Prejudice; group-based inference

[From Bruce Abbott (971123.0855 EST)]

Phil Runkel on 22 Nov 97:

Thanks, Bruce, for the reply. I can only say that I find no comfort in
the notion of generalization as it is used by the devotees of casting
nets. I see no advantage in saying that some condition or effect is
general over 100 people when you have observed it to occur in only 55 of
them. Or 35 of them.

I agree. Does this surprise you? Then you have missed my point.

And WTP and I were only saying that when you see that 55 of 100 do
something, and then report that "They are all like that," or "They all
tend to be like that," then you are using exactly the same logic as when
you say, "They all like watermelon."

I agree again. Such statements are terrible. My point was not that such
statements are defensible. My point was that when doing research to
identify variables that have strong influences on individual behavior, the
finding that 55 of 100 show an effect, or even 35, is worth noting and
following up on.

A few years ago I assisted in a study that involved injecting an extremely
tiny amount of a drug directly into the main ventricle of a chick's brain.
The object was to assess the effect of the drug on isolation-induced
distress vocalization (DV), an index of what is termed "separation anxiety."
The chicks were administered their injection and then placed in a small (1
ft square) illuminated box, where their DVs were counted over a 5-min
observation period. To determine the dose response, different groups of
chicks received different doses, including 0 micrograms (drug vehicle only).

The average number of DVs observed varied in a highly systematic way with
the dose, but there was an occasional exception within some drug groups (an
animal whose DVs were in the same range as untreated animals). Dye tests of
the injection technique revealed that these exceptions were probably due to
the tip of the needle sometimes failing to enter the ventricle on rare
occasion, so that the drug was unable to diffuse rapidly to the target
structures in the brain. A highly reasonable inference is that the
exceptions seen in testing were probably examples of this error. But even
if they represented exceptions to the general effect of the drug, the study
revealed that the drug has a powerful effect on distress vocalizations in
(most) chicks.

Nor does it matter much how the group-based effect appeared, i.e., whether,
in each chick, there was a dose-dependent graded effect or whether the
effect of the drug was all-or-none with thresholds varying across chicks.
This was a preliminary screening to determine whether any effect could be
discerned. Once an effect was detected, the details could be determined
using other designs (including examining the effect in single subjects.)

My point was and is that such designs can reveal effects that are consistent
enough across individuals to produce reliable group differences, not that
the trends revealed by group means will necessarily apply to every (or even
any) individual. Marken's spreadsheet demos (both simulations) showed that
this assertion is correct, although he perversely continues to proclaim that
they disprove it.

If anyone would care to look back on my original post that started this
whole discussion, he or she would see that I made only modest claims for
what can be learned from such designs. My only concern was that, in
pointing out how results of studies using such designs have been misused
(e.g., claiming that the results apply to every individual), the strong
impression was being left that such designs have no valid uses at all. One
should not conclude that, just because a finding was obtained with a group
design, it has no validity at all. This claim is not defensible.

Regards,

Bruce

[From Bruce Gregory (971123.0925 EST)]

Bruce Abbott (971123.0855 EST)

If anyone would care to look back on my original post that started this
whole discussion, he or she would see that I made only modest claims for
what can be learned from such designs. My only concern was that, in
pointing out how results of studies using such designs have been misused
(e.g., claiming that the results apply to every individual), the strong
impression was being left that such designs have no valid uses at all. One
should not conclude that, just because a finding was obtained with a group
design, it has no validity at all. This claim is not defensible.

No one seems to be trying to defend it.

Bruce

[From Bruce Abbott (971123.1100 EST)]

Bruce Gregory (971123.0925 EST)]

Bruce Abbott (971123.0855 EST)

If anyone would care to look back on my original post that started this
whole discussion, he or she would see that I made only modest claims for
what can be learned from such designs. My only concern was that, in
pointing out how results of studies using such designs have been misused
(e.g., claiming that the results apply to every individual), the strong
impression was being left that such designs have no valid uses at all. One
should not conclude that, just because a finding was obtained with a group
design, it has no validity at all. This claim is not defensible.

No one seems to be trying to defend it.

Oh. My mistake. I could have _sworn_ . . . . .

Regards,

Bruce

[From Bill Powers (971123.1716 MST)]

Bruce Abbott (971123.0855 EST)--

My point was that when doing research to
identify variables that have strong influences on individual behavior, the
finding that 55 of 100 show an effect, or even 35, is worth noting and
following up on.

Sure. And the follow-up is to do individual studies, isn't it?

A few years ago I assisted in a study that involved injecting an extremely
tiny amount of a drug directly into the main ventricle of a chick's brain.
The object was to assess the effect of the drug on isolation-induced
distress vocalization (DV), an index of what is termed "separation anxiety."
The chicks were administered their injection and then placed in a small (1
ft square) illuminated box, where their DVs were counted over a 5-min
observation period. To determine the dose response, different groups of
chicks received different doses, including 0 micrograms (drug vehicle only).

How many ways are there for a drug to affect "isolation-induced distress
vocalization"?

1. The drug might decrease a chick's ability to perceive that it is isolated.

2. It might increase the chick's reference level for being isolated.

3. It might paralyze the comparator so that even though isolation is
perceived and the reference level for isolation is zero, no error signal is
generated.

4. It might interfere with the connection from the error signal to the
reference inputs of lower systems that control for the sounds and efforts
of self-produced distress vocalizations, although no other kinds of
vocalizations.

5. It might depress the action of the vocalization comparator so that the
reference signal produces no error signal even when no distress
vocalization is occurring.

6. It might stimulate the perceptual function of the vocalization system so
that distress vocalization is perceived even though none is actually
occurring.

7. It might interfere with the output function of the distress vocalization
system so that no vocalization occurs even though an error signal is produced.

... and so on down the levels to the muscles that produce vocalization.

Of course we could go up levels, too: the drug might provide an artificial
input to a higher-level system so it perceives no error whether the chick
is isolated or not. It might counteract the feelings of distress directly
-- and so on.

Under each of these possible explanations, of course, administering the
drug would reduce stress-induced vocalization. It is then possible, of
course, that in a given chick, the drug has one or more of these effects,
and in another chick, a different subset of them.

This was a preliminary screening to determine whether any effect could be
discerned. Once an effect was detected, the details could be determined
using other designs (including examining the effect in single subjects.)

Fine. As you can see, if the drug did have an effect there is a rather
large number of hypotheses that would have to be tested and ruled out for
each chick. Each one would involve working out a test for the controlled
variable as well as devising model-based methods for determining which part
of the individual control system was being affected. About the only result
of the original experiment that would not lead into an enormous research
project would be to find that the drug had no effect.

My point was and is that such designs can reveal effects that are consistent
enough across individuals to produce reliable group differences, not that
the trends revealed by group means will necessarily apply to every (or even
any) individual. Marken's spreadsheet demos (both simulations) showed that
this assertion is correct, although he perversely continues to proclaim that
they disprove it.

If the group differences are due to differences in the effects on
individuals, then that is the case. I would never argue that a mass effect
cannot be produced by individuals all being similarly affected. But you
can't use that reasoning backward: if there is a mass effect, this does not
mean that individuals are being similarly or even consistently affected. In
other words, this syllogism does not hold:

Affecting all individuals similarly causes a population effect.

There is a population effect.

Therefore all individuals must have been affected similarly.

Isn't this the reasoning you're using?

Best,

Bill P.

···

If anyone would care to look back on my original post that started this
whole discussion, he or she would see that I made only modest claims for
what can be learned from such designs. My only concern was that, in
pointing out how results of studies using such designs have been misused
(e.g., claiming that the results apply to every individual), the strong
impression was being left that such designs have no valid uses at all. One
should not conclude that, just because a finding was obtained with a group
design, it has no validity at all. This claim is not defensible.

Regards,

Bruce