[From Dick Robertson, 980819.0819CDT]
Hello to MOL interest group. I'm putting this on csgnet because
I'm not sure how this MOL interest group gets messages. Do I copy
my message separately to all the people you listed, or is there a
handier way?
I think we should start sending these MOL interchanges to the
interested people: David Goldstein, Dick Robertson, and probably
Rick Marken, and anyone else you can think of. I'm making up a
nickname with all those names in it (including mine, so we all can
use "reply to all" and all our names will be on the list).
One thing I do seem to be coming up against frequently is: people
will tell me a bit a about what's going on for them and then when
I ask them what they think about what they've just described they
typically say "It sucks" or "It's just shit" or something like
that. Where do I go from here?
Do I just ask them to explain that to me and encourage them to
start talking about the evaluation they've just made? We seem to
have a bit of a block here if I do that, I've had answers like
"Well, it just sucks"
I won't copy Bill's answer to this because you all have it, but I
think it has some really good speculations here. This is what I
think is worth starting a kind of archive of experiences in using
and/or understanding the process of changing a person goes through.
I avoided using "MOL" here because it's not yet established that
all change results from going up a level, although I've had some
neat experiences where that was involved.
From Tim again:
I worked with a woman last night who has had a number of
relationships and has been beaten in every one...
When she said "It sucks" last night it was at the end of a long
description she had given me about her life at the moment. I asked
her what went through her mind when she heard herself describing
her life and that's what she said. She sounded really overwhelmed
when she said it, almost like she had never really thought of it
in that way before.
Tim, I wonder if it would have made any difference if you had
asked, "How do you feel about the life you've just described?" as
a way of encouraging her to go up a level, whereas possibly asking
what went through her mind as she heard herself might be taken as
a request to summarize. Sometimes when I have done that I get an
answer that summarizes or evaluates as maybe you did here. In
other instances it does get a different reply, like, "I hate it,"
or the like. Even then -- with most people I have gone through
this with -- it has taken some explaining to get across the idea
that that was a different aspect/level of their self.
That's why I value the verbatim examples -- so we can see all the
alternative ways of inviting clients to experience for themselves
that they are hierarchical systems.
A friend of mine that I've met at university came along. I
explained the process briefly to him (I've talked to him before as
well) and then he was keen to give it a go.
I asked him what he thought about this and to watch what happened
was incredible. His face contorted he opened his eyes wide and he
said nothing for a long time. Then he said that his mind had gone
"still". He said it was like someone had a loud television on and
then they switched it off. He spent a few minutes just on his own,
thinking about things and then I asked him whether he thought of
his current girlfriend in the way he'd thought of her when he came
along tonight. He said he thought of her much more affectionately.
This is neat, good description.
It sounds very similar to an experience I had a long time ago with
a grad student who was stuck in completing his dissertation
(Remember I told the first half of this story at the conference,
but the discussion went on to other things and I never told the
end). This incident occurred before Bill talked about the MOL, but
I looked back on it as an example of it, because I got my idea from
my early understanding of PCT.
I said to the guy, "Well, suppose you now have got your degree,
what would that be like?"
As in your case the body language was dramatic. His eyes widened,
his jaw dropped and he said, "I've always said that when I get my
degree I'd get a regular job and settle down to a normal 9 - 5
lifestyle, but I'm enjoying my present hippy life too much."
(There was the conflict at the principle level.)
The next time he came in he had finished his library work and
scheduled his orals. He told me, "I realized that I can get my
degree and still decide what kind of life style I want to live."
Finally to David: Good point, I agree too.
Back to you Tim,
about the Bully research. Sounds like a worthwhile project. Franz
Plooij gives a convincing (to me) argument for videotaping
interviews. Is that a possibility for you? When you can see the
body language it often helps a lot in resolving the ambiguity of
language alone for understanding what the person is really
communicating.
Best, Dick R.From ???@??? Wed Aug 19 16:25:13 1998
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···
From: Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net>
At 07:15 AM 8/12/98 +1000, Tim wrote:
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:21:55 -0500
Reply-To: "Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)"
From: R J Robertson <R-Robertson@NEIU.EDU>
Subject: Why a NEW net?
To: Multiple recipients of list CSGNET
<CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
X-UIDL: d4d93621e98de28109018369c2a10c76
[From Dick Robertson, 980819.0821CDT]
Subject: New net?
[From Bill Powers (980816.1844 MDT)]
When this discussion list was begun nearly 8 years ago, there was some talk
about whether to make it an open or closed list. I argued strongly for
keeping it open, with anyone being allowed to say anything they wanted to.
No censorship, no Purity Board, or any of that stuff. I haven't changed my
mind, but recent events have rather sorely tested the principles under
which I prefer to operate.
I agree with the various people who argue for the delete key as the simple
solution. I wonder if I've missed something? I'm aware of Bruce Gregory's
really intemperate outburst at Rick a while back, for which he apologized. I
thought that was the end of it.
As for "dilletantes" revising PCT to suit themselves, I agree that if you don't
say anything it can be taken as a tacit admission that, Yes, anyone can define
PCT as they will. That can't be left to stand. On the other hand, what's
wrong with a message, "I've stated before why I think that is wrong," and get
on to current interests?
Best, Dick R.