[From Rick Marken (2000.09.09.1750)]
Me to Ray Bennett:
Your header looks great but could you try to put
it in the body of the post (like mine, above)
Ray Bennett (2000.09.09) --
I don't know how to get it to do this other than a copy
and paste or typing out the whole thing. Is there an easier
way?
Not that I know of. I just type it out every time.
Me:
The job of the teacher is to teach.
David Wolsk (2000.09.09) --
Yes, that's what's taught in most teacher training .....
unfortunately. What accomplishes the real job is to assist
the learning process and to help it become self-directed.
That sounds great. But it still involves control of behavior,
right? My point about teaching was that it involves control (even
if the real job of the teacher "is to assist the learning process
and to help it become self-directed").
What you are describing as the "real job" of teaching is still
a control process; the controlled perception is the "learning
process", which is an aspect of another person's behavior. The
reference for this perception is "self-directed". The teacher
gets the perception of the learning process into the reference
state, "self directed" (that is, the teacher accomplishes the job)
by taking an action called "assisting". The teacher acts (assists)
until the perception of the learning process is "self directed".
Does this sound right to you?
Best
Rick
···
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com
[From Bruce Gregory (2000.0910.1727)]
Marc Abrams (2000.09.09.2215)
I don't think it envolves "controlling" someone elses behavior. It is a
matter of finding out how to "reach" the students. _not_ an easy thing to
do.
It is so difficult because the curriculum requires students to "learn"
things they have no interest in. When you "teach" kids things they are
interested in, controlling their behavior is not a major concern. For
example, notice how little success I have had in "reaching" Rick. He has no
interest in what I am saying and is not shy about letting me know it. Yet
when Bill speaks he encounters no such lack of interest. Rick is really
interested in what Bill is saying, and Bill has no trouble "teaching" him.
BG
from Ray Bennett(2000.09.11.2250 CST Aust.)
Rick Marken wrote:
The job of the teacher is to teach.
It’s easy to say something like this. Teaching is a very varied
and complex activity. It does involve control as understood by PCT. It
also involves counter control or conflict.
It seems to me that students like being at school not because of
the teacher or the things that go on in class but because of the other
students. Very few of them would go if they were going to be with the teacher
and just learn. What they miss when they are on holidays are the other
students. I think that they control for other student attention. One of
the reasons Ed Ford’s RTP can help is that students actually leave the
room and the others. As the teacher sets the basis for being with the class,
not disturbing others, and has them leave when they persist in doing this,
they begin controlling for this at school. The dot is to be with other
students. To get their knot on this dot they don’t disturb, only if by
disturbing they have to leave. If by disturbing they remain in the class
and get the other student’s attentions, they continue. They do whatever
is needed to do to be with other students.
Teachers often try to change the behaviour of students. They tell
them to stop doing certain things and to do others. They make them miss
out on play etc. They give them rewards when they act how the teacher asks
them to act like stickers. At any time however the student can decide that
these things are not important as long as they stay with the class. They
don’t repond to the teacher’s actions. They control for what they want,
and usually this is to be with the others. They will complete tasks. They
will say words. etc.
Students are questioning and sometimes what is being taught, talked
about by the teacher, read by the teacher or written about etc. is of interest
to them. Like most people they do want to know what life is about. They
also want the approval of others, particularly other students and significant
people in their lives. When a significant person values something, the
other people who regard them as being important in their life, will do
what they value so that they may be significant to them. They control for
being important to the other person. It seems to me that this is what happens
in schools. We may think that the students are interested in the learning
but it may only be because they are controlling to be of importance in
the life of another person. Ask yourself what you learnt at school. A lot
is just the result of being at school. A lot cannot be remembered. If this
is the case are we focussing on the wrong things in schools? Negotiation
may work not because the student does what is of interest to them but that
which enables them to control for what is important to them. A motivating
teacher may be one who doesn’t stop them from controlling for what is important
to them as well as covering subjects which some may say are interesting.
I am sure that most of the students in my class would be interested and
motivated if we talked about sex, sport, popular music and music personalities,
and TV shows and personalities. These are the subjects of their talk outside
of school and inside school when the teacher is not near. The job of a
teacher maybe to teach but what does a teacher teach?
[From Bruce Gregory (2000.0912.0931)]
Ray Bennett(2000.09.11.2250 CST Aust.)
Your experience of students is much the same as mine.
BG
[From Richard Kennaway (2000.09.12.1443 BST)]
Ray Bennett(2000.09.11.2250 CST Aust.):
Rick Marken wrote:
The job of the teacher is to teach.
It's easy to say something like this. Teaching is a very varied
and complex activity. It does involve control as understood by PCT. It
also involves counter control or conflict.
It seems to me that students like being at school not because of
the teacher or the things that go on in class but because of the other
students.
This reminds me of an anecdote I read a few weeks ago on one of the
Buddhist newsgroups. The writer is a Buddhist scholar at an American
university:
The first time I was asked to give a course of talks at a
Buddhist temple, I was a little unsure about how to approach
certain topics. I knew how to talk about them in an academic
classroom, but I was unsure how best to approach them among
fellow practitioners. So after the first lecture, I asked the
Zen master whether he found the tone and pace of my lecture
suitable. He smiled warmly and said "It really doesn't much
matter what you say. Most of the people are here to find sexual
partners anyway. Just think of yourself as providing something
like background music at a singles club." "Ah," I said, "then
it's just the same as lecturing at the university."
-- Richard Kennaway, jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk, http://www.sys.uea.ac.uk/~jrk/
School of Information Systems, Univ. of East Anglia, Norwich, U.K.
[From Bruce Gregory (2000.0912.0959)]
Richard Kennaway (2000.09.12.1443 BST)
"Ah," I said, "then
it's just the same as lecturing at the university."
Wonderful! Thanks.
BG
[From Marc Abrams (2000.09.09.2215)]
[From Rick Marken (2000.09.09.1750)]
> The job of the teacher is to teach.
I don't think so. I recently helped my daughter on a school project ( she is
a junior in high school ). She interviewed 100 kids from her school on what
it takes to be a good teacher. The _overwhelming_ response was basically two
things. First, was respect for the student. This "respect" took the form of
a teacher "caring" about a student "beyond" the narrow focus of that
particlar classroom. The second was a _passion_ for the subject and a style
that _created_ interest for the students.
I agree with David. teachers don't "teach", People learn.
I think kids basically control for boredom and interest. Everything else
(i.e "discipline problems") are rooted in the teacher not meeting the above
2 criteria. The more they don't, the more "discipline problems" they will
have.
I don't think it envolves "controlling" someone elses behavior. It is a
matter of finding out how to "reach" the students. _not_ an easy thing to
do.
Marc