Prediction

[From Rick Marken
(2005.02.11.1310)]

Rohan Lulham (2005.02.12)

I am not quite up on the thread but attached is Keith Hendy’s
diagram based on

PCT, and a thinking or prediction process? Maybe useful to
discussion.

Yes. I think that this is a very useful contribution to the discussion.
At

least it’s diagram that could be the basis of a working (testable)
model.

There are several questions I have about it. Perhaps you can answer
them

based on Hendy’s paper. If you can’t, perhaps we could get Hendy
himself

involved in this discussion.

My first question is "is this supposed to be a model of control
that

includes prediction"? If so, then I would guess that the World Model
(WM) is

doing the prediction. Is that right?

The world model seems to produce a predicted value of the controlled

variable, s. The prediction seems to be based on input from the
output

function. This input is called b (for behavior, I presume) when it goes
into

the World. So my guess is that WM is a function (like a Kalman filter)
that

produces a predicted value of the controlled input, s, (call it s’) based
on

the output signal (b). So s’ = WM (b). Is that right?

The diagram doesn’t say anything about how s’ is used by the input
function,

S. The input function gets two inputs, the actual (s) and predicted
(s’)

value of the controlled (sensory) input to S. So, apparently, the output
of

S (which is the perceptual signal, p) is a function of s and s’. That is
p =

S (s,s’). So my next question is “what does the S function
do?”. Does S, for

example, subtract s and s’, so that p = s - s’, say?

It’s not clear to me what benefit the “mental rehearsal” loop,
which

includes the World Model (WM), provides regarding the control of
s.

If I can get some answers to these questions I think it would be easy
to

quickly implement this model as a computer program and see if the
inclusion

of prediction 1) improves control and/or 2) improves the fit of the model
to

behavioral data.

Best

Rick

Richard S. Marken

MindReadings.com

Home: 310 474 0313

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I’ll email Keith and see if it is Ok to attach the chapter.
I just flicked through it again and found it interesting and things I not
picked up before.
I agree with Martin it is based on Bill’s work.
such it is predictive, in the sense that the person is trying to work out
what will best achieve the goal through a process of thinking about it
and assessing sensed error. Keith also brings in Situational Awareness
into his discussion.
In terms of s and S. I think it is basically that s stand for stimuli (be
it from real world or world model), and this is transformed into a
perception by S (the input function).
In terms of helping “control”, I think imagining loop would
help in tasks whereby thinking about different output options, and their
ability to control perception of the goal, may help in reducing the
liklihood of error. I’m not the best at examples, but maybe say you were
working on a car and dropped a screw into a place you could not get your
hand into, or a pair on normal pliers. I would see myself (unconsiously)
making a model of the world where the problem is and then going through
thinking about the different items in my tool box, until I sensed
one might just get down far enough to get that bugger of a
screw.
I’d like to see the computer model of this if it was possible_ I may
however be going over old ground.
One other thing, I had the feeling that Jeff Vancouver was getting into
some of this sort of stuff, thinking in PCT?
Thanks Rohan

···

From my perspective I would see it as a “thinking model”. As
At 08:11 AM 12/02/2005, you wrote:
Rohan Lulham
Ph.D. Student
Environment, Behaviour and Society Research Group
Faculty of Architecture, University of Sydney
Australia

[From Rick Marken (2005.02.12.0900)]

Martin Taylor (2005.02.11.22.05) --

If you have the archives, check out [From Rick Marken (940202.1330)] et seq. It's a long discussion of just such a model, with results matched to those of the human subject (himself).

Those were the good ol' days, when it seemed like CSGNet could be a wonderful resource for scientific exploration.

Rick did both pursuit tracking and compensatory tracking of a randomly disturbed target and of a target disturbed by a slow sine wave. Because it's so long, I don't want to quote it all here,

I'd really appreciate it if you would send me a copy of the whole thread. I don't think I did anything particularly interesting, model-wise; it looks like I just compared my performance to a model that perfectly predicted a sine target versus one that didn't. The model sounds completely implausible to me -- the "predicted" target position reference being gotten by sampling ahead in the sine table, something humans obviously can't really do. I think what was interesting about this work is that I found what others have found: that tracking a "predictable" (sine) target is better (in terms of RMS error and possibly stability) than tracking a less predictable (quasi-random) target.

If it is hard to get [From Rick Marken (940202.1330)] and the ensuing discussion from the archives, I could repost it, but it would be perhaps longer than most would want to get in one shot. I do think, though that the work warrants being made generally accessible (if it isn't already) on the CSG Web site.

If you have the whole thread, could you please send it to me. Maybe I'll turn it into a web demo.

My guess is that a proper PCT model of this situation (sine vs random target movement in a pursuit task) would be one that controls (or does not control) for a pattern of movement. If the model knows (the third level to which I allude in my post) that the target is moving in a sine pattern, it can control for perceiving the cursor moving in the same sine pattern. Controlling for a regular temporal pattern would look like prediction but prediction is not actually involved. If I can see the old posts perhaps I can see if I am now smart enough to develop a model that controls for a temporal input pattern.

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[Martin Taylor 2005.02.12.13.43]

[From Rick Marken (2005.02.12.0900)]

Martin Taylor (2005.02.11.22.05) --

If you have the archives, check out [From Rick Marken (940202.1330)] et seq. It's a long discussion of just such a model, with results matched to those of the human subject (himself).

Those were the good ol' days, when it seemed like CSGNet could be a wonderful resource for scientific exploration.

Rick did both pursuit tracking and compensatory tracking of a randomly disturbed target and of a target disturbed by a slow sine wave. Because it's so long, I don't want to quote it all here,

I'd really appreciate it if you would send me a copy of the whole thread.

Done

I don't think I did anything particularly interesting, model-wise; it looks like I just compared my performance to a model that perfectly predicted a sine target versus one that didn't. The model sounds completely implausible to me -- the "predicted" target position reference being gotten by sampling ahead in the sine table, something humans obviously can't really do.

However, they can come pretty close, and you did do that as an easy approximation to taking the derivative of the target motion and adding it to the reference target position. That's not perfect, but at the 18 degree phase angle advance you found, it's a pretty good approximation.

Anyway, what followed was that I used your intended model, substituting the real derivative for the approximation, in modelling the performance of sleep-deprived people tracking in a variety of different tasks porgrammed by Bill P. Over the course of the second of two nights of sleep deprivation, the weight given to the predicted value as opposed to the currently observed value increased. In other wrods, they tended to control for where they thought the target was going to go, more than they would have done earlier in the sleep-loss period.

I think what was interesting about this work is that I found what others have found: that tracking a "predictable" (sine) target is better (in terms of RMS error and possibly stability) than tracking a less predictable (quasi-random) target.

If you found that, and accept that others have found it, why have you recently been suggesting that theirs no effect of prediction in control? The ONLY difference between the two types of target is how far into the future their variations can be predicted.

My guess is that a proper PCT model of this situation (sine vs random target movement in a pursuit task) would be one that controls (or does not control) for a pattern of movement. If the model knows (the third level to which I allude in my post) that the target is moving in a sine pattern, it can control for perceiving the cursor moving in the same sine pattern.

That may be a plausible "out" for your sinusoid targets, but it won't do for the targets in my study, which were built by adding several sinusoids. Nor would it be consistent with the Bourbon-Powers analysis in which they destroyed that concept of "preplanned-output-control".

I realize that it takes quite a bit of mental agility to avoid the conclusion that prediction can help control, but I also realize that you have what it takes. Personally, I favour using Occam's razor. If it looks like prediction and models with prediction fit the data beautifully, then it's probably prediction. However, I acknowledge that not all waddling bird-like things that quack are necessarily ducks.

Martin

[From Erling Jorgensen (2005.02.12 1500 EST)]

[Martin Taylor 2005.02.12.13.43]

[From Rick Marken (2005.02.12.0900)]

I don't think I did anything particularly interesting,

model-wise; it looks like I just compared my performance
to a model that perfectly predicted a sine target versus
one that didn't.

It seems there would be alternate models to test the data
against, to see whether a model embodying "prediction"
fits the data better than a model controlling other forms
of present-time perceptions.

With a standard PCT tracking task, the main variable being
controlled is a Relationship-perception (i.e., distance
between cursor and target). To do that with random
disturbances, the subject uses a lot of pushing & pulling
movements of the mouse, which I interpret as two behavioral
Event-perceptions, being varied as needed to try to
maintain adequate Relationship control. Those pushing &
pulling Events are being implemented by fairly frequent
changes of Transition-perceptions, as the direction of
movement varies as needed. And so forth, out the hierarchy.

I realize with the demos we leave these dynamics to the
environment, including the layers of control in the subject,
and just measure the result in terms of the target-minus-
cursor Relationship.

When the disturbance waveform -- [or I guess in this case
it's the reference waveform for the pursuit tracking?] -- is
regular instead of random, as with a sine wave, then it seems
the subject spends longer controlling for a steady Transition
(e.g., moving the mouse up), and less frequently having to
reverse directions as as the sine wave peaks.

I'm not sure if I'm labeling the perceptions right here.
The notion I started with is that the nature of the
"prediction" test condition may be getting implemented
(primarily) at a different level of control -- in this
case, Transition rather than Event, (although still with
an overriding Relationship control-task calling the shots).

I think this suggests an alternate reason for the improved
results when the subject is controlling for a "predictable"
(i.e., regularly changing) situation. And I would think a
competing model could be developed to test against the data.

In particular, it might include a smooth-velocity control
system, linked to a change-of-direction control system. If
something like this fit the data better than a model that
utilizes some form of "predictive" phase-shifted sampling,
that would seem to be a form of "strong inference" experiment
(in the sense that John Platt used the term) for leaning us
toward one model or the other.

An idea in passing is whether what I am saying about control
at different levels opens up the possibility of different
time constants. I don't know if this could be a further
way of differentiating between competing models.

Just some ideas to put into the mix, Rick, if you can do
anything with them.

All the best,
Erling

[From Bill Powers (2005.02.12.1558 MST)]

Martin Taylor 2005.02.11.16.40 --

Rohan Lulham (2005.02.12)

I am not quite up on the thread but attached is Keith Hendy's diagram based on PCT, and a thinking or prediction process? Maybe useful to discussion.

Yes. I think that this is a very useful contribution to the discussion. At
least it's diagram that could be the basis of a working (testable) model.
There are several questions I have about it. Perhaps you can answer them
based on Hendy's paper. If you can't, perhaps we could get Hendy himself
involved in this discussion.

My first question is "is this supposed to be a model of control that
includes prediction"? If so, then I would guess that the World Model (WM) is
doing the prediction. Is that right?

I would assume that it's just the well-known "imagination loop". At least that's what it looks like.

The world model seems to produce a predicted value of the controlled
variable, s. The prediction seems to be based on input from the output
function. This input is called b (for behavior, I presume) when it goes into
the World. So my guess is that WM is a function (like a Kalman filter) that
produces a predicted value of the controlled input, s, (call it s') based on
the output signal (b). So s' = WM (b). Is that right?

Here's one problem with Hendy's diagram as shown: how is the signal that enters the comparator derived from the two sources, the sensory input and the world model? The box labeled S receives information from those two sources and emits two signal. What do the two signals represent? Are thery each the sum of signals from the two sources? Their product? The exclusive-or of them? Some complex polynomial in two variables? Their difference? Is each signal a different function of both inputs, or is each signal a function only of one one of the inputs? Obviously, each one of those possibilities would result in controlling a different controlled variable.

How does the box S know that the left-hand output is a function of sensory inputs, and the other is a function of the models output? How does the box G know whether its output should go to the world model and be a function of the imagined error, or go to the outside world, and be a function of the upper error signal? Or is each output of G a function of both inputs?

Some vital details have been left out of this model -- it wouldn't be possible to simulate it in a computer without a lot of added information.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2005.02.12.1626 MST)]

Martin Taylor 2005.02.11.22.05 --

If you have the archives, check out [From Rick Marken (940202.1330)] et seq. It's a long discussion of just such a model, with results matched to those of the human subject (himself). Rick did both pursuit tracking and compensatory tracking of a randomly disturbed target and of a target disturbed by a slow sine wave. Because it's so long, I don't want to quote it all here, but the model is described. I'll just quote this paragraph:

I'll check it out. Rick, do you have the program for this experiment? I'd like to see it. I haven't tried much with predictable waveforms, but they should give interesting information. I use random disturbances to keep from getting into such questions, but I suppose it can't be put off forever.

Martin, do you have plans to pursue this line of research? It could be useful.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2005.02.12.1644 MST)]

Rick Marken (2005.02.12.0900)--

model-wise; it looks like I just compared my performance to a model that perfectly predicted a sine target versus one that didn't. The model sounds completely implausible to me -- the "predicted" target position reference being gotten by sampling ahead in the sine table, something humans obviously can't really do. I think what was interesting about this work is that I found what others have found: that tracking a "predictable" (sine) target is better (in terms of RMS error and possibly stability) than tracking a less predictable (quasi-random) target.

I think we need to do this one again. It's pretty hard to equalize random and non-random for difficulty -- that is, for amplitude and rate of change of the disturbance. If a sine-wave is at a much lower frequency than the frequencies found in a random disturbance, you'd expect less error from the controller being, so the question still remains, "Is performance better for a predictable waveform, or for an unpredictable waveform that is equally difficult?" Of course that all boils down to what you mean by difficulty.

A simple model I have used involves one level that controls the rate of change of a variable and a higher level that controls the magnitude. I know that's backward from the way my proposed hierarchy is arranged, but it works quite well. I used that model in showing John Flach that the apparent adaptation to leading, proportional, and lagging loads is an illusion.

One way to handle this would be to ask the question, "At what frequency is the error under a sine-wave disturbance the same as the error under a smoothed random disturbance?" If performance is better for the sine-wave disturbance at all frequencies up to the maximum in the random disturbance, we can conclude that there is predictive control going on.

Then, of course, you should take the model with prediction and see how it fares under the random disturbance. I wouldn't be too surprised if the ordinary model also did better under the sine-wave disturbance even without prediction. That one I can try.

Best,

Bill P.

···

If it is hard to get [From Rick Marken (940202.1330)] and the ensuing discussion from the archives, I could repost it, but it would be perhaps longer than most would want to get in one shot. I do think, though that the work warrants being made generally accessible (if it isn't already) on the CSG Web site.

If you have the whole thread, could you please send it to me. Maybe I'll turn it into a web demo.

My guess is that a proper PCT model of this situation (sine vs random target movement in a pursuit task) would be one that controls (or does not control) for a pattern of movement. If the model knows (the third level to which I allude in my post) that the target is moving in a sine pattern, it can control for perceiving the cursor moving in the same sine pattern. Controlling for a regular temporal pattern would look like prediction but prediction is not actually involved. If I can see the old posts perhaps I can see if I am now smart enough to develop a model that controls for a temporal input pattern.

Best

Rick
---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Bill Powers (2005.02.12.1655 MST)]

Martin Taylor 2005.02.12.13.43 --

However, they can come pretty close, and you did do that as an easy approximation to taking the derivative of the target motion and adding it to the reference target position. That's not perfect, but at the 18 degree phase angle advance you found, it's a pretty good approximation.

If you delay the feedback signal you will also get a phase advance in the output. And delaying the feedback signal is a lot easier and makes a lot more sense than advancing the reference signal (advancing the reference signal in the tracking situation destabilizes the system). What is the reference signal in a tracking situation? It's not the target position! You can prove that quickly by asking the subject to track with the cursor a half-inch above the target.

There's no reason to reject the idea that "prediction" can help control. But you have to get the prediction into the model in the right place. It's possible that the whole control model "predicts" where the target is going to go, without the model containing any predictive function at all.

If we want to include prediction in HPCT I have no objection at all. But let's do it right. In my mini-tutorial on the subject that's been going on for a few posts, I've been trying to get people to be more specific about what they mean by prediction and where they think it should go into the model. Maybe someone will come up with ways to do this that I haven't thought of. If we keep after this we will all probably learn something.

If you add "prediction" to the perceptual channel by adding a first derivative to the proportional signal, you get a perceptual signal that represents the state of the world as it will be in some small time interval into the future. The result is not to speed up control of the proportional component, but to slow it down. Rate feedback is also referred to as "damping" feedback.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2005.02.12.1620)]

Martin Taylor (2005.02.12.13.43)--

Rick Marken (2005.02.12.0900)

I'd really appreciate it if you would send me a copy of the whole thread.

Done

Thanks. It all comes back to me now. The research was really about demonstrating two levels of control, not about demonstrating predictive control. I have no idea why I left this where it was. I should have tested several more people and then written it up for publication.

I think what was interesting about this work is that I found what others have found: that tracking a "predictable" (sine) target is better (in terms of RMS error and possibly stability) than tracking a less predictable (quasi-random) target.

If you found that, and accept that others have found it, why have you recently been suggesting that theirs no effect of prediction in control?

Because the results don't really show that prediction is involved. What is probably going on is control of a configuration (the sine wave pattern of movement) that happens to be "drawn out" over time.

That may be a plausible "out" for your sinusoid targets, but it won't do for the targets in my study, which were built by adding several sinusoids.

But it was still a periodic pattern, recurring at the fundamental frequency.

Nor would it be consistent with the Bourbon-Powers analysis in which they destroyed that concept of "preplanned-output-control".

I don't understand that at all.

I realize that it takes quite a bit of mental agility to avoid the conclusion that prediction can help control, but I also realize that you have what it takes.

I'm not trying to avoid the conclusion that prediction can help control. If prediction can help control it would be fine with me -- and a fine discovery, I think. I just want to see evidence that this is what is going on. Better tracking of a repeating as opposed to a random signal is not necessarily evidence that prediction is involved. The only way to tell is to write a real predictive model (mine was a _fake_ predictive model because it contained no prediction algorithm) and see how well it matches some real behavior.

Thanks again for finding those old posts.

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

Here’s one problem with Hendy’s diagram as shown: how is the signal that
enters the comparator derived from the two sources, the sensory input and
the world model?

The box labeled
S receives information from those two sources and emits two signal. What
do the two signals represent? Are thery each the sum of signals from the
two sources? Their product? The exclusive-or of them?

My sense of the model is that similar processes occur at S and G
functions, whether it be controlling a variable in the World or
“imagined World”. A thinking process, and the control of a
variable in the world, I think are best at least initially considered as
two different processes, although using similar S and G
functions.

It may best be considered a way of choosing the best output, at the lower
level which I think is being suggested in the discussion at the moment.
The associative memory function you talked about as being involved in the
selection of output, which in itself is not clearly defined as you have
identified, likely will not always be effective in novel situations for
identifying an appropriate output to reduce error. What the imagination
loop has the ability to do is test different outputs in the imagined
environment, and give the person the sense of what may work_ what they
predict will work. It sort of summed up in the common phrase “think
before you act”. I accept many behaviours do not require this
thinking but some important situations may benefit from it and it is as
such an important adaptive response that living systems may have
developed.

Better stop here and get back to the thesis. It seems like many of your
other queries are getting worked through.

thanks

Rohan

Some complex
polynomial in two variables? Their difference? Is each signal a different
function of both inputs, or is each signal a function only of one one of
the inputs? Obviously, each one of those possibilities would result in
controlling a different controlled variable.

How does the box S know that the left-hand output is a function of
sensory inputs, and the other is a function of the models output? How
does the box G know whether its output should go to the world model and
be a function of the imagined error, or go to the outside world, and be a
function of the upper error signal? Or is each output of G a function of
both inputs?

Some vital details have been left out of this model – it wouldn’t be
possible to simulate it in a computer without a lot of added
information.

Best,

Bill P.

Rohan Lulham
Ph.D. Student
Environment, Behaviour and Society Research Group
Faculty of Architecture, University of Sydney
Australia

[From Bjorn Simonsen (2005.02.13, 10:26 EST)]

From Bill Powers (2005.02.11.1145 MST)

Bjorn Simonsen (2005.02.11,10:00 EST)--

The memory switches in HPCT memory model are something else then dendrites

and axons.

Why? An inhibitory signal reaching a dendrite from one neuron can stop a
second input from another neuron from sending signals through the same
dendrite. That is like switching the second input off. Removing the
inhibiting signal switches it back on. There are other ways do accomplish
this with neurons having high firing thresholds. I see no problem with
using neurons as switches. What is your objection to that idea?

I guess you misunderstand what I think when I say "switches in the HPCT
memory model are something else then dendrites and axons". I meant that they
_don't_ seize new neurons and later retreat from them.

Of course memory in HPCT is about dendrites and axons. I think the switches
have something with the quality in the dendrites and the axons (and the cell
bodies) to do.
Yes, removing _or feeding_ an inhibiting signal or _an exciting signal_ are
qualities that explains the memory switches for me. When an inhibiting
signal is removed, the quality in the neuron is changed.

Let me concretize with an example.
1. I _always_ "wish to protect me against rain". Somewhere this reference is
_always_ active. When I stay inside my home I perceive "protected against
rain", and at the same time _don't_ see (perceive) any rain through the
window, the error is zero. No actions.
2. When I perceive "protected against rain" and I see (perceive) through the
window that it is raining outside, this disturbance change my perception
"protected against rain", and the error changes. But the error doesn't
change so much that it activates any actions. I don't open an umbrella.
Nobody can see me executing any actions. But still I perceive the rain
through the window.
When I perceive and also am disturbed by some controlled variables and don't
exercise any actions, I am just "thinking", imagining or remembering.
If this remembering is exercised at the same time I am controlling "my wish
to go outside" and this control loop interacts with 1), the error is still
changed. But the error still doesn't change so much that it activates any
actions. I still don't open an umbrella.
3. When I get out and feel the rain against my face (or something like
that), my perceptions are changed so much that it activates some actions.
One of them are "I open my umbrella".

Of course all these changed perceptions are a result of (your quotation)
"Removing the inhibiting signal switches it back on" or mine quotation "
Yes, removing _or feeding_ an inhibiting signal or _an exciting signal_ are
qualities that explains the memory switches for me".

I will continue my answer in another mail.

Bjorn

Re: Prediction
[Martin Taylor 2005.02.12.19.55]

[From Bill Powers (2005.02.12.1655
MST)]

Martin Taylor 2005.02.12.13.43 –

However, they can come pretty close, and
you did do that as an easy approximation to taking the derivative of
the target motion and adding it to the reference target position.
That’s not perfect, but at the 18 degree phase angle advance you
found, it’s a pretty good approximation.

If you delay the feedback signal you will also get a phase advance in
the output.

I must be missing something here. Taken literally, you are saying
that if it takes longer for the output to affect the cursor that is
supposed to follow the target being pursued, the cursor is phase
advanced. I’m sure you can’t mean that!

And delaying the feedback signal is
a lot easier and makes a lot more sense than advancing the reference
signal (advancing the reference signal in the tracking situation
destabilizes the system). What is the reference signal in a tracking
situation? It’s not the target position! You can prove that quickly by
asking the subject to track with the cursor a half-inch above the
target.

The reference in a pursuit tracking task is the magnitude (e.g.
position) of the target. Call that R(t). With prediction it is R(t) +
k R’(t), in other words, it is a place where the target will be some
time (determined by k) in the future if the target doesn’t change its
velocity. If the time it takes the error to affect the cursor is the
same, and the target doesn’t change its velocity, the effect is the
same as it would be with a control system that had no lag.

“Advancing the reference signal” destabilizes if it
makes the effective loop gain exceed +1 at some frequency, as I
understand it. That can happen if you overdo it. But Rick’s experiment
suggested a phase shift of about 18 degrees, and whether that’s what
the brain does or not, his model with that phase shift did not
destabilize.

I know how easy it is to set up unstable “control”
loops by making small shifts in lags and in the phase shifts that
accompany changes in the amount of prediction. Likewise, eating too
much salt will kill you, but salt isn’t a listed drug!

If we want to include prediction in HPCT
I have no objection at all. But let’s do it right. In my mini-tutorial
on the subject that’s been going on for a few posts, I’ve been trying
to get people to be more specific about what they mean by prediction
and where they think it should go into the model.

The model I used was like this for pursuit tracking, if I
remember correctly (I’d have to dig up the C code and interpret it to
be 100% sure):

Consider a bog-standard control loop: The perceptual
input P was taken to be the cursor position. The target position was
taken to be perceived through an identical sensor/perceptual input
system, and its value used as the reference R. To include
“prediction” the derivative of the target position was
multiplied by some constant (which theoretically could have had a
positive or a negative value), and added to the actual target position
to form the “reference with prediction”. (I assumed this was
effectively what Rick had done, and I still think it was.) The error E
then is the present cursor position compared against the anticipated
target position, which intuitively seems to me to be the right thing
to do in general.

The results were that the model fitted better with prediction
than without, and that the value of the predictor multiplier tended to
be larger during the difficult time of the second sleepless
night.

If you add “prediction” to the
perceptual channel by adding a first derivative to the proportional
signal, you get a perceptual signal that represents the state of the
world as it will be in some small time interval into the future. The
result is not to speed up control of the proportional component, but
to slow it down.

Yes, but that’s not quite the same, is it? To do as you suggest
would be to match the anticipated future cursor position (if you
didn’t change your output velocity) against the present target
position. Not what you would want to achieve. Given that there’s a lag
between what you now perceive and the situation of the world by the
time your output affects the world, you want to be matching where the
target will be.

Martin

ctrl5.logo.gif

[From Rick Marken (2005.02.13.1040)]

Bill Powers (2005.02.12.1644 MST)--

Rick Marken (2005.02.12.0900)--

model-wise; it looks like I just compared my performance to a model that perfectly predicted a sine target versus one that didn't...

I think we need to do this one again.

I agree. And I will. I've attached the entire post that I wrote back in 1994. I think it addresses many of the concerns you express in this post. I think it's a promising approach to research on levels of control. I don't know why I didn't continue with it. Working on other stuff, I guess.

Best regards

Rick

From: "Marken, Richard S." <Marken@COURIER4.AERO.ORG>
Subject: Hierarchical control research
To: Multiple recipients of list CSG-L <CSG-L%UIUCVMD.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu>
Status: RO

[From Rick Marken (940202.1330)]

The following is a LONG discussion of a little research I've
been doing on hierarchical control. Non-PCT-fanatics (ie. normal
human beings) might want to skip this, though I would really
appreciate ANY comments, questions and, especially, suggestions.
---------

I have just completed some preliminary experiments (written in
Hypercard-- I hate myself for doing it but it's sooo easy) that
suggest a potentially nice new way of demonstrating hierarchical
control in action. The basic experimental setup can be diagrammed
as follows:

                dt-->t
                dc-->c<--m

There is a display with a moving target (t) above a movable cursor (c).
Target position at any instant is determined by the current value
of a number series called dt (disturbance to target); cursor position
at any instant is determined by the sum of two values 1) the current
value of a number series called dc (disturbance to the cursor) and the
current output of the mouse port, m (which is the integral of mouse
movement on a surface).

The subject is asked to keep the cursor, c, aligned with with the
target, t. This is a simple example of a combined pursuit and
compensatory tracking task. Pursuit tracking is involved in keeping
c aligned with t despite changes in t (this is like keeping the image
of the hood of your car in its lane on a winding road). Compensatory
tracking is involved in keeping c in its intended position despite
disturbances to its position (this is like keeping the car in its
intended position despite invisible disturbances such cross winds).

Long ago I thought that this task might provide a basis for revealing two
levels of control: one level of control handles the "pursuit" aspect
of the task, controlling the difference between t and c (so the
controlled variable is t-c); the other (lower) level of control just
controls c. It is possible to build a hierarchical control model that
will perform this task: the higher level t-c controller acts by
setting the reference for the c controller. But I could find no evidence
in the data that two levels of control were actually involved in this
task: all aspects of the data were handled by a simple, single level
control system controlling t-c (by varying the output variable, m,
directly).

A post from Martin Taylor suggested to me a new way to approach this
problem. Martin (for reasons other than revealing hierarchical control)
suggested doing a combined pursuit/compensatory task where in one condition
target movement was predictable and in another not. I knew that pursuit
tracking would be better with the predictable; I suspected that the
compensatory aspect of the tracking would remain unchanged. If this
were the case, it would reveal two levels of control very clearly;
control of both the "pursuit" variable (the "pattern" of target
motion) and the compensatory variable (t-c) could be observed
simultaneously AND control of the compensatory variable could be seen
as the MEANS of controlling the pursuit variable.

The basic "levels revealing" experiment is pretty simple. The subject
does the tracking task as usual (trying to keep c = t). In one
condition of the experiment, dt is a smoothed random series (the
usual PCT kind); in the other condition , dt is a sine wave (of
about the same frequency as the center frequency of the random
series-- about .3Hz). In both conditions, the disturbance to the
cursor, dc, is exactly the same.

My approach to analyzing the results was based on measuring
control of t-c and c in the two conditions using the "stability
factor". I would have used RMS error but I realized that my
selection of the reference level for c would be arbitrary.
The stability factor measures control in terms of the ratio
of expected to observed variance in a hypothetical controlled
variable. The stability factor for the "pursuit" variable
(t-c) was computed as follows:

S = [var(dt)+var(c)]/var(t-c)

The numerator is the "expected variance" of t-c if there is
NO control. The expected variance would be proportional to
the sum of the variances of dt -- var(dt) -- and c-- var(c).
If there is control the actual, observed variance of t-c --
var(t-c) -- should be much smaller than the expected variance,
and S should be much greater than 1. If there is no control,
the expected and actual variance of t-c will be the same and S=1.

The stability factor for the "compensatory" variable (c)
was computed as follows:

S = [var(dc)+var(m)]/var(c)

Again, the expected variance of the cursor is proportional
to the sum of the variances of the variables that affect it,
in this case dc and m. If there is control, the observed var(c)
will be less than expected and S will be greater than 1.

What's nice about this stability calculation is that is does
not depend on estimates of reference levels. In fact, the
reference level for c was shifting a great deal during the
experiment but the stability factor showed that c was under
control.

Here are some representative results with yours truly as subject:

     Type of Target Movement (dt)
          Random Sine Wave

Pursuit 6.88 15.8

Comp 3.7 2.1

The numbers are stability factors (S) indicating the ability
to control the pursuit (t-c) and compensatory (c) variables
when target movement was random vs predictable (sine).
Very nearly the same S values were obtained every time I
did the experiment. The interesting result is that, while pursuit
control (the ability to control t-c) improves substantially
(it more than doubles, going from 6.88 to 15.8) when the
target is predictable (a well known fact), compensatory control
(control of the position of the cursor relative to a changing
reference level) remains the same (or even declines). In fact,
the apparent decline in compensatory control is an artifact
of the difference in the variance of the reference level in the
random and sine wave target movement conditions. I found this
out by running a single level control model (with parameters
adjusted for best fit) in both conditions. The single level model
controlled only t-c and it did so by varying m using a pure
integrator in the output. The computer version of the "system
equation" for the model was:

m := m + g* (t-c)

where t-c is the perceptual signal, the reference signal value is
implicitly zero and m is the simulated mouse output.

The results of running this model under the same conditions as
the subject (same dt and dc) were are follows:

     Type of Target Movement (dt)
          Random Sine Wave

Pursuit 6.67 6.26

Comp 3.78 2.5

Note that the model's ability to control the pursuit variable
is exactly the same with both random and sine disturbances. This
is expected since the model has no way to take advantage of the
predictability of the sine disturbance. But note that the model's
ability to control the compensatory variable is almost exactly
the same as the subject's IN BOTH CONDITIONS. This is strong
evidence that we are looking at two levels of control when the
SUBJECT is controlling with the predictable target.

Stronger evidence comes from my preliminary attempts to develop
a two level model of this task. The lowest level is almost
identical to the single level of the first model but the reference
signal is now the predicted position of the target, t', rather than
the target itseld (as it was, functionally, in the first model). I
haven't really modelled the second level system yet (the one that
produces the predicted target positions -- which are reference inputs
to the lower level system). I got the predicted target positions, t',
for the model by sampling ahead in the sine distrubance table.
The model that generated stability factors closest to the one's
observed sampled the equivalent of [ ] ahead. [ Martin: If you are
reading this, can you intuit, based on IT, how far ahead the model had to
predict the since disturbance in order to match the subject's
performance?]. Here are the results for this "two level" model:

     Type of Target Movement (dt)
          Random Sine Wave

Pursuit 6.67 15.85

Comp 3.78 2.4

(The one level model was used again to get the data in the
random condition).

There is actually a third level of control evident in the
behavior in this experiment. It is the level that notices
that the target has become predictable. The subject is clearly
not using predictive control with the random target -- there is
nothing to predict. The third level system "switches" in the second
level system that let's the purpuit control system control (t'-c)
rather than (t-c). I became personally aware of this third
level while I was blithly testing my program. At one point, though
inattention, I failed to notice the change from random to predictable
target (marked only by the posting of data from the end of the run).
So I just kept tracking the target position as though I did not
know here it was going to be at the next instant; in other words,
I kept tracking the sine wave target as though it was still the
random target. When the program printed out the results I was
alarmed becuase it shows that my ability to control with the
predictable target was EXACTLY the same as my ability to control
with the random target. At first, I though that perhaps results
like those shown in the first table above did not occur reliably. In
fact, the results only occur reliably if the subject is actually
controlling a higher level variable (t'-c) rather than (t-c) in the
predictable target condition. I loved it; my little lapse showed (once
again) that it is the subject, not the "stimulus situation", who controls
what happens in this experiment. And with PCT you can tell exactly what the
subject is controlling.

There is still much more detailed model testing to do -- and I
have a nice idea for some future experiments -- but I feel like I've
nudged the door to hierarchical control open just a crack -- maybe.

Best

Rick

Thought is the thought of thought -- James Joyce, "Ulysses"

Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Bill Powers (2005.02.13.1335 MST)]

I must be missing something
here. Taken literally, you are saying that if it takes longer for the
output to affect the cursor that is supposed to follow the target being
pursued, the cursor is phase advanced. I’m sure you can’t mean
that!

I am using your model in which you (and Rick) advanced the reference
signal. If the reference signal is not advanced, but the perceptual
signal is delayed instead, the result is that changes in the reference
signal are not reduced by the negative feedback until after a delay,
which has the effect of advancing the phase of the error signal.

The reference in a pursuit
tracking task is the magnitude (e.g. position) of the target. Call that
R(t). With prediction it is R(t) + k R’(t), in other words, it is a place
where the target will be some time (determined by k) in the future if the
target doesn’t change its velocity. If the time it takes the error to
affect the cursor is the same, and the target doesn’t change its
velocity, the effect is the same as it would be with a control system
that had no lag.

That is what Flach said, and what Forrester and Eberlein said, too. I
disagree with that idea. I think that reference signals are inside the
head, not outside in the environment. In my model of pursuit tracking,
the perceptual signal represents the difference between cursor and target
positions: C - T. The reference signal specifies how large that
difference is to be. If R = 0, then the action will make the cursor
position track the target position. If R = A, then the action will make
the cursor remain A units above the target. It’s easy to demonstrate that
people can do this. The only model that can explain the behavior for all
values of A is the one where the reference signal specifies the perceived
distance betweeh cursor and target. If you consider only the case of A =
0 (Cursor-target distance of zero), the math is the same whether you put
the reference signal inside or outside. The variant in which A is not
equal to zero distinguishes the two models. My analysis program
determines the reference level from the data, so it reproduces the
behavior for all values of A.

The model I used was like this
for pursuit tracking, if I remember correctly (I’d have to dig up the C
code and interpret it to be 100% sure):

Consider a bog-standard control
loop:[] The perceptual input
P was taken to be the cursor position. The target position was taken to
be perceived through an identical sensor/perceptual input system, and its
value used as the reference R.

Yes, this is how I understood the model to work. The prediction would be
part of the input function for the reference signal, but not for the
perceptual signal.

To include
“prediction” the derivative of the target position was
multiplied by some constant (which theoretically could have had a
positive or a negative value), and added to the actual target position to
form the “reference with prediction”. (I assumed this was
effectively what Rick had done, and I still think it was.) The error E
then is the present cursor position compared against the anticipated
target position, which intuitively seems to me to be the right thing to
do in general.

The main problem I see is that of having to have two perceptual signals,
one of which turns into a reference signal without being the output of a
higher-order control system. We’ll have to investigate further, I
think.

But not just now – I’m still trying to wrap up that program for David
Goldstein, which is supposed to allow me to get back to work on the book
… the other problems you raise will just have to wait a while, unless
you work out the answers for yourself.

Best,

Bill P>

[Martin Taylor 2005.02.13.18:00]

[From Bill Powers (2005.02.13.1335 MST)]

The reference in a pursuit tracking task is the magnitude (e.g. position) of the target. Call that R(t). With prediction it is R(t) + k R'(t), in other words, it is a place where the target will be some time (determined by k) in the future if the target doesn't change its velocity. If the time it takes the error to affect the cursor is the same, and the target doesn't change its velocity, the effect is the same as it would be with a control system that had no lag.

That is what Flach said, and what Forrester and Eberlein said, too. I disagree with that idea. I think that reference signals are inside the head, not outside in the environment.

You've got to be joking, right? Are you saying that you think I believe reference signals are in the environment?

In the task at hand, however the reference signal is set, which we presume is something to do with the subject's intention to let the experimenter believe the subject is doing the task as requested, that reference is for the cursor movement to match the target movement. This requires that the subject have a means of perceiving the target movement, some means of perceiving the cursor movement, and some means of comparing them.

In my model of pursuit tracking, the perceptual signal represents the difference between cursor and target positions: C - T.

Fair enough. That's a mathematically equivalent way of looking at the model.

The reference signal specifies how large that difference is to be. If R = 0, then the action will make the cursor position track the target position. If R = A, then the action will make the cursor remain A units above the target. It's easy to demonstrate that people can do this. The only model that can explain the behavior for all values of A is the one where the reference signal specifies the perceived distance betweeh cursor and target.

Again fair enough. The same applies to the model I used, too. You just have to add a constant to the reference to say that C should be R + A rather than R. No problem.

If you consider only the case of A = 0 (Cursor-target distance of zero), the math is the same whether you put the reference signal inside or outside. The variant in which A is not equal to zero distinguishes the two models. My analysis program determines the reference level from the data, so it reproduces the behavior for all values of A.

Likewise, since the models are equivalent. There's enough degrees of freedom in the analysis that the one you remove in determining the reference level doesn't alter much. When it could become problematic is if you let the reference value change during a run, which loses more degrees of freedom. In the limiting case, it would tell you that the subject moved the reference rapidly, so that the error was always zero! But I have no problems with computing one fixed reference level for a run that has dozens of degrees of freedom for fitting a small number of parameters such as gain, loop delay, and prediction advance. And it doesn't matter for this computation whether "A" is a constant different from zero for a perception of C-T, or a constant added to a varying target position T.

The main problem I see is that of having to have two perceptual signals, one of which turns into a reference signal without being the output of a higher-order control system.

The only reason I model without introducing a separate higher level control system for perception of the target is that it simplifies the diagram to do so. The end result of introducing one or more higher-level control systems would necessarily be to produce a reference that required C = T, whether the perception was C and the reference T or the perception C-T and the reference zero. The exact same model works by using the C-T difference as the perception to be kept at zero, and subtracting the predictor component instead of adding it. To tell the truth, I don't remember at this remove which version I actually used. Probably I couldn't tell from reading the code, anyway, since they both come out the same.

Anyway, that's all beside the point, isn't it? The point is that whichever way you model it, both Rick and I found that incorporating the predictive component improved the fit of the model to real data. Rick may be right that the same result can be interpreted differently, but he'd have to prove that the different interpretation was at least as plausible withint the context of the general theory. I think that would be hard, besides which, the question raised was whether prediction _could_ improve the tracking performance of a model, not whether prediction _does_ occur in the real world. Rick demonstrated that it could, and my data as well as his suggest that it can also improve the fit of models to real world data.

We'll have to investigate further, I think.

As is always true.

Martin

[Martin Taylor 2005.02.13.22.19]

[From Rick Marken (2005.02.13.1040)]

Bill Powers (2005.02.12.1644 MST)--

Rick Marken (2005.02.12.0900)--

model-wise; it looks like I just compared my performance to a model that perfectly predicted a sine target versus one that didn't...

I think we need to do this one again.

I agree. And I will. I've attached the entire post that I wrote back in 1994. I think it addresses many of the concerns you express in this post. I think it's a promising approach to research on levels of control. I don't know why I didn't continue with it. Working on other stuff, I guess.

Rick didn't attach the following postings, which aren't necessary to make his point. But I think my second one (in which I made a wrong prediction) is worth resurrecting, because it illustrates how I think, even now, prediction works to improve control.

So, with apologies for length, here are my responses to Rick, and his to me, from 1994.

Martin

---------1994 thread, continued-----------

X-To: CSG-L%UIUCVMD.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu
Status: RO

<Martin Taylor 940204 18:30>

Rick Marken (940202.1330)

A nice experiment, Rick.

Martin (for reasons other than revealing hierarchical control)
suggested doing a combined pursuit/compensatory task where in one condition
target movement was predictable and in another not.

I don't remember. What I do remember was a discussion on making the
handle-cursor relation variable. But no matter--what you have done is
worth doing.

In one
condition of the experiment, dt is a smoothed random series (the
usual PCT kind); in the other condition , dt is a sine wave (of
about the same frequency as the center frequency of the random
series-- about .3Hz). In both conditions, the disturbance to the
cursor, dc, is exactly the same.

Random, like the random version of dt?

The model that generated stability factors closest to the one's
observed sampled the equivalent of [ ] ahead. [ Martin: If you are
reading this, can you intuit, based on IT, how far ahead the model had to
predict the since disturbance in order to match the subject's
performance?].

Very roughly, 180 msec according to my calculations. My intuition would
have said about double that. I don't know which to trust. But I'll have
to go with 180 msec unless I can find a mistake in the calculation. You
obviously know the right answer, so we'll see.

But note that the model's
ability to control the compensatory variable is almost exactly
the same as the subject's IN BOTH CONDITIONS. This is strong
evidence that we are looking at two levels of control when the
SUBJECT is controlling with the predictable target.

I don't see the logic here. To me it is strong evidence that the subject
is using the prediction information, but that could be manifest in any
manner, including multi-level control. You have shown that you can make
a 2-level model that produces a good match to the human data, but you
haven't shown what the second level perceives or is controlling. All
you have done is to provide a prediction as a reference signal. You as
experimenter know where this prediction comes from. Where does the
hypothesized second-level control system get it from?

If you have a single-level self-tuning predictor, won't you get similar
results?

At one point, though
inattention, I failed to notice the change from random to predictable
target (marked only by the posting of data from the end of the run).
So I just kept tracking the target position as though I did not
know here it was going to be at the next instant; in other words,
I kept tracking the sine wave target as though it was still the
random target. When the program printed out the results I was
alarmed becuase it shows that my ability to control with the
predictable target was EXACTLY the same as my ability to control
with the random target.

That IS an interesting observation, indeed, whether the prediction comes
from a second level or not. I wonder how general it is. Do we switch
into prediction mode depending on what we consciously expect in any given
situation? It sounds as if that was what you did. What does that mean
for the global connections in the hierarchy? Is there something external
to the ECS network that kicks prediction in and out as the situation
changes? What does this "something" perceive? What does it control?

Now I have a question: is it in general true that compensatory tracking
is worse than pursuit tracking with essentially the same display (apart
from the target movement)? If so, why? I have some notions, a bit vague,
but my notions would say that it is not always the case. Does anybody know?

Going home now. The sleep-loss subjects have had a good night's sleep
and have run more tests. Now they are relaxing and being wired up again
prior to sleeping "normally" tonight. Tomorrow morning they go home, and
we start analyzing what happened. Tuesday we discuss how to run the
experiment better (could that be possible?) the following week. And so on
for 10 more weeks.

Martin

···

From: mmt@BEN.dciem.dnd.ca
Subject: Re: Hierarchical control research
To: Multiple recipients of list CSG-L <CSG-L%UIUCVMD.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu>

----------------------
Subject: Re: Rick's predictor time advance
X-To: CSG-L%UIUCVMD.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list CSG-L <CSG-L%UIUCVMD.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu>
Status: RO

<Martin Taylor 940205 12:30>

<Martin Taylor 940204 18:30>

Rick Marken (940202.1330)

The model that generated stability factors closest to the one's
observed sampled the equivalent of [ ] ahead. [ Martin: If you are
reading this, can you intuit, based on IT, how far ahead the model had to
predict the since disturbance in order to match the subject's
performance?].

Very roughly, 180 msec according to my calculations. My intuition would
have said about double that. I don't know which to trust. But I'll have
to go with 180 msec unless I can find a mistake in the calculation.

Yes, I think I found a mistake. Here's the rationale, the calculation,
and the mistake.

Rick found a stability factor of 6.67 with a random target, and 15.85 with
a sine wave target when the model was augmented by applying a phase-advanced
sinusoid as the reference signal. The stability factor is the ratio between
the variance in the CEV that would have been expected if the control-system
output and the disturbance wave were uncorrelated to the variance actually
observed. That variance is related to the uncertainty of the perceptual
signal. To make the computation, I assumed that the predictor reference
signal brought the residual uncertainty of the disturbance to the same
level as the random one (actually, there's a second mistake. I should have
taken 6.26, the unpredicted pursuit stability factor for the sine wave.
Serves me right for trying to do this while rushing to go home after a
long day's work.)

So, the calculation is based on the notion that there was a reduction in
the amplitude of the effective disturbance wave sufficient to bring the
stability factor up by the ratio 15.85/6.26, a ratio of 1.59 (the square
root of the stability ratio). The reduction is assumed to be caused by
the subtraction of the prediction waveform from the disturbance waveform,
resulting in a sine wave having an amplitude 1/1.59 (0.63) times the
amplitude of the disturbance waveform.

Calling the disturbance wave sin(theta) and the prediction wave sin(theta+phi),
where phi represent the phase advance of the predictor waveform,
the peak amplitude of the difference wave (sin(theta) - sin(theta+phi))
occurs when theta= -phi/2. The amplitude of that peak is

sin(phi/2)-sin(-phi/2) = 2sin(phi/2)

which we want to be 0.63. So sin(phi/2) = 0.32, giving phi/2=18.5 degrees.

My second mistake (the one I spotted first) was to take this value as
the phase advance instead of half the phase advance. The real phase
advance should be 37 degrees.

Rick says that the frequency of the sine wave was 0.3 Hz, giving a period
of 3.3 seconds. A phase advance of 37 degrees give 340 msec, which is
my corrected estimate of the lead time for Rick's predictor reference
signal, in place of the 180 msec I gave in my previous response.

Maybe this is all wrong, but I'll go with it, at least for now.

Martin

-----------------------

From: Richard Marken <marken@AERO.ORG>
Subject: Mostly IT and PCT
X-To: csg-l@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list CSG-L <CSG-L%UIUCVMD.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu>
Status: RO

[From Rick Marken (940205.1930)]

Martin Taylor (940204 18:30) --

A nice experiment, Rick.

Thanks.

Very roughly, 180 msec according to my calculations.

That's RIGHT! And based on pretty reasonable guesses. But did
you notice that your very nice calculations (shown in your next
post where you revised your estimate to the wrong value) had nothing
to do with IT?

From [Marc Abrams (2005.02.13.2312)]

In a message dated 2/13/2005 10:21:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mmt-csg@ROGERS.COM writes:

[Martin Taylor 2005.02.13.18:00]

[From Bill Powers (2005.02.13.1335 MST)]

The reference in a pursuit tracking task is the magnitude (e.g.
position) of the target. Call that R(t). With prediction it is R(t)

  • k R’(t), in other words, it is a place where the target will be
    some time (determined by k) in the future if the target doesn’t
    change its velocity. If the time it takes the error to affect the
    cursor is the same, and the target doesn’t change its velocity, the
    effect is the same as it would be with a control system that had no
    lag.

That is what Flach said, and what Forrester and Eberlein said, too.
I disagree with that idea. I think that reference signals are inside
the head, not outside in the environment.
I have not been following this thread but I just read this post and saw something a bit baffling from Bill Powers and some nice news. Bill got this a bit confused.

Bob Eberlein, and Forrester just don’t care where the reference ‘signals’ come from. What concerns them is what overall effect it has on a system REGARDLESS of where it actually originates from.

*** Anyway, that’s all beside the point, isn’t it? The point is that
whichever way you model it, both Rick and I found that incorporating
the predictive component improved the fit of the model to real data.***
WOW!!!, Lookie here, ain’t this a kick in the pants. It seems Bruce Gregory and I might have made some sense after all.

Maybe there are other points that might prove useful as well?

But how can we ever know of them if you are unwilling to discuss them?

Rick may be right that the same result can be interpreted
differently, but he’d have to prove that the different interpretation
was at least as plausible withint the context of the general theory.
I think that would be hard, besides which, the question raised was
whether prediction could improve the tracking performance of a
model, not whether prediction does occur in the real world. Rick
demonstrated that it could, and my data as well as his suggest that
it can also improve the fit of models to real world data.

We’ll have to investigate further, I think.

As is always true.

Martin
Nice work Martin, good for you.

Marc

···

[From Rick Marken (2005.02.13.2035)]

Martin Taylor (2005.02.13.18:00) --

Anyway, that's all beside the point, isn't it? The point is that whichever way you model it, both Rick and I found that incorporating the predictive component improved the fit of the model to real data. Rick may be right that the same result can be interpreted differently, but he'd have to prove that the different interpretation was at least as plausible withint the context of the general theory. I think that would be hard

Actually, I think it's quite possible to see that there is no evidence of prediction just based on the data I posted. Here's the subject data for the random and sine targets:

Type of Target Movement (dt)
          Random Sine Wave

Pursuit 6.88 15.8

Comp 3.7 2.1

and here are the results for the "predictive" model:

     Type of Target Movement (dt)
          Random Sine Wave

Pursuit 6.67 15.85

Comp 3.78 2.4

The "predictive" model was only implemented when the target was a sine wave. If the same predictive model had been implemented for the random target (and it would have been very simple to do that since the "model" only involved setting the reference for target position slightly ahead of the present target position in the target disturbance (dt) table) you would have seen a large stability value in the random/pursuit condition. But the non-predictive model behaves exactly like the subject in this condition. This suggests to me that there is nothing for prediction to explain in the random/pursuit condition.

This is interesting because the random target is not completely unpredictable. Because it is low pass filtered noise, the target position is actually fairly predictable. Yet there is no evidence at all that there is any prediction involved in the random target condition. "Prediction" only seems to kick in when the target movement is a repeated temporal pattern, as in the case of the sine wave. I take this as evidence that what is actually going on in the sine wave target case is that the subject is controlling (at the pursuit level) for producing a sinusoidal temporal pattern of cursor movement that is in phase with the sinusoidal target movement. That is, in the sine wave case the target (at the pursuit level) is a temporal pattern (the back and forth sinusoidal movement of the target line); in the random case the target is just the position of the target line since there is no regular temporal configuration to track.

Best

Rick

···

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Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
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From [Marc Abrams (2005.02.14.0110)]

In a message dated 2/13/2005 11:38:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, marken@MINDREADINGS.COM writes:

[From Rick Marken (2005.02.13.2035)]

Actually, I think it’s quite possible to see that there is no evidence
of prediction just based on the data I posted. Here’s the subject data
for the random and sine targets:
Oh well, easy come easy go. There is always hope for tomorrow. :slight_smile:

The “predictive” model was only implemented when the target was a sine
wave. If the same predictive model had been implemented for the random
target (and it would have been very simple to do that since the “model”
only involved setting the reference for target position slightly ahead
of the present target position in the target disturbance (dt) table)
you would have seen a large stability value in the random/pursuit
condition. But the non-predictive model behaves exactly like the
subject in this condition. This suggests to me that there is nothing
for prediction to explain in the random/pursuit condition.
This sure sounds like a ‘test’ on a human for prediction. No wonder Rick thinks he’s ‘testing’ the merits of PCT all the time.

regards,

Marc

[From Bill Powers (2005.02.13.1100 MST)]

Martin Taylor 2005.02.13.18:00]

The reference in a pursuit tracking task is the magnitude (e.g. position) of the target. Call that R(t). With prediction it is R(t) + k R'(t), in other words, it is a place where the target will be some time (determined by k) in the future if the target doesn't change its velocity. If the time it takes the error to affect the cursor is the same, and the target doesn't change its velocity, the effect is the same as it would be with a control system that had no lag.

Yes, I understand this. What I have difficulty seeing is the basis on which the system can adjust k. In order to do that, it must be able to perceive when the cursor position is matching the actual target position as well as possible. However, in the model you propose, the cursor position is being compared with the advanced target position. Where in this model is the actual cursor-target error available, to serve as the basis for adjusting k?

It seems clear that there must be one level of control that works as we presently model it for unpredictable disturbances. In that model, the perceptual signals for both cursor and target are delayed (the best-fit delay is about 8 frames at 60 frames per second, or 133 milliseconds, for moderate to high difficulty, for me). In this model it is possible for the system to tell when the match is accurate, because it is the cursor-target separation that is perceived, and that is unaffected by an equal delay of both components..

The question is, what has to be added to this model to make it control better when the target motion is predictable? This, of course, assumes that in fact people do control better when the target motion is predictable, and not just when it is slower. We have to demonstrate that the best model for the random target movement case does not also improve its performance for a sine-wave target movement.

Rick says that he adjusted the sine-wave frequency so as to be near the middle of the assumed frequency range of the smoothed random disturbance. If that is so, there should be more error in the random case than the sine-wave case simply because of the higher-frequency components in the random case, which would increase the tracking error. It is not a simple matter to show that any improvement in the sine-wave case is due to prediction. What needs to be done is to fit a model to the random case, and then change the target movement to a sine-wave and adjust the frequency until the tracking error is the same as in the random case with the same model parameters in effect. There will always be a frequency at which this is true, for any model. Then the human performance can be compared using the same random target movements and the sine-wave movements at the frequency just determined. This will eliminate improvements in tracking due only to the frequency spectra involved. If there is then an improvement in human tracking with the sine-wave, we can conclude that the regularity is allowing better control, and modify the model to do the same thing. If there is no improvement, we can explain the apparent difference in performance in a simple way that does not use prediction.

I do not believe this has ever been done. The tracking literature is ambivalent on this subject; some say that regularities make tracking better, some do not. The reason may well be due to the choice of frequency for the sine-wave disturbances.

There is also an ambiguity relating to pursuit versus compensatory tracking. One can't do many pursuit tracking runs without noticing that the eyes tend strongly to track the target. If they did this perfectly, and in the pursuit mode rather than in saccades (as appears to be the case), then there would be no perceptual difference in the two cases. On the retina, the target would remain centered while the cursor moved up and down relative to it, whether the target were stationary or moving. That would rather alter the expected performance of a model that depends on measuring the rate of change of target position.

Best,

Bill P.