foreseeable future. The trend toward “flaccidity” will be even faster if the Republicans manage to win the election in 2012. And once again they will blame the lame economy on the tax and spend Democrats. And the electorate will believe them and elect them again and again. You can take this prediction to the bank (the one that wouldn’t loan me the $500,000,000 but will be able to again once the Republicans get back in;-).

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2011.06.28. 1020)]

Adam Matic (2011.06.28 1800gmt+1)

AM:

OK, How about this:

Bangladesh is full of sweatshops. After the collapse of socialism,

kids worked there for less than a dollar a day. More then 1.5 million

jobs were created in the textile sector in Bangladesh in the 1990’s

and made the country a leading exporter in the region. The growth of

the textile industry correlates with the increases in life expectancy

and with a decrease in child mortality. I’m not saying these variables

are causaly connected, but they do talk about something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Bangladesh

The same situation can be found in China, Vietnam, India…

What about this data? Is this cherry picking?

No. But I it’s a little more anecdotal than I like. I like to see the relationship between variables that are changing over time. The main problem with this data is that the variables are not well defined. For example, what is “socialism” and how does it relate to kids working for $1/day? I think it’s wonderful that all those jobs were created but what is the variable that you think is responsible for that? Is it the wage rate? Did employers have to pay people more than $1/day before the “collapse of socialism”. What collapsed when socialism collapsed? What, again, is “socialism”?

I think you’ve probably had some real bad experiences over there with what you call “socialists”. But I’ve had some real bad experiences over here with what I call “free marketeers”. It seems to me the best approach is the middle way, like that of those non-socialist countries you mentioned a few days ago: Norway, Sweden, Denmark.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Adam Matic, 2011.06.28 2310 gmt1+]

Rick Marken (2011.06.28. 1020)

No. But I� it's a little more anecdotal than I like. I like to see the
relationship between variables that are changing over time. The main problem
with this data is that the variables are not well defined. For example, what
is "socialism" and how does it relate to kids working for $1/day? I think
it's wonderful that all those jobs were created but what is the variable
that you think is responsible for that? Is it the wage rate? Did employers
have to pay people more than $1/day before the "collapse of socialism". What
collapsed when socialism collapsed? What, again, is "socialism"?

AM:
I'll go with "Socialism is a system in which the government controls
the economy". Sometimes the fact that the government is controlling is
obvious, as in the Soviet Union, somewhere the government pretends
it's capitalistic (as in Germany WWII) but still has total control;
and somewhere it doesn't exist in fact, but only in name (as in
Scandinavia, to a large extent).

So, I'm saying that after the famines and other disasters of
full-blown socialism, it was, in part, sweatshop labor that helped a
lot of people to put food on their table. Things like sweatshop labor
are still happening and I think we shouldn't be quick to judge those
companies just because we think that they pay small wages.
I mean, sure, some of the executives are scumbags, but, some might not
be, and it's still a fact that they are not slave owners but job
providers. The best way to raise wages is to send more companies to
compete for workers by offering higher wages.

I agree that the variables are not well defined, that there actually
isn't much historical data, but it does seem that economies in
socialist countries, where the government makes elaborate plans; fail
one after the other.

RM: I think you've probably had some real bad experiences over there with� what
you call "socialists". But I've had some real bad experiences over here with
what I call "free marketeers".� It seems to me the best approach is the
middle way, like that of those non-socialist countries you mentioned a few
days ago: Norway, Sweden, Denmark.

AM:
I think a lot of people in the world had very bad experiences with
various forms of socialism. I think over here we still have socialism,
that is to say - government control - to a large extent over here. A
lot of the same people stayed in charge, actually.

I agree wholeheartedly with goals of socialism -workers benefits,
equality, employment, you name it.. I just think government control is
the worst possible way to achieve those goals. I also think that since
Lord Keynes and macroeconomics socialism (or government control) got
scientific-sounding formulas to support the cause and since then in
the USA, both parties were swinging toward socialism.

I don't believe in the middle way. I guess that means that some
industries are controlled by the government (like education) and
others are left to the market (like the computer industry). That just
means that there will be a socialist plan for it and it will fail,
just like all other socialist plans failed.

There are good reasons socialist plans fail.

Best
Adam

[Martin Taylor 2011.06.28.10.52]

[From Rick Marken (2011.06.27.2230)]

Bill Powers (2011.06.27.1928 MDT)–

        BP: The data do not suggest any causal relationship at all.

They describe concurrent variations which might prove to be
causal in one direction or the opposite direction, or they
might reflect, as Samuel Saunders pointed out, influences of
completely different kinds that account for both sorts of
variations so neither direction is causal: both are effects
of something else or of multiple covarying disturbances.

      Yes, this is the usual interpretation of a correlation, based

on an understanding of the term “correlation does not imply
causation” to mean that data reported in terms of correlation
coefficients (r values) does not imply causation. But this is
not what the term means. The term “correlation does not imply
causation” means that non-experimentally obtained
relationships between variables do not imply causation.

That is not what it means. Any correlation DOES imply causation,

whether there’s an experiment involved or not.

As many people, including Rick, have shown, you can have a strong

causal connection between two variables but a complete absence of
correlation between them. The converse is not true. If there is a
correlation then there must be a causal relation, either directly
between the variables or from another variable to both. And that is
true in control systems, in non-experimental data, and whenever
there is sufficient data to indicate the correlation isn’t just a
coincidence.

The statement "correlation does not imply causation" simply means

that a correlation between A and B does not mean there is a causal
link between A and B. A and B may have no causal link whatever, but
if they don’t, then both must have a causal link to some other
variable. For example, there is a strong correlation between the
greenness of my grass and the leafiness of my deciduous trees, but
the leaves do not cause the grass to grow and neither does the grass
cause the trees to leaf. However, there is a causal relation,
because the same seasonal changes in solar angle influence both the
grass and the trees.

If there are several independent direct causal influences on a

variable, there are limits on how strong correlations can be. By
this I mean that if X is directly influenced by A, B, C, D,… and
these are all independent of one another, the second strongest
correlation cannot be greater than 1/sqrt(2), the third strongest
cannot be greater than 1/sqrt(3), and so forth. Usually the second,
third, etc., correlations are well below these limits, because the
limits actually will be reached only when both (all three, four,
…) correlations are equal.

Following Samuel Saunders, consider the case of taxes and prosperity

after the Second World War. High taxes were needed in order to pay
for the war effort. The high tax rates continued after the war, for
a while, and low unemployment also. But was the low unemployment
caused by the high taxes? It’s impossible to say, simply from the
correlation. One could argue, as Saunders does, that low
unemployment was due to the catchup on the lack of non-war
production during the war years, and to the need to fix war damage.
The war would then be a causal influence on both taxes and reduction
of unemployment.

On the other hand, when many apparently independent variables (such

as the grass and the leaves) correlate with the same independent
variable, there is a surface case for investigating whether that
common variable might be directly causal on the other variables.

Consider the correlations between a simple index of income

inequality (the ratio of the to 20% to the bottom 20%) and 29
different social indices across 23 developed nations or 50 US
states, from the book “The Spirit level: Why equality is better for
everyone” by Wilkinson and Pickett, Penguin 2010:

`

  Indicator           International data       ``US data ``

`

*r*``*p-value*``*r p-value*

` Trust -0.66 <0.01
-0.70 <0.01 (percentage of people who say most people can
be trusted)

  `

Life expectancy -0.44 0.04 -0.45 <0.01

Infant mortality 0.42 0.04 0.43 <0.01

Obesity 0.57 <0.01 0.47 <0.01

Mental illness 0.73 <0.01 0.18 0.12

Education score -0.45 0.04 -0.47 0.01

Teenage birth rate 0.73 <0.01 0.46 <0.01

Homicides 0.47 0.02 0.42 <0.01

Imprisonment 0.75 <0.01 0.48 <0.01

` Social mobility 0.93 <0.01

  •   - `
    

** The above were combined into an Index of quality of life (my term) as they were available for all the countries and states (not social mobility for the US index) **

** Index 0.87 <0.01 0.59 <0.01**

` The following were not available for all 23
countries or 50 states, so were not included in the above index.

  `

Overweight children 0.59 0.01 0.57 <0.01

Drugs index 0.63 <0.01

Calorie intake`` 0.46`` 0.03

`

``

    Public expenditure on health care``

                       -0.69``    <0.01`

`

``

    Child well-being``   -0.63``    <0.01``                

-0.51`` <0.01 `

`Triple education score

                       -0.44     0.04

  `

Child conflict 0.62 <0.01

`Spending on foreign aid``

                       -0.61``    <0.01 `

`

``

    Recycling``          -0.82``    <0.01 `

`

``

    Peace index``        -0.45``     0.03 `

`

``

    Paid maternity leave``

                      -0.55``      0.01 `

`

``

    Advertising``        0.60``     <0.01 `

`

``

    Police``             0.52``      0.04 `

`

``

    Social expenditure``

                      -0.45``      0.04 `

`

``

    Women’s status``    -0.50``      0.02``                  

-0.30`` 0.03 `

Juvenile homicides`` 0.29 <0.05

` High school drop-outs
0.79 <0.01

  `

``

Child mental illlness`` 0.36 0.01

Pugnacity`` 0.47 <0.01

Nothing in these correlations proves that income inequality causes

any of the adverse effects, but they do say either that it does or
that at least some of the factors such as government policies that
influence income inequality also influence these variables.
Obviously some of the variables are highly correlated, such as
“Obesity” and “Overweight children”, but others have no obvious
direct relationship, such as “teenage birth rate” and “imprisonment”
both of which correlate better than 1/sqrt(2) with income
inequality, or between “spending on foreign aid” and “mental
illness”, both of which correlate better than 1/sqrt(3) with income
inequality.

Given these correlations, one would be forgiven for thinking that

unless there is evidence to the contrary, income inequality probably
does have a direct effect on at least some of the social quality
indices. In the book, Wilkinson and Pickett suggest mechanisms for
some of the effects, but their suggestions certainly cannot be
considered definitive.

These correlations are data from respected sources, with no

cherry-picking. Any valid socio-economic model should produce a
similar pattern of correlations.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2011.06.28.2150)]

Martin Taylor (2011.06.28.10.52)–

Rick Marken (2011.06.27.2230)–

      RM: The term "correlation does not imply

causation" means that non-experimentally obtained
relationships between variables do not imply causation.

MT: That is not what it means…

The statement "correlation does not imply causation" simply means

that a correlation between A and B does not mean there is a causal
link between A and B.

But it does mean that (according to the causal model that is the basis of experimental research in the physical and life sciences) if the correlation between A and B was observed under experimental conditions.

A and B may have no causal link whatever, but

if they don’t, then both must have a causal link to some other
variable.

This is true if the relationship between A and B was observed non-experimentally. Again, that’s the logic of the causal model that is the basis of research in the physical and life sciences.

Consider the correlations between a simple index of income

inequality (the ratio of the to 20% to the bottom 20%) and 29
different social indices across 23 developed nations or 50 US
states, from the book “The Spirit level: Why equality is better for
everyone” by Wilkinson and Pickett, Penguin 2010:

This is great. Thanks for posting them.

Of course, these correlations are based on purely non-experimental data. It is not even quasi-experimental data because the main “predictor variable”, income inequality, was not manipulated purposefully (unlike, for example, top marginal tax rates) and there was, of course, no control of variables other than those being measured. But, still, I think it’s interesting that all the correlations show that the relationship between income inequality and aggregate measures of quality of life (life expectancy, infant mortality, homicide rate, teen birth rate, education level, etc.) always go in the “wrong” direction: increases in income inequality are always associated with decreases in quality of life measures.

So even though the correlations do not imply causality are sometimes rather small, they always go in the “wrong” direction for those who think increased income inequality either increases the quality of life or, at least, makes no difference. I’ve found the same thing with taxes (increased taxes are associated with improvements to the economy) and religious belief (increased religious belief is associated with decreases in the quality of life). These correlations are always consistent with a liberal or progressive world view. I have never found a relationship between socio-economic variables that goes the way conservatives believe it should go. Reduced taxes, increased income inequality and increased religiosity – which conservatives believe should make things better – are always associated with an increase in variables that reflect a decreased quality of life at the aggregate level. No wonder conservatives would rather deal with theory rather than actual observation. And no wonder conservatives will always be quick to dismiss correlations as being “unreliable” or “not reflecting a causal relationship” or “being way too small”. All of these things may be true but, still, it’s got to be tough when you can’t find a single unreliable, non-causal, small correlation that goes the “right” (conservative) way;-)

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Lewitt 2011 June 29 0620 PDT]

      So even though the correlations do not imply causality are

sometimes rather small, they always go in the “wrong”
direction for those who think increased income inequality
either increases the quality of life or, at least, makes no
difference. I’ve found the same thing with taxes (increased
taxes are associated with improvements to the economy) and
religious belief (increased religious belief is associated
with decreases in the quality of life). These correlations are
always consistent with a liberal or progressive world view.
I have never found a relationship between socio-economic
variables that goes the way conservatives believe it should
go. Reduced taxes, increased income inequality and increased
religiosity – which conservatives believe should make things
better – are always associated with an increase in variables
that reflect a decreased quality of life at the aggregate
level. No wonder conservatives would rather deal with theory
rather than actual observation. And no wonder conservatives
will always be quick to dismiss correlations as being
“unreliable” or “not reflecting a causal relationship” or
“being way too small”. All of these things may be true but,
still, it’s got to be tough when you can’t find a single
unreliable, non-causal, small correlation that goes the
“right” (conservative) way;-)

      Best



      Rick

*** snip ***

  But, still, I think it's interesting that _all_ the

correlations show that the relationship between income inequality
and aggregate measures of quality of life (life expectancy, infant
mortality, homicide rate, teen birth rate, education level, etc.)
always go in the “wrong” direction: increases in income inequality
are always associated with decreases in quality of life measures.

I really think you need to look at the data again, taxes were much

higher in the 1950s, yet life expectancy, infant mortality, and
education level are much higher today.

-- Martin L
···

On 6/28/2011 10:47 PM, Richard Marken wrote:

  Richard S. Marken PhD

  rsmarken@gmail.com

  [www.mindreadings.com](http://www.mindreadings.com)

[From Adam Matic (2011.06.29 1450 gmt+1)]

The correlation between taxes and unemployment, no matter how high,
does not imply that increasing taxes will decrease unemployment.
That's all I'm saying.
It's like observing that red cars go faster; then deciding to paint
your car red and expecting it to go faster.

It might be a good reason to vote for democrats, though. As good as any.

Adam

[From Rick Marken (2011.06.29.0815)]

Martin Lewitt (2011 June 29 0620 PDT)–

I really think you need to look at the data again, taxes were much

higher in the 1950s, yet life expectancy, infant mortality, and
education level are much higher today.

And inflation adjusted GDP, population and internet access is much greater today than in the 1950s. Some things just get bigger and better over time due to technological (and the usual reproductive) advances. These are among the confounding variables that are cancelled out when you look at, say, unemployment rate as a function of actively produced changes in tax rate that have made at essentially random points in time.

The nice thing about the continuous improvement in quality of life that results from improvements in technology (for you, anyway) is that when your reactionary policies turn the US into a third world country it will be country with a microwave in every kitchen and an Xbox in every bedroom (and an A bomb in every silo).

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2011.06.29.0830)]

Adam Matic (2011.06.29 1450 gmt+1)–

The correlation between taxes and unemployment, no matter how high,

does not imply that increasing taxes will decrease unemployment.

That’s all I’m saying.

Yes, that’s what everyone has been saying; that’s what “correlation does not imply causation” mean. But I have made two two points relative to this:

  1. Taxes rates are a manipulated variable and thus qualify as an independent variable from a research perspective. These changes are made at essentially random points in time. So while there is no experimental control, variations in tax rate qualify as a quasi-experimental manipulation which means that you can cautiously conclude that changes in a dependent variable, such as unemployment, that are correlated with changes in tax rate are caused by the changes in tax rate.

  2. Since every correlation between socioeconomic variables that has ever been observed is inconsistent with the predictions of what will happen according to conservative/ libertarian ideology, it would seem to me that this ideology is a poor perspective from whence to start developing theories of how economies work. Of course, it’s always a bad idea to get attached to ideologies; but it seems to me that the conservative/ libertarian ideology is, based on the existing evidence, one of the worst of a bad lot.

Best

Rick

···

It’s like observing that red cars go faster; then deciding to paint

your car red and expecting it to go faster.

It might be a good reason to vote for democrats, though. As good as any.

Adam


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com