Quantum Theory and Control theory

[From Rick Marken (2005.03.27.1640)]

Ely Dorsey (2005.03.27.14:23 EST)

The Copenhagen view is
that reality comes into being only after observation. So the act of
observation is a signal. The question is a signal to what? I am
asking you to view the quantum experiments the way a control theorist
would.

I don't know what the quantum experiment is. But I presume it is like all
experiments: the experimenter acts to manupulate some variable(s) (the
independenet variables) and observers the consequences of this manipulation
on some (usually quantifiable) other variable (s) (the dependent variable).

The idea that reality "comes into being only after observation" seems to me
to make no sense in terms of PCT. The PCT model of behavior (including the
behavior of doing experiments) is that perceptions (observations) are a
function of the physical reality that exists on the other side of our
perceptual input functions.

Where is the Comparator, what are the inputs etc.

The comparator(s) in the PCT model are always in the brain of the behaving
system (the experimenter in this case). The inputs are the physical
variables that cause the perceptual functions (including the sensory
transducers which are the first step in the percpetual process) to generate
neural impulses (the perceptual signals of the PCT model).

Does a quantum experiment seek stability?

I don't think any experimenter seeks stability (in the sense of a certain,
preselected result). I would imagine that a quantum experiment, like any
experiment, should be designed to make sure that any observed consequences
of manipulation of the independent variable(s) are, indeed, a result of
variations in the independent variable(s) and not the possible result of
concomittant variation in other, confounding variables. Once the
manipulation is made, the experimenter should simply watch to see what is
observed. Acting to make the observed result stable would be, it seems to
me, an experimental "no no".

But maybe I am missing something that distinguishes a quantum experiment
from the kind of experiment with which I am familiar. I think it would help
me, as a non-physicist, if you described a quantum experiment in some detail.

Best

Rick

From Ely Dorsey 2005.03.27.EST

Hello Rick,

Thank you for your engagement.
I am forming a response to your post. It centers about theories of
explanation. I will get back to you soon.

[From Rick Marken (2005.03.27.2135)]

Ely Dorsey 2005.03.27.EST

Hello Rick,

Thank you for your engagement.
I am forming a response to your post. It centers about theories of
explanation. I will get back to you soon.

Thanks. Don't forget to include something about the quantum experiment, too.

Best

Rick

[From Bruce Gregory (2005.0328.0711)]

Here is one example of an experiment that demonstrates quantum entanglement. First imagine a single photon heading toward a polarizer. The polarizer is set so that 50% of the time the photon is absorbed and 50% of the time it is transmitted. Chance determines whether a photon is absorbed or transmitted. Now imagine two photons created in what is called a "singlet state". QM tells us that if one of the photons is absorbed, the other will be transmitted by identically oriented polarizers. This is what happens.

Several interpretations are possible. one is that each photon has a switch telling it whether to be absorbed or transmitted. This alternative has been ruled out my a host of experiments. The second alternative is that the photons arrive at the polarizers at slightly different times (as they must according to the Heisenberg relations). The first photon to arrive sends a message to the second photon "I've been absorbed, let yourself be transmitted." Unfortunately experiments show that this message must travel at faster than the speed of light. This is a no-no. Einstein called this a "spooky interaction". The third interpretation is that this result is simply what the equations predict, "one absorbed, one created." The equations say nothing about an mechanism and we have to let it rest here.

Personally, I'm in the third interpretation camp, which is why I argued that we really don't understand Newton's Laws any better than we do QM. The former simply describe the behavior of a world that we are familiar with, the latter do not.

A true believer knows the solution before he understands the problem.

[From Rick Marken (2005.03.28.0800)]

Bruce Gregory (2005.0328.0711)

Here is one example of an experiment that demonstrates quantum
entanglement. First imagine a single photon heading toward a polarizer.
The polarizer is set so that 50% of the time the photon is absorbed and
50% of the time it is transmitted. Chance determines whether a photon
is absorbed or transmitted. Now imagine two photons created in what is
called a "singlet state". QM tells us that if one of the photons is
absorbed, the other will be transmitted by identically oriented
polarizers. This is what happens.

I still don't see what the experiment is. I know what a polarizer is. But
how does one get a single photon to head towards one? How do you determine
that the polarizer is set so that 50% of the time a photon is absorbed and
50% of the time it is transmitted? How does one create two photons in a
"singlet state" and send them heading toward identically oriented polarizers
(which I presume must have been done if they know that, when one of the
photons in a singlet state is absorbed the other will be transmitted by
identically oriented polarizers)? What variables are actually manipulated in
these experiments; I presume orientation of the polarizing filters is one
variable. What about the light source? And what is actually measured/ What
kinds of instruments are used to make the measurements. I guess I want to
know what the person in the white lab coat is observing and writing down in
the lab book.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

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[From Bruce gregory (2005.0328.1107)]

Bryan Thalhammer (2005.03.28.0955)

So, why is quantum theory necessary to understand perceptual control theory?

I admit that I fail to see any connection. We'll just have to wait and see what emerges.

A true believer knows the solution before he understands the problem.

[From Bruce gregory (2005.0328.1120)]

Rick Marken (2005.03.28.0800)

And what is actually measured/ What
kinds of instruments are used to make the measurements. I guess I want to
know what the person in the white lab coat is observing and writing down in
the lab book.

What is actually measured is the counting rate of photon counters and their correlation in time. If you want to go beyond my summary, I'm afraid you'll have to do some serious reading. One such treatment is Roland Omnes _The Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics_ (1994 Princeton University Press). It contains an extensive bibliography with references to the primary literature. Good luck!

A true believer knows the solution before he understands the problem.

[Martin Taylor 2005.03.28.11.30]

(Taking a littel break from real work -- i.e. visit from grandchildren :slight_smile:

Bill mentioned the role of the observer in quantum effects. Rick wanted to know about the kind of experiment.

The article "Quantum Erasure" by Walborn et al., in American Scientist July-August 2003 (v91-4,p336) should be relevant to both enquiries. The experimental situation is the Young's two-slit experiment, in which fringes appear on a screen that is illuminated by light that passes through two closely-spaced slits in a card. The astounding experimental result is that whether fromges appear depends on whether the experimenter could, in principle, observe which slit each particular photon went through. If yes, no fringes. If no, fringes appear.

The other thing to note is that the result is not explicable by the uncertainty principle (which, by the way, puts no limits on the precision with which any single parameter can be measured (or produced). The uncertainty principle affects only the precisions of the joint measurements of two parameters, and even that limitation seems to be getting a little unsure in the presence of entanglement. We shall see what the future brings in that regard.

Here's a few paragraphs from the article. I hope it's not more than copyright laws allow. You can get the whole article on-line at www.americanscientist.org if you are a Sigma Xi member or subscribe to the journal. Otherwise, I expect you could find it in your nearby University library.

----------Am.Sci article--------------

With his "slip of card," Young set off a revolution in physics whose ripples are still being felt today. His experiment is now a staple of freshman physics laboratories, though it is now typically performed with two slits etched into a piece of opaque microfilm. (Thus the name, "Young's double-slit experiment.") The phenomenon he had observed, called interference, can be demonstrated easily enough with waves in a tank of water. Thus, by analogy, Young's experiment seemed to prove that light is made up of waves, as Dutch physicist Christiaan Huygens had advocated. But that was not the end of the story.

...

In 1909, Cambridge physicist Geoffrey Taylor repeated an experiment similar to Young's, which showed that individual photons suffer another interference phenomenon, called diffraction. By dimming the light until only one photon at a time reached the screen, he eliminated any possibility that the photons could interfere with one other. Yet after recording the results of many photons, Taylor found the same pattern of diffraction fringes. Apparently, then, an individual photon could "interfere with itself."

...

Recently, physicists have started to shed some light on this mystery through the demonstration of quantum erasers-in which one can actually choose to turn the interference fringes on or off. Our group has constructed a quantum eraser using a more elaborate version of Young's experiment and used it to demonstrate, in principle, the idea of "delayed choice," in which the experimenter can make the decision after the particle has been detected.

...

The appearance of interference fringes in the classical double-slit experiment is well understood. According to the wave theory of light, when two beams of coherent light with the same wavelength encounter each other, they combine. The most extreme situations are constructive interference, in which the waves reinforce each other, or destructive interference, in which they cancel each other out completely.

...

To understand why quantum interference is unexpected, it may help to draw an analogy to a coin toss. If it is a fair coin, the probability of getting heads is 50 percent and the probability of getting tails is also 50 percent. The probability of getting heads or tails is the sum of the individual probabilities:

     Prob (heads or tails) = Prob (heads) + Prob (tails) = 100 percent

Now consider a quantum "coin toss" based on Young's experiment. We send a beam of light at the double-slit apparatus, and put a photodetector a certain distance away on the other side. To dramatize the paradox, we place it in the middle of a dark interference fringe. Now, we turn down the light so that only one photon at a time passes through the slits. First we cover up slit 2, and we find, say, that 5 percent of the photons pass through slit 1 and trigger the detector. So Prob (slit 1) = 5 percent. Next we block slit 1 and find that 5 percent of the photons pass through slit 2 and trigger the detector: Prob (slit 2) = 5 percent. Now when we uncover both slits, creating two possible routes, we would expect to detect 10 percent of the photons. But no! Because we placed the detector in a dark fringe, we can run the experiment for hours and not see a single photon. That is,

     Prob (1 or 2) = 0 percent � Prob (1) + Prob (2)

The mind-bending explanation that quantum physicists have found for this behavior is the principle of superposition, which says that wavelike events combine according to a probability amplitude rather than a probability. Mathematically, a probability amplitude is a complex number (that is, a number like 0.1 + 0.2i, where i denotes the square root of -1), not a positive real number. Thus two nonzero probability amplitudes (say, 0.1 + 0.2i and -0.1 - 0.2i) can add to zero, which is never true of classical probabilities.

...

For many years it was thought that Heisenberg's principle was the mechanism responsible for enforcing complementarity. However, it was recently hypothesized that complementarity is more fundamental-that it should be possible to "mark" a particle's position in a way that does not alter its momentum. This leads to a class of experiments known as quantum erasers.

...

Roughly 20 years ago, physicists Marlan O. Scully and Kai Dr�hl, then of the Max Planck Institute for Quantum Optics in Garching, Germany, and the University of New Mexico, shook the physics community with the idea of quantum erasure. Their logic was as follows: If the information providing the object's trajectory can be determined without significantly perturbing it, then the interference should disappear (in accordance with complementarity). But if that information is subsequently "erased," then the interference should return. One might even say that "interference equals ignorance" (of the particle's path).

...

Our experiment uses polarization as a path marker. ... Now imagine that we repeat Young's experiment with many horizontally polarized photons. Behind the slits we insert two quarter-wave plates, one that turns the horizontally polarized photons into right-circularly polarized photons, and the other that makes them left-circularly polarized. Remarkably, the interference fringes will disappear and be replaced with a single swath of light, most intense in the middle. If we plot the distribution of photons on a graph we get a bell-shaped curve.

What happened to the interference? The photons no longer seem to behave like quantum coins but instead like boring, classical ones. The wave plates have now unambiguously correlated each slit with a particular polarization. Using a circular polarizer, we could measure the polarization and discover which slit each photon passed through. Note that we don't actually have to measure the polarization to destroy the interference pattern. It is enough that the which-path information is available to us; playing dumb will not restore the interference.

...

To demonstrate quantum erasure, one must do more than find a way to mark which path the photon took; one must also show how to "erase" that information. We do this by inserting a linear horizontal polarizer between the quarter-wave plates and the detector. When we put the polarizer into place and repeat the experiment, instead of the bell-shaped curve of photon detections, we see an interference pattern.

But how can that be? We have already said that simply playing dumb does not bring back interference. Why does a horizontal polarizer bring it back? The answer is that it erases the which-path information. Remember that our horizontal polarizer filters either a right-circular or left-circular polarized photon into a horizontally polarized one, so that there is no longer any way to tell the difference between them. So once a photon has passed through the polarizer, it cannot be determined whether it came from slit 1 or slit 2. With the particle-like information removed, the photons are free to start acting like waves again

Similarly, if we place a linear vertical polarizer between the quarter-wave plates and the detector, we again erase the which-path information. However, in this case we observe a fringe pattern-commonly called anti-fringes-that is exactly out of phase with the pattern we saw through the horizontal polarizer. Anti-fringes exhibit a central minimum (dark stripe).

  ....

Does the uncertainty principle say anything about this experiment? No. Polarization and position are not complementary variables, so, as in the Scully-Englert-Walther proposal, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle does not apply here. So what is enforcing the complementarity principle?

The answer is quantum entanglement. ... (much more follows)

--------End of selected quotes--------

The article says a lot more than this. The main idea I get from it is that experimentally, it's _observability_ rather than _observation_ that changes the situation from entangled quantum to particular classical. This isn't a philosophical position, nor is it an explanation of the quantum mystery. All it does is to demonstrate that one cannot rely on classical meso-scale intuition when dealing with the real world of the very small.

I'm sure this doesn't clear up any mysteries, but it should go a little way to answering Bill's and Rick's questions.

Please don't ask me to expand on this. If you want to know more about it, please go to the original article or search for related material in the literature or on the Web.

Martin

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2005.03.28.0955)]

Point before we move on, are we discussing "Control Theory" or "Perceptual
Control Theory" here? :wink:

I recall just recently seeing The Elegant Universe, that program that deals with
String Theory. I guess you could add another section to your comment about
String Theory, too, you know.

As in the case of Newton's Theories, the main components are force, motion and
gravitation? Right, while we can measure, predict, and do experiments with
causation at the level of Newton and Einstein (and later theories?), we may not
truly understand what gravitation is (according to the String Theory guys) any
better than Einstein's curved space (I like the statement, a body orbits another
body simply because it is riding the curve of space that gravitation causes.).
So, the issue of causation is not well-understood because a basic component such
as universal forces are not well-understood. However, given that String Theory
is based in mathematics, and the objects of it are not ordinarily physical, and
so would not be able to be subjected to a physical experiment, if String Theory
would really represent the "Universe" we can't understand causation the way we
do after having done experiments with Newton and Einstein's theories.

I guess this comes down to PCT and causation, then. How far away from physical
science, quantum mechanics, string theory, theory of everything does PCT have to
be, for the elementary forces of the universe to be minimally effective on PCT?
Newton makes some assumptions that gravitation acts as it does, and deals with
it as a given, Einstein extends that, and so on... But in each case, for the
theory to work well enough, there are always going to be some givens. And G�del
provided evidence that it is mathematically very difficult to have everything
consistently described.

--Bryan

So, why is quantum theory necessary to understand perceptual control theory?

···

[Bruce Gregory (2005.0328.0711)]

...

Personally, I'm in the third interpretation camp, which is why I argued
that we really don't understand Newton's Laws any better than we do QM.
The former simply describe the behavior of a world that we are familiar
with, the latter do not.

A true believer knows the solution before he understands the problem.

Re: Quantum Theory and Control
theory
[Martin Taylor 2005.03.28.11.44]

Addendum to my recent message: If you want to follow up the kind
of questions addressed there, here are some links listed following the
American Scientist article:

Professor Anton
Zeilinger’s Quantum Experiments and the Foundations of Physics Web
Site

A History of Quantum
Mechanics

SUNY-Stony
Brook University’s Double-Slit Quantum Eraser
Experiment

Emanuel H. Knill’s Introduction to Quantum Information
Processing

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2005.03.28.1005)]

Martin Taylor (2005.03.28.11.30)
  
The article "Quantum Erasure" by Walborn et al.,
in American Scientist July-August 2003
(v91-4,p336) should be relevant to both
enquiries. The experimental situation is the
Young's two-slit experiment,

Thanks Martin. This helps. It looks like physicists have a puzzling result.
The complex probability explanation sounds like a band-aid. The description
of the experiment doesn't help me understand why perceptual control theory
might help explain the result. My guess is that the result occurs because of
some property of light, not because of some property of people.

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

--------------------

This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and
may contain privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use,
disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies
of the original message.

[From Bruce Gregory (2005.0328.1440)]

Rick Marken (2005.03.28.1005)

Thanks Martin. This helps. It looks like physicists have a puzzling result.
The complex probability explanation sounds like a band-aid.

If it's a band-aid it is one of the most successful band-aids in all of science!

The description
of the experiment doesn't help me understand why perceptual control theory
might help explain the result. My guess is that the result occurs because of
some property of light, not because of some property of people.

I agree. Here is a way to think of a simple experiment that shows you how people have been invoked in explaining the results of quantum mechanics. Imagine that after passing through a polarizer a photon has a 50-50 chance of triggering a photodetector. If the photodetector is tripped it turns on a light. No one observes the light at the time of the experiment but does so a hour later. QM predicts that there is a 50-50 chance that the light will be on when it is observed (at the end of the experiment). Before the light is observed, is it on or off? Neither according to QM. Instead it is in a state consisting of a superposition of on-off. But of course we never observe such a superposition. How come? According to the "orthodox" interpretation observing the light "collapses the state vector" and leads to an unambiguous state of either on or off. (This is a version of the infamous Schroedinger's Cat experiment but no felines are at risk.)

A true believer knows the solution before he understands the problem.

[Martin Taylor 2005.03.28.14.32]

[From Rick Marken (2005.03.28.1005)]

Martin Taylor (2005.03.28.11.30)

The article "Quantum Erasure" by Walborn et al.,
in American Scientist July-August 2003
(v91-4,p336) should be relevant to both
enquiries. The experimental situation is the
Young's two-slit experiment,

Thanks Martin. This helps. It looks like physicists have a puzzling result.
The complex probability explanation sounds like a band-aid.

The notion of amplitude comes from the early days of quantum theory. It's not a novelty brought up to explain this experiment.

It's a "band-aid" in the sense that all of the mathematics behind quantum analysis is. It's rather like the situation in the 19th century, when people argued as to whether atoms were a mathematical fiction. It turned out they weren't. Now people argue as to whether the mathematics that explains the behaviour of small things consists of fictions useful for description or contains descriptions of real things.

The description
of the experiment doesn't help me understand why perceptual control theory
might help explain the result. My guess is that the result occurs because of
some property of light, not because of some property of people.

I don't at all see why PCT would help explain the result. It's a side-track from PCT, but relates to Bill's observation that all physics is based on observations. Here we have an experiment that suggests that what matters is the possibility of making an observation. It's a mystery.

By the way, it's not a property only of light. Apparently the same kind of thing happens with matter waves. I suspect that more generally it's a property of entities for which the quantum states can be entangled. I seem to remember something of the kind relating to buckyballs, too, but I won't swear to that and I don't have time to look for where I might have seen it (and misremembered it, probably :slight_smile:

However, I remember having a dialogue with Bill P about some feedback ideas of his that seemed to make a lot of sense in relation to the stability of stable particles. I'd like to be able to recover that thread, but again, a quick look didn't find it for me and I don't have time for a thorough search.

Martin

[From Bill Powers (2005.03.28.1302 MST)]

Bruce Gregory (2005.0328.0711)--

Here is one example of an experiment that demonstrates quantum entanglement. First imagine a single photon heading toward a polarizer. The polarizer is set so that 50% of the time the photon is absorbed and 50% of the time it is transmitted.

Can we rephrase that? It's not that a photon is absorbed half of the time, but that 50% of the photons are absorbed. We're talking about a lot of different photons.

Chance determines whether a photon is absorbed or transmitted. Now imagine two photons created in what is called a "singlet state". QM tells us that if one of the photons is absorbed, the other will be transmitted by identically oriented polarizers. This is what happens.

I think that's a consequence of speaking of photons as discrete particles which can only be absorbed or not absorbed. This leads to problems because there is no natural preferred plane of polarization. How can there be any degree of absorption other than none or all? We are forced to speak of probabilities: for a polarizer at a 45-degree angle to the state of polarization of incoming photons, the probability of absorption is 50%. Instead of a photon being only half-absorbed, half of the photons are completely absorbed and the other half are not absorbed at all. I consider this a bad solution to the problem. How do the photons know how many previous and subsequent photons have been or are yet to be absorbed, so that the proper ratio can be maintained? And more to the point, what is the difference between photons that are absorbed and those that are not absorbed? If there is no difference then there is no physical basis for enforcing the probability. Without such a physical basis, probability is simply magic, arm-waving. If we could find the basis, we could do away with the probability and speak of distributions of variable values instead. In other words, there would always be a reason why this photon was absorbed, and that one was not.

The third interpretation is that this result is simply what the equations predict, "one absorbed, one created." The equations say nothing about an mechanism and we have to let it rest here.

That's about where I stand, too. What we have so far are descriptions of phenomena, but no explanations. We're puzzled by the phenomena precisely because none of the explanations makes sense.

I think one reason we have no explanations is that the underlying terms are being taken for granted, and are the wrong ones. I can't be more explicit than that, but I can give an example.

Back in the 1960s, I invented a method of image sharpening. The way I conceived the problem was as follows. A fuzzy image from a telescope is composed of the overlapping fuzzed-out images of a lot of point sources of light. In the case of a distant star, we see the "fuzzing function" directly: instead of a point, a highly-magnified picture shows a diffraction pattern further blurred by atmospheric effects.

Knowing this, can we then deduce what the original sharp image would look like, given the fuzzy image and the form of the "fuzzing function" (more usually called the "instrument profile")? I showed that this could indeed be done, and did it -- about 30 years after the first time someone else had done it, unbeknownst to me.

I solved the problem as a feedback problem. Start with a trial array of sharp-image intensities (all zeros will do). Pass that trial image through the fuzzing function to produce a (perceived) fuzzy image. Compare that fuzzy image point for point with the "fuzzy original" (reference) image from the telescope. Use the array of differences (error signals) to adjust the amplitudes of the intensities in the trial image. Repeat as long as there is a decrease in the difference between the artificially-fuzzed image and the fuzzy original.

This works very nicely, and it also worked nicely in the "Richardson-Lucy" method (something like that) that was already known. But there was one big difference between my method and the other one: the explanation of how it works. In the R-L method, the computations start with a lot of Bayesian probabilities, the probability that point x,y in the array will have a particular amplitude given the amplitude of a corresponding point in the fuzzy original. After a lot of fairly complex calculations, this approach yields a set of mathematical operations that are identical to those I used.

Identical. So here we have two approaches using exactly the same mathematical forms, but differing radically in what the mathematics is said to represent. My approach has nothing to do with probabilities; the Bayesian approach has nothing to do with feedback control systems. So how do we choose between them?

I think we choose my approach simply because the underlying explanation is tied exactly, variable for variable and parameter for parameter, with observable quantities in the equations actually used. Nothing extraneous is introduced. The Bayesian approach introduces probabilities and dependencies which, if they actually had counterparts in reality, would indeed produce the same result -- but those probabilities and dependencies are unobservable; they are imaginary. So Occam comes down on the side of my simple explanation.

Could something like this be going on in the field of quantum theory? Well, how much of what is said to be happening is unobservable, and must be imagined? As far as I know, most of it. This is quite aside from the predictive value of the computations. The mathematics may well turn out to be exactly right -- but the interpretation could be wildly wrong.

Does that ring a bell for you?

Best.

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2005.03.28.1343 MST)]

Martin Taylor 2005.03.28.11.30 --

Martin, I am greatly enjoying your competent contributions to this thread and therefore beg off discussing them, in favor of a zillion other things I have to be doing. The posts are accumulating far faster than I can deal with them, so I'm giving up. Not that I'll stop commenting, but my output has hit a limit so I just have to ignore some things, without prejudice (as opposed to those I am ignoring WITH prejudice).

I really look forward to seeing you at the CSG meeting. It's been a long time.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2005l.03.28.1355 MST)]

Bruce Gregory (2005.0328.1440)--

I agree. Here is a way to think of a simple experiment that shows you how people have been invoked in explaining the results of quantum mechanics. Imagine that after passing through a polarizer a photon has a 50-50 chance of triggering a photodetector. If the photodetector is tripped it turns on a light. No one observes the light at the time of the experiment but does so a hour later. QM predicts that there is a 50-50 chance that the light will be on when it is observed (at the end of the experiment). Before the light is observed, is it on or off? Neither according to QM. Instead it is in a state consisting of a superposition of on-off. But of course we never observe such a superposition. How come? According to the "orthodox" interpretation observing the light "collapses the state vector" and leads to an unambiguous state of either on or off. (This is a version of the infamous Schroedinger's Cat experiment but no felines are at risk.)

The problem with these clever QT thought-experiments is that they are put-up jobs, full of hidden simplifying assumptions that make them work out right. If I want to know whether the refrigerator light is really off before I open the door, there is a simple way to find out. Quickly depress the interlock switch, wait a couple of seconds, and feel the light bulb. If it's hot, the bulb was on, even "unobserved." That would work for the quantum experiment, too.

But, you can say, that makes the light "observable." Really? What if that strategy doesn't occur to you (as it appears not to have occurred to the originator of this thought experiment)? If you don't know of a side-effect that you can use to make the determination, does the probability know that you don't know it? And that nobody is (or somebody is) going to tell you about it in time?

Schroedinger's Cat is similar. Exactly when is a cat dead? Can you observe that it is dead just from seeing it lying motionless in the cage? If so, I have lived with a lot of dead cats. If you see it lying motionless, and conclude incorrectly that it is dead, has the event in question happened? When the cat opens one eye and looks at you, does the event un-happen again? Was the cat dead for any appreciable time before you looked, or did it go from perfectly healthy to dead in the space of a femtosecond? The latter would seem necessary, though death never works that way. What if the cat is dead, and decayed?

Even the lightest suggestion of realism makes these experiments fall apart -- or at least raises some interesting questions about just what could possibly be meant by "observe" and "observable."

I suspect that a large part of the problem here comes from using discrete terms to describe a continuous universe.

Best,

Bill

[From Bill Powers (2005.03.28.1412 MST)]

The laundry can wait another 10 minutes.

Martin Taylor 2005.03.28.14.32 --

However, I remember having a dialogue with Bill P about some feedback ideas of his that seemed to make a lot of sense in relation to the stability of stable particles. I'd like to be able to recover that thread, but again, a quick look didn't find it for me and I don't have time for a thorough search.

The idea was that the resistance of mass to acceleration can be modeled as a feedback force. An applied force tends to accelerate the mass; the feedback force generated by acceleration subtracts from the applied force; the net force does the actual accelerating. How much net force there is depends on the loop gain. If we could figure out how to reduce the feedback force to zero, we'd have the famous "inertialess drive."

This sort of idea can apply any time there is a force and a reaction force that are said to be "equal." Unfortunately, I know of no way to measure the two forces independently.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2005.0328.1715)]

Bill Powers (2005l.03.28.1355 MST)

Schroedinger's Cat is similar. Exactly when is a cat dead? Can you observe that it is dead just from seeing it lying motionless in the cage? If so, I have lived with a lot of dead cats. If you see it lying motionless, and conclude incorrectly that it is dead, has the event in question happened? When the cat opens one eye and looks at you, does the event un-happen again? Was the cat dead for any appreciable time before you looked, or did it go from perfectly healthy to dead in the space of a femtosecond? The latter would seem necessary, though death never works that way. What if the cat is dead, and decayed?

Schroedinger would agree with you. He proposed the thought experiment to demonstrate the absurd conclusions that quantum mechanics leads to. Unfortunately, quantum mechanics remains a triumph of physical theory as far as prediction is concerned. It turns out that macroscopic "examples" suffer from serious problems of the sort you raise. Experiments at the quantum level, however, have never failed to confirm the predictions of quantum mechanics. As von Neumann said about mathematics, you do not understand quantum mechanics, you get used to it.

In any case, we know that the statistics of the predictions of quantum mechanics are incompatible with any possible underlying classical process. Or to put it another way, any classical model of quantum mechanics would have to fudge the numbers to match the quantum mechanical predictions.

A true believer knows the solution before he understands the problem.

[From Bruce Gregory (2005.0328.1730)]

Bill Powers (2005l.03.28.1355 MST)

It might help (or not!) to remember that the possible outcomes we are talking about with photons are a click or no click. Quantum mechanics predicts the probabilities of these events.

A true believer knows the solution before he understands the problem.

[From Bruce Gregory (2005.0328.1847)]

It struck me that there is a certain similarity between PCT and quantum mechanics. I would identify PCT with the equations that describe the behavior of a negative feedback control system. This, to me _is_ PCT. (I think of the letters as standing for Performance Control Theory.) Then there are a host of add-ons such as the Observer. The Observer plays no role in PCT. So why it is introduced? As I see it, the Observer is a "patch" to PCT in order to develop a theory of human experience rather than simply a theory of human performance. Let's call PCT and its augmentations such as the observer and the explanation of emotions as Augmented PCT or APCT. There is nothing wrong with APCT, but it is important to keep in mind that all the experiments performed to date support PCT, not APCT.

I don't expect anyone to adopt my use of the term APCT, and this communication is not intended to be critical of PCT or APCT.

A true believer knows the solution before he understands the problem.