public health

[Martin Taylor 2007.07.16.16.14]

Cuba's and the U.S. Veterans' Administration's programs are fully socialized, as is the health plan enjoyed by all of our Congress critturs. In other words, all the personnel are government employees, as opposed to being contractors who bill the government for their services which is the way a single payer program such as Medicare and Medicaid and the Canadian system works.

These are the best programs in the world by any standard.

Where do you get your information on the Cuban medical system? You know, given that the country is a jail and owning a computer is a crime there. Do you think that Michael Moore saw anything but what the Cuban regime decided he would see, and that he wasn't happy to be their useful idiot?

Since I was the one who mentioned Cuba first, I guess I should answer.

I really wouldn't believe anti-Cuban propaganda any more than I would believe Cuban propaganda, nor would I expect any scientist to do so.

I got the data from the CIA World Factbook, the well known Cuban propaganda agency; it was the same source I used for all the other countries, and I wasn't really trying to do more than look to see whether Hertzman's result for US states and Canadian provinces would hold up over international data. The excellence of the Cuban system, given their per capita income and income distribution, was something that simply fell out as an extreme outlying data point. As were the extremely poor results for the ex-Soviet republics of Central Asia.

I like Daniel Moynihan's aphorism, quoted in today's Toronto Globe and Mail: "One is entitled to choose one's opinions, but not one's facts." Either I boobed in my 2004 analysis (which I lost in the process of refining it, as I mentioned initially), or it's a fact that Cuba has an excellent way of managing health care. (Other reporters than Michael Moore have reported this to be true, by the way; I guess they are all dupes, since it necessarily cannot be true that something is well done in a dictatorship).

Martin

···

At 09:25 -0700 16/7/07, Frank T Cloak Jr wrote:

Please recall that Walter Reed is run by the Department of the Army, not the VA.

The VA got rave reviews in a medical care survey in US News & World Report a couple of years ago, and just last month in the AARP bulletin. The latter article stated that a man enrolled in the VA system has a 40% lower chance of dying than the same guy who signs his Medicare over to a private HMO.

On a personal note, I use the VA and the UNM Hospital system for my health care - both tops, and both completely social.

Regards,

Ted

Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:56:36 -0500

···

Bryan Thalhammer <bryanth@SOLTEC.NET> wrote:

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2007.07.16.1155 CDT)]

Kenny,

Your point about the VA and the way it has been managed since the 80s? After the
Vietnam War, vets who had severe mental distress were turned out on the streets
by Ronny Raygun. Agent Orange was denied by the Reagan admin, and vets had to
fight back to get medical coverage. Then in the Gulf War, another WMD used by
the US was harming Gulf War vets and their families. Senator Webb has pointed
out in abundance that Iraq Vets are not being cared for since the VA has been
cut to ribbons by THIS Bush Admin. During the Republican Congress since 1992,
they have virtually ignored the VA.

This is blaming the victim. Design a good system, fund it appropriately, use it
appropriately, and let it be managed and evaluated by people who are qualified
(not Republican political appointees!)...

--Bry

In a message dated 7/16/2007 12:26:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
tcloak@UNM.EDU writes:

Cuba's and the U.S. Veterans' Administration's programs
are fully socialized, as is the health plan enjoyed by all
of our Congress critturs. In other words, all the
personnel are government employees, as opposed to being
contractors who bill the government for their services
which is the way a single payer program such as Medicare
and Medicaid and the Canadian system works.

These are the best programs in the world by any standard.

Ted

Are you not aware of the Vet. Adm. health care scandal earlier this year?

Kenny

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at
Improve & Protect your PC, Devices and Life with AOL Products | AOL

Try to see "!Salud!" - Ted

···

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:44:36 -0400 Martin Taylor <mmt-csg@ROGERS.COM> wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2007.07.16.16.14]

At 09:25 -0700 16/7/07, Frank T Cloak Jr wrote:

Cuba's and the U.S. Veterans' Administration's programs are fully socialized, as is the health plan enjoyed by all of our Congress critturs. In other words, all the personnel are government employees, as opposed to being contractors who bill the government for their services which is the way a single payer program such as Medicare and Medicaid and the Canadian system works.

These are the best programs in the world by any standard.

Where do you get your information on the Cuban medical system? You know, given that the country is a jail and owning a computer is a crime there. Do you think that Michael Moore saw anything but what the Cuban regime decided he would see, and that he wasn't happy to be their useful idiot?

Since I was the one who mentioned Cuba first, I guess I should answer.

I really wouldn't believe anti-Cuban propaganda any more than I would believe Cuban propaganda, nor would I expect any scientist to do so.

I got the data from the CIA World Factbook, the well known Cuban propaganda agency; it was the same source I used for all the other countries, and I wasn't really trying to do more than look to see whether Hertzman's result for US states and Canadian provinces would hold up over international data. The excellence of the Cuban system, given their per capita income and income distribution, was something that simply fell out as an extreme outlying data point. As were the extremely poor results for the ex-Soviet republics of Central Asia.

I like Daniel Moynihan's aphorism, quoted in today's Toronto Globe and Mail: "One is entitled to choose one's opinions, but not one's facts." Either I boobed in my 2004 analysis (which I lost in the process of refining it, as I mentioned initially), or it's a fact that Cuba has an excellent way of managing health care. (Other reporters than Michael Moore have reported this to be true, by the way; I guess they are all dupes, since it necessarily cannot be true that something is well done in a dictatorship).

Martin

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2007.07.16.1445 CDT)]

Kenny,

Your comment below is somewhat vague, just as the other exit line you gave us.

[Kenny Kitzke (2007.07.16)]

... BTW wasn't the top VA man
who resigned in disgrace appointed by President Clinton?

So which qualified African-American did you mean? Or were you referring to one
of the two UNQUALIFIED POLITICAL HACKS appointed by Dumbya?

1. Edward Joseph Derwinski was the first United States Secretary of Veterans
Affairs, serving under President George H.W. Bush from March 15, 1989 to
September 26, 1992. He served in the United States Army in the Pacific Theater
during World War II and in the postwar U.S. occupation of Japan. He is a
celebrated member of Alpha Delta Gamma Fraternity. In 1957 he was elected to the
Illinois House of Representatives where he served one term before winning
election to the United States House of Representatives in 1959. He would serve
11 terms as a Republican representative from the 4th District of Illinois, part
of Chicago, eventually becoming ranking member of the House Foreign Relations
Committee. He also served as a delegate to the United Nations General Assembly
1971-1972 and as chairman of the U.S. delegation to the Interparliamentary Union
from 1970-1972 and 1978-1980. After losing his 1982 reelection bid, President
Ronald Reagan appointed him Counselor to the U.S. State Department. In 1987,
Reagan appointed him Under Secretary of State for Security Assistance, Science
and Technology, where he served until the end of Reagan's term, shortly after
which he was selected to head the VA. A Polish-American, he was noted for his
efforts on behalf of Eastern Europe, and for focusing public attention on the
Serbian anti-Axis general Dra�a Mihailovi&#263;. He served as head of "Ethnic
Americans for Dole/Kemp" during the 1996 U.S. presidential election. (See #4
below, where Anthony Joseph Principi served as acting VA Secretary, but was
forced to abandon that office when GHW Bush was not re-elected to office).
POLITICAL HACK.

2. Jesse Brown was United States Secretary of Veterans Affairs, appointed in
1993 by Bill Clinton, serving to 1997. He enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps in
1963, and served as a Marine in the Vietnam War, where he was seriously injured
in 1965 near Da Nang. After leaving the Marines, he joined the Disabled American
Veterans, a service and advocacy organization. Brown was its first
African-American director and served from 1989 until 1993. As the Secretary of
Veterans Affairs in the Clinton administration, Brown expanded the services
offered to female veterans, homeless veterans and veterans who were ill due to
chemical exposures in Vietnam or the Gulf War. Brown died in Warrenton,
Virginia, in 2002. AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND MORE QUALIFIED THAN 1, 4, OR 5.

3. Togo Dennis West, an African American attorney and public official, After
completing law school and clerking for a federal judge, West entered the United
States Army and served in the Judge Advocate General's Corps. From his military
service, he earned the Legion of Merit and the Meritorious Service Medal. He was
the United States Secretary of the Army, 1993 � 1997 and was the third person to
occupy the post of United States Secretary of Veterans Affairs, serving from
1998 to 2000. AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND MORE QUALIFIED THAN 1, 4 OR 5.

4. Anthony Joseph Principi was the 4th United States Secretary of Veterans
Affairs. Prior to his nomination, Mr. Principi was president of QTC Medical
Services, Inc., a group of professional service companies providing independent
medical examinations and administration. Mr. Principi earned his Juris Doctor
degree from Seton Hall in 1975 and was assigned to the United States Navy's
Judge Advocate General Corps in San Diego, California. He was senior vice
president at Lockheed Martin IMS, and a partner in the San Diego, California law
firm of Luce, Forward, Hamilton & Scripps. He was nominated by President George
W. Bush on December 29, 2000, and was confirmed by the Senate on January 23,
2001. Principi submitted his resignation in a letter dated November 16, 2004,
saying he would leave office once his successor was confirmed by the Senate.
POLITICAL HACK.

5. Robert James "Jim" Nicholson (born February 4, 1938[1]) has been the United
States Secretary of Veterans Affairs since January 26, 2005.Before becoming
active in civilian government service, he practiced law in Denver, Colorado,
specializing in real estate, municipal finance and zoning law. In 1978 he
founded Nicholson Enterprises, Inc., a developer of planned residential
communities, and in 1987 he bought Renaissance Homes, which became an
award-winning builder of quality custom homes. Nicholson has never held elected
office, but has long been active in the Republican Party. In January 1986, he
was elected committeeman from Colorado for the Republican National Committee
(RNC). In 1993, he was elected Vice-Chairman of the RNC, and was the "surprise
pick"[2] for GOP national chairman in January 1997. He served in that role
through the 2000 presidential election. Between 2001 and his appointment as
Secretary of Veterans Affairs, he served as United States Ambassador to the Holy
See (the Vatican). Nicholson's department is currently under scrutiny as a
result of revelations pertaining to the Walter Reed Army Medical Center neglect
scandal. POLITICAL HACK.

More data?

--Bryan