[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0328.1152)]
Bill Powers (2003.03.27.1948 MST)
If I read your response correctly it would appear that we are a long way
from the kind of models that Rick believes are essential for developing
social programs based on PCT.
--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.
[From Bill Powers (2003.03.28.1433 MST)]
Bruce Gregory (2003.0328.1152)]
>If I read your response correctly it would appear that we are a long way
>from the kind of models that Rick believes are essential for developing
>social programs based on PCT.
I would understand better if you would say which part of the response, and
how you are reading it.
Best,
Bill P.
[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0328.1916)]
Bill Powers (2003.03.28.1433 MST)
Bruce Gregory (2003.0328.1152)]
>If I read your response correctly it would appear that we are a long way
>from the kind of models that Rick believes are essential for developing
>social programs based on PCT.I would understand better if you would say which part of the response, and
how you are reading it.
Sorry. I was referring to your statement that
"Higher systems, when they experience error, alter two major sets of
reference signals at lower levels: those that govern overt action, and
those that set the reference levels of all the biochemical life-support
systems."
Coupled with your comments about how little we know about the
organization of the latter. To the best of my knowledge, PCT models to
date have been confined to reference signals in the system that produces
overt action and have not dealt with biochemical life-support systems.
To the extent that the latter are involved in something like RTP, they
therefore remain unmodeled. Rick said:
Only to the extent that the "assumption that human beings are autonomous
control systems that act in ways that stabilize their perceptions" is
embodied in a detailed, quantitative model that maps in a particular way
to behavior."
This goal will have to await a better understanding of the ways in which
higher systems alter the reference levels of biochemical life-support
systems, unless I failed to understand your comments.
--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.
www.joincanadanow.org
[From Bill Powers (2003.03.28.2100 MST)]
Bruce Gregory (2003.0328.1916)--
>>I would understand better if you would say which part of the response, and
>>how you are reading it.
Sorry. I was referring to your statement that
"Higher systems, when they experience error, alter two major sets of
reference signals at lower levels: those that govern overt action, and
those that set the reference levels of all the biochemical life-support
systems."Coupled with your comments about how little we know about the
organization of the latter. To the best of my knowledge, PCT models to
date have been confined to reference signals in the system that produces
overt action and have not dealt with biochemical life-support systems.
To the extent that the latter are involved in something like RTP, they
therefore remain unmodeled.
That is true. However, this sort of proposal, which draws on what little I
do know, takes us several steps toward a model. And it offers the
beginnings of an understanding of what emotion is and how it works, which
is an improvement on the unanalyzed experience of emotion, or theories
about it that have no connection to reality at all.
If you understand me to mean by the term reality "the sum to date of our
scientific representations of the world we live in," you read me correctly.
Best,
Bill P.
[From Rick Marken (2003.03.28.2030)]
Bruce Gregory (2003.0328.1916)-
Bill Powers (2003.03.28.1433 MST)
>
> Bruce Gregory (2003.0328.1152)]
>
> >If I read your response correctly it would appear that we are a long way
> >from the kind of models that Rick believes are essential for developing
> >social programs based on PCT.
>
> I would understand better if you would say which part of the response, and
> how you are reading it.Sorry. I was referring to your statement that
"Higher systems, when they experience error, alter two major sets of
reference signals at lower levels: those that govern overt action, and
those that set the reference levels of all the biochemical life-support
systems."...Rick said:
Only to the extent that the "assumption that human beings are autonomous
control systems that act in ways that stabilize their perceptions" is
embodied in a detailed, quantitative model that maps in a particular way
to behavior."This goal will have to await a better understanding of the ways in which
higher systems alter the reference levels of biochemical life-support
systems, unless I failed to understand your comments.
I think you underestimate what we can already do with the models we have. I
think we can already build control models that can be used very effectively as
the basis for developing and evaluating social programs. As I said, I have
developed such models to evaluate medical error reduction programs and
practices. I think it would be easy to "tune up" many existing social programs
(like school discipline programs) based on PCT. It sounds like Stefan Balke is
doing just that. We don't need to be able to build a society of androids
before we can use PCT to tell us that some practices will produce more
desirable results than others.
When I said we need "detailed, quantitative" models the level of detail I was
thinking of was the basic control of input model: o = f(r-p) and p = g(o+d).
Put two of those together and that's all you need as the basis for developing
good social programs.
Best
Rick
--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313