Proposed Research

From [Marc Abrams (2003.03.02.1852)]

First, I’d like to thank David Wolsk, Bill, Rick, Bruce Gregory, Fred Nichols, Peter Burke, & Shawn Thomas for their interest, encouragement and input. It’s always welcome.

The original questions I had, and wanted an answer to was; Why do we control what we do, when we do? In other words, how are our CV’s prioritized and secondly, how does Reorganization work? The two didn’t seem like corollaries at the time but I have since learned otherwise (i.e. Inversely at least ). Or at least I think so :-).

A few months ago while studying some material on Stress and Anxiety for my own personal use, I stumbled across Selye’s work on, The General Adaptation Syndrome (GAS), and Cannon’s Fight or Flight Response (FoFR).
Both theories are based on linear causality.

My hypothesis:
The more I thought about it the more I realized that they were describing the behavior of control possesses over a period of time, and that “stress”, as defined and described by both Selye and Cannon was a form of “anxiety”, which in turn, is linked to the error in a control loop. Hence, Anxiety = Error, Error = Anxiety. Either
one of those = Stress. Simple enough. :slight_smile: Measure the “anxiety” you can measure the error and stress. ( Not really, but you can measure some kind of response to error ). So I have basically come up with the hypothesis that CV’s are prioritized by the level of anxiety or error is present in the control loop. Pass a certain threshold and Reorganization kicks in. There is never any reason for positive feedback to occur when the goal of a loop is to either to stop (die) or slow down.

Given the above the following should be true. The TEST becomes finding out what people happen to be anxious about. Whatever they are anxious about, they are in fact controlling WITH PERSISTING ERROR and
whatever they are controlling WITH PERSISTING ERROR they are anxious about. A better word then anxious might be excited. Because it should not matter whether they are happy or sad. Error is all the same. (Or is it? :-)) This is testable.

I believe that the testability of the hypothesis and/or the use of theTEST is significant. Much research is based ( and being done ) upon the GAS and FOFR models, both in Physiology and Psychology and is used as the basis for treating Psychological stress and anxiety. This might prove to be a way of bringing more people into PCT research.

When I say testable, I mean that an experiment can be designed. Data collected, and ultimately Modeled ( Simulated ). That is my goal.

I have both a Heart Rate Variability Meter (HRVM) and a Galvanic Skin Response Device (GSR) both can export the data into a computer. Bill has kindly volunteered to build a data collection table that can be used to build a Vensim model. I have some idea’s on the kinds of experiments I will try to do ( using myself as prime guinea pig :slight_smile: and expanding slowly as I meet with either success or failure along the way. If anyone is interested in keeping track I would be happy to have an ongoing off-line thread. I will report to CSGnet from time to time with progress and results. Just e-mail me privately @ mabrams@nvbb.net and I will put you on my mail list.

Marc

[From Bill Powers (2003.03.04.0332 MST)]

Marc Abrams (2003.03.02.1852)--

I have found the source code (in Delphi) for the program I wrote for David
Goldstein, and will work up some instructions for how to use it with Vensim
to do an analysis of control parameters. If I could figure out how to do
the "Powell Optimization" algorithm, Vensim wouldn't be needed, but it will
be useful to show modeling methods as well as to perform the analysis.

The hypothesis we will be testing immediately is that stress leads to
reorganization which is detectable as _dis_organization of a previously
skilled performance. Tracking experiments, or any other experiment
involving control of a visual variable using a mouse, are handy because we
can use a computer to measure the performance accurately and rapidly. All
we really need is a running measure of root-mean-square tracking error,
isn't it?

I had originally thought of using level of difficulty in the tracking task
to govern the amount of error, but that would leave no way of measuring
skill independently. I think now that the tracking task should be used
simply as a measure of skilled performance, at a constant (fairly high)
level of difficulty set by the rapidity with which disturbances vary. This
implies finding some _other_ way of creating errors in control systems
other than those used in the tracking task. The article that was discussed
a few days ago used five methods of inducing stress, including pain -- you
might not like using that one on yourself! Sitting with one foot in cold
but not freezing water might serve instead. Check with your MD, of course,
and your heart specialist before you start stressing yourself.

These are all just preliminary thoughts.

The mention of neurotransmitters a few days ago brought to mind some
half-baked thoughts that I think we need to consider now and then. I have
no conclusions to offer yet, just some things to consider.

The basic question is, what is a chemical signal and what is a structurally
important building block of the body? An example of a structurally
important building block is calcium, a constituent of bone for which there
is no substitute. It is the physical and chemical nature of calcium which
makes it important as a component of load-bearing bones. In contrast,
consider the role of calcium in the functioning of neurons. Calcium
channels open and close, and calcium ions move into and out of the
nerve-cell as it fires and recovers. But the fact that calcium is involved
is unimportant, because what matters about nerve cells are the signals they
send from one place to another, and the way the signals interact in the
cell body. If a neuron were replaced by a suitable transistor circuit, so
that incoming neural signals were transformed into outgoing signals in
exactly the same way as before, there would be no difference in functioning
of the nervous system. Would there?

I'm not sure if the "substitution" idea is adequate for this argument --
bones could be replaced by steel rods, I suppose (of course steel rods
could not recover from a break). The idea I'm trying to get at is the
difference between a component of the body that plays a role in the gross
physical structure of the body, and a component that serves only to carry
information about a physical variable from one place to another. In the
latter case, the properties of the signal itself have no bearing on the
information that is carried, just as transistors work just as well whether
their charge carriers are negative electrons or positive holes.

In the nervous system, signals pass from sensors or computing networks to
other locations, where they present the information that such-and-such a
distant variable has such-and-such a value. The signals are prevented from
reaching the wrong destinations by the fact that they are carried in
discrete, and usually insulated, fibers. They can't go anywhere else.

At the destinations, however, the signals have to jump a gap, a synapse,
and the information that the signal (and the distant variable) has a
certain value is carried by neurotransmitters. While the transmitters are
in the gap they can leak out, even though the gap is extremely small, and
this can constitute a problem in the brain where neurons are densely
packed. If all synapses used the same neurotransmitter to carry the signal
from the incoming fiber into the cell body, the leakage could very well
have the effect of sending a copy of the signal to the wrong cell bodies as
well as the right one. The evolutionary solution to this problem is to use
different neurotransmitters which are recognized only by the correct cell
bodies.

What I'm working up to here is the proposition that the _chemical type_ of
neurotransmitter employed in different volumes of the brain has no
functional significance other than the fact that receptors exist which
respond exclusively to just one type, so that signals in adjacent volumes
do not interfere with each other. The system would work just the same if
the types of neurotransmitters were somehow interchanged.

If this proposition is true, then it is futile to ask what there is about
different neurotransmitters _as chemicals_ that produces various conditions
such as schizophrenia. It is not the chemistry of the neurotransmitter that
is the problem; the problem likes in the reasons for the lack or excess of
that transmitter, which trace back to a lack or excess of activity in the
neurons that produce that type of transmitter. In other words, the parts of
the brain where the signals originate are creating the problem, or at least
passing along the effects of the real cause. That would be what I call a
functional problem, a problem in how the brain thinks, rather than a
structural problem.

It's possible, of course, that there can be genetic defects that alter
brain chemistry in a global way that can't be corrected, as it were, by
right thinking. But from what reading I do in this field (Nature and
Science, primarily), the evidence is not yet nearly good enough to
distinguish most structural defects from functional ones. The tendency in
medicine is to assume that all brain problems are structural and therefore
should be treated by manipulating chemistry, but that conclusion is
unjustifiable; it is simply a predudice. It leads to looking at local
chemistry changes without asking whether the incoming signals have changed
because of some problem in a totally different region of the brain -- or
even in the external world. Depression can certainly be linked to changes
in neurotransmitter concentrations, but I'm sure that in come cases such
changes are easily be traced to changes in external circumstances, such as
the death of a loved one and a subsequent need for some drastic functional
reorganizations.

It would be astonishing to me to find that any change in mental
organization was not accomnpanied by significant chemical changes in the
brain. But we must be wary of about jumping to conclusions about cause and
effect. At one time in my life I could be plunged into gloom by the sight
of a few numbers in my newspaper's listings of stock prices. I'm quite
prepared to believe that a lot of neurotransmitters changed their
concentrations as a result. But I'm equally sure that taking Prozac to make
me feel better would not have done anything about the basic problem, which
would have been just as needful of a solution when the Prozac was
withdrawn. The only possible excuse for taking Prozac in that situation
would be that I was incapacitated by the overwhelming size of the error
signals and needed a temporary crutch even to start thinking about a
solution. I will admit that much, grudgingly.

So, anyway, that is the status of my thinking on that subject -- still
inconclusive, but the basic problems seem real.

Best,

Bill P.

from [Marc Abrams (2003.03.03.0800)]

[From Bill Powers (2003.03.04.0332 MST)]

I have found the source code (in Delphi) for the program I wrote for David
Goldstein, and will work up some instructions for how to use it with

Vensim

to do an analysis of control parameters. If I could figure out how to do
the "Powell Optimization" algorithm, Vensim wouldn't be needed, but it

will

be useful to show modeling methods as well as to perform the analysis.

Great, Looking forward to getting it.

The hypothesis we will be testing immediately is that stress leads to
reorganization which is detectable as _dis_organization of a previously
skilled performance.

Why couldn't I have put it that way. :slight_smile:

This
implies finding some _other_ way of creating errors in control systems
other than those used in the tracking task. The article that was discussed
a few days ago used five methods of inducing stress, including pain -- you
might not like using that one on yourself! Sitting with one foot in cold
but not freezing water might serve instead. Check with your MD, of course,
and your heart specialist before you start stressing yourself.

I think I might prefer the Psychological approach (thinking) rather then the
Physiological approach (pain) LOL. Wasn't "thinking" experiments the
purpose of getting those measuring devices? (GSR and HRVM), or are these to
be used in junction with some kind of tracking task? It's difficult to
operate a mouse with either devices. They both go on fingers and are
sensititive to arm movement and breathing patterns.

Marc

[From Bruce Nevin (2003.03.04 15:49 EST]

Bill Powers (2003.03.04.0332 MST)--

The hypothesis we will be testing immediately is that stress leads to
reorganization which is detectable as _dis_organization of a previously
skilled performance.

An alternative hypothesis that you must distinguish somehow is that a degradation of performance is due to distraction. How do you know that the freezing foot or whatever is not simply distracting the subject from attending fully to the task?

While the transmitters are
in the gap they can leak out, even though the gap is extremely small, and
this can constitute a problem in the brain where neurons are densely
packed. If all synapses used the same neurotransmitter to carry the signal
from the incoming fiber into the cell body, the leakage could very well
have the effect of sending a copy of the signal to the wrong cell bodies as
well as the right one. The evolutionary solution to this problem is to use
different neurotransmitters which are recognized only by the correct cell
bodies.

What I'm working up to here is the proposition that the _chemical type_ of
neurotransmitter employed in different volumes of the brain has no
functional significance other than the fact that receptors exist which
respond exclusively to just one type, so that signals in adjacent volumes
do not interfere with each other. The system would work just the same if
the types of neurotransmitters were somehow interchanged.

There is an unheralded step here from specific cell bodies to 'volumes of the brain'. I don't follow because I suppose (wrongly?) that a brain volume encompasses many cell bodies. On that assumption, if each adjacent cell body in a given volume of the brain uses its unique neurotransmitter, your hypothesis follows. But if the cell bodies within a given brain volume all use the same neurotransmitter in common, all this does is distinguish one volume from another, limiting the potential confusion of signals to somehow 'related' cell bodies.

I wonder too, in my ignorance, about the boundaries between brain volumes. If a function of the folds of the brain is to separate brain volumes - a wild guess - then there is even less need for chemical differentiation between volumes.

         /Bruce

···

At 07:06 AM 3/4/2003, Bill Powers wrote:

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0304.2125)]

Bruce Nevin (2003.03.04 15:49 EST

Bill Powers (2003.03.04.0332 MST)--

The hypothesis we will be testing immediately is that stress leads to
reorganization which is detectable as _dis_organization of a previously
skilled performance.

An alternative hypothesis that you must distinguish somehow is that a
degradation of performance is due to distraction. How do you know that the
freezing foot or whatever is not simply distracting the subject from
attending fully to the task?

What is a distraction? It seems to me that it might be a reaction to an
error in a loop controlling a variable other than the variable of interest.

···

At 07:06 AM 3/4/2003, Bill Powers wrote:

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

from [Marc Abrams (2003.03.03.2149)]

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0304.2125)]

Bruce Nevin (2003.03.04 15:49 EST

> An alternative hypothesis that you must distinguish somehow is that a
> degradation of performance is due to distraction. How do you know that

the

> freezing foot or whatever is not simply distracting the subject from
> attending fully to the task?

What is a distraction? It seems to me that it might be a reaction to an
error in a loop controlling a variable other than the variable of

interest.

How about; :slight_smile: A distraction is nothing more then a change to a different CV
due to some arousal.

Marc

[From Bruce Nevin (2003.03.04 22:11 EST)]

Bruce Gregory (2003.0304.2125)--

Bruce Nevin (2003.03.04 15:49 EST

Bill Powers (2003.03.04.0332 MST)--

The hypothesis we will be testing immediately is that stress leads to
reorganization which is detectable as _dis_organization of a previously
skilled performance.

An alternative hypothesis that you must distinguish somehow is that a
degradation of performance is due to distraction. How do you know that the
freezing foot or whatever is not simply distracting the subject from
attending fully to the task?

What is a distraction? It seems to me that it might be a reaction to an
error in a loop controlling a variable other than the variable of interest.

In this case, yes. Another form of distraction is control without error that demands attention (lest there be error). This can be control with high gain, or could be control that engages some of the means of control (eyesight, hands, left foot, whatever) so that they are not available as means for controlling the variable from which you are distracted.

The notion of distraction is related to attention. It might be useful to think about how ignoring is done. Some control requires concentration. You concentrate by ignoring everything else. A distraction is something you are unable to ignore. That encompasses both types noted above.

         /Bruce

···

At 09:27 PM 3/4/2003, Bruce Gregory wrote:

At 07:06 AM 3/4/2003, Bill Powers wrote:

[From Bill Powers(2003.03.04.1963 MST)]

Bruce Nevin (2003.03.04 15:49 EST]

Bill Powers (2003.03.04.0332 MST)--

The hypothesis we will be testing immediately is that stress leads to
reorganization which is detectable as _dis_organization of a previously
skilled performance.

An alternative hypothesis that you must distinguish somehow is that a
degradation of performance is due to distraction. How do you know that the
freezing foot or whatever is not simply distracting the subject from
attending fully to the task?

Yes, that is a possibility, but I think the first order of business is to
find out whether any disorganization effect is seen. If it's not, we don't
need any alternative hypotheses to explain the effect. If it is seen, then
we have to consider alternative explanations. It should be fairly easy to
think of non-stressful distractions, although one could claim that merely
doing worse might be stressful. We would also, therefore, have to check
whether the person realized that there was a decrement in performance (if
there was).

>There is an unheralded step here from specific cell bodies to 'volumes of

the brain'. I don't follow because I suppose (wrongly?) that a brain volume
encompasses many cell bodies.

I should have said explicitly that I was thinking of volumes in which many
cell bodies accomplished similar functions or contribute to one complex
computation. My guess was that crosstalk would be less disruptive than if
the cells were carrying out very different functions. It's possible that in
small volumes of the brain, groups of cells are engaged in doing complex
computations, so that leakages of signals would simply alter the weightings
that, during learning, are being adjusted anyway. But this would not apply
across _different_ computing functions which are supposed to operate
independently. It's hard to say anything very convincing at this level of
generality, I admit.

>I wonder too, in my ignorance, about the boundaries between brain volumes.

If a function of the folds of the brain is to separate brain volumes - a
wild guess - then there is even less need for chemical differentiation
between volumes.

I really don't know the answer to that question. It's a factual question,
and the only real answer lies in observation. I'm mainly casting about for
alternatives to the idea that chemicals in the brain can have specific
effects at the level of complex behavior, just because of their chemical
properties. That's too much of a stretch for my imagination.

Best,

Bill P.

···

At 07:06 AM 3/4/2003, Bill Powers wrote:

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0305.0559)]

Bruce Nevin (2003.03.04 22:11 EST)

The notion of distraction is related to attention. It might be useful to
think about how ignoring is done. Some control requires concentration. You
concentrate by ignoring everything else. A distraction is something you are
unable to ignore. That encompasses both types noted above.

Inhibition probably plays a central role in ignoring. The question then,
is what overrules inhibition?

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

[From Bill Powers (2003.03.05.0806 MST)]

Bruce Gregory (2003.0305.0559)--

>Inhibition probably plays a central role in ignoring. The question then,
>is what overrules inhibition?

... and then what countermands the overruling to let the inhibition act
again,etc. etc. etc.

I'm all in favor of research on attention, but couldn't we do it in terms
of PCT? What theory is the idea of inhibition from? Are you offering it as
an alternative to PCT models? I repeat what I said in the previous post: if
you're really that tired of PCT, why not just say so? I can take a hint.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0305.1250)]

Bill Powers (2003.03.05.0806 MST)

>
> Bruce Gregory (2003.0305.0559)--
>
> >Inhibition probably plays a central role in ignoring. The question
then,
> >is what overrules inhibition?
>
> ... and then what countermands the overruling to let the inhibition act
> again,etc. etc. etc.
>
> I'm all in favor of research on attention, but couldn't we do it in terms
> of PCT? What theory is the idea of inhibition from? Are you offering
it as
> an alternative to PCT models? I repeat what I said in the previous
post: if
> you're really that tired of PCT, why not just say so? I can take a hint.

Inhibition is the process in which higher level control systems lower
the gains on control loops lower in the hierarchy. As I understand
Marc's use of the term arousal, it refers to a physiological response to
the existence of large or persisting error. It make be related to
increasing the gain on certain control loops. I'm certainly not tired of
PCT and I have no reason to believe that others on this list are.