reinforcement

From Jason Gosnell [06.04.05 1540CST]

Well, it has finally happened to me...I no longer understand behaviorism. I
have not been in touch with it for some time and have begun to study
something called Relational Frame Theory. It is on the web with a tutorial
to it if you are interested. Basically, it has to do with how the mind
operates and it is derived from behaviorism to some degree. I hope someone
is into the cognitive stuff enough to look at it and tell me what they
think.

As I was doing the tutorial, it states..."Dermont does [such and such] and
Yvonne laughed in a reinforcing manner." I busted out laughing because I
could not understand what that meant. What does it mean to a behaviorist
that someone laughs at me in a reinforcing manner? I don't understand it
anymore.

Now...why is my mind blown? It may be PCT study, but even Zen and Buddhism
which I study would find this odd I think. Anyway, I no longer know what
reinforcement really means--although I thought I used to.

So, would someone remind me as to what the issue PCT takes with behaviorism
is and why I am having difficulty understanding the old lingo? I suspect
that it is because behaviorism acts as if there is a world out there and a
me in here and so I see things as causing my behavior. Yvonne laughing in a
very "reinforcing" way though actually has little to do with Yvonne. Yes,
Yvonne is there in the field of awareness, she is a kind of perception for
me, but "reinforcing" to me now just means that I liked what I heard--or I
appreciated that experience--or I experienced something that I wanted to
experience--or something along these lines. I already am organized in some
manner to like that laugh. So, now I don't get it.

Sincerely,

Jason Gosnell

"To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be
enlightened by all things."
  --Dogen

All electronic mail communications originating from or transmitted to
Bridgeway Center, Inc. are subject to monitoring. This message and the
information contained in it, which may consist of electronic data
attachments, are the confidential and proprietary communications of
Bridgeway Center, Inc. and are intended to be received only by the
individual or individuals to whom the message has been addressed If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please take notice
that any use, copying, printing, forwarding or distribution of this message,
in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error, please immediately notify the Bridgeway Center, Inc. Privacy Officer
at (850) 833-7540 and/or forward the message to hipaa@bridgeway.org and
delete or destroy all copies of this message.

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2005.06.05.1050)]

Seems to me that behaviorism cannot divorce the observer from the actor (the
observed). We say that "she reinforced him" but did she really? Can we know her
intentions, and the intentions of the one being "reinforced?"

So, the thing that happened to you, I think, in a very informal reaction here,
is that perhaps the concept of "you can know what someone is intending by their
actions" is not scientific, because those actions alone do not permit enough
triagulation, confirmation or reflection (ethnographically scientific
investigations).

The reinforcing notion is a perception that an observer or actor controls, but
in the same incident may not be the same thing.

I remember reading some stuff by Clark McPhail and Kent McClelland, having to do
with PCT analysis of group activity.

Clark's info.
http://www.soc.uiuc.edu/people/profile.asp?login=cmcphail&type=faculty

I never had a chance to meet him while I was doing my work, but his Collective
Action work had an impact on my studies: "THE MYTH OF THE MADDING CROWD" -
(Aldine De Gruyter, 1991).

Amazon review excerpt:

"So this isn't a book about crowds. It's about theories of crowds. The argument
is that the theory introduced into American sociology by Robert Park and
elaborated by a series of subsequent scholars is entirely without observational
basis. On the old view, crowds are volatile aggregations carried away by
self-induced emotions to irrational acts. The crowd's self-stimulation
transforms individuals from their normal condition of self-control. Individual
self-identity is submerged in the collective identity, such that the crowd can
act as a unit in the commission of acts that would be morally repugnant to each
individual acting alone. In a word, the crowd mind can transform law-abiding
individuals into madcaps, bullies, assailants, vandals, arsonists, agents of
sedition, and worse.

"This view, McPhail declares, is 'without logical or empirical foundation'. He
proposes instead the rational actor model, in which 'the individual in the
crowd, as elsewhere, controls his or her behavior by means of self-instructions
for behavioral adjustments in relation to the goals or objectives he or she is
pursuing' (p 17). The 'unconventional' behaviors sometimes observed are not, as
sociologists previously, irrational, but rather are merely indirect methods of
obtaining purposive goals."

Kent McClelland has a book out there in Amazon, but I remember less:

Purpose, Meaning, and Action : Control Systems Theories in Sociology
McClelland & Fararo (Eds.)

Complete review:
"Book Description
Control Systems Theory, a newly developing theoretical perspective, starts from
an important insight into human behavior: that people attempt to control the
world around them as they perceive it. This volume brings together for the first
time the work of all of the most prominent sociologists contributing to the
development of this flexible and wide-ranging theoretical paradigm."

I think that the common mistake is to confuse our own intepretations with
others' intentions, which we all do. The problem with behaviorism is that it
denies internal processes in favor of the observer. I think that Skinner
realized this later (see Perkinson or Cziko), but the die was cast.

Cheers,

--Bryan

···

>[Jason Gosnell (06.04.05 1540 CST)]

Well, it has finally happened to me...I no longer understand behaviorism.
...

As I was doing the tutorial, it states..."Dermont does [such and such] and
Yvonne laughed in a reinforcing manner." I busted out laughing because I
could not understand what that meant. What does it mean to a behaviorist
that someone laughs at me in a reinforcing manner? I don't understand it
anymore.
...

Sincerely,

Jason Gosnell

[From Rick Marken (2005.06.05.1125)]

Jason Gosnell (06.04.05 1540CST)--

Well, it has finally happened to me...I no longer understand behaviorism...

So, would someone remind me as to what the issue PCT takes with behaviorism
is and why I am having difficulty understanding the old lingo? I suspect
that it is because behaviorism acts as if there is a world out there and a
me in here and so I see things as causing my behavior.

I disagree with your suspicion because PCT also "acts as though" (assumes that) there is a world out there and a "me in here". My take on the difference between PCT and behaviorism is that, where behaviorism sees _some_ things in the world out there (reinforcements) as controlling human behavior, PCT sees human behavior as the process of controlling representations of things out there.

Behaviorism is based on a number of easy to make observations that seem to show that behavior is caused by external events. One set of observations is of "reflexive" responses to stimuli, such as the familiar patellar reflex (the knee jerk response) where a behavior (leg kick) is caused by a tap on the appropriate location on the knee. The other set of observations is of certain stimuli (food,access for females, etc) apparently resulting in repetition of the behavior that produced them. These are the observations that gave rise to the idea of "reinforcement". Behaviors, such as bar presses and key pecks, that result in food or access to females tend to be repeated. So food and access to females appear to strengthen (reinforce) the behavior that produced them. Thus, food and access to females are called "reinforcements".

PCT doesn't dispute these observations, just the interpretation thereof. PCT views the appearance of a causal relationship between stimulus and response in "reflexive" behaviors such as the patellar reflex as an illusion that results from ignoring a controlled variable. In the case of the patellar reflex, the controlled variable is the degree of tension on the patellar tendon. The tap on the knee is a disturbance to this variable and the leg kick is an action aimed at bringing tendon tension back to the reference. PCT see the apparent reinforcing effect of food, for example, as an illusion, also, again resulting from failure to notice a controlled variable. In the care of reinforcement (like food) the controlled variable is probably an aspect of the reinforcement itself, such as it's taste and/or caloric content.

So the problem with behaviorism, from a PCT perspective, is not so much what it has observed but how it has interpreted those observations. I would say that the reason behaviorism has failed to arrive at the correct interpretation of its observations is because it has not used the method of modeling as a way of testing its interpretations. I behaviorists had tried to build working models to account for observed phenomena it probably would have gotten to PCT all on its own, without any prodding from Bill Powers.

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Bruce Nevin (2005.06.05 21:28 EDT)]

Reinforcement and shaping involve application of overpowering
disturbances to controlled variables that the organism cares about until
the organism sets references for control of some other variable or
variables such that the organism's actions controlling those other
variables are to the liking of the experimentor. The controlled variable
that the experimentor disturbs is identified only as a precondition
(e.g. percentage of normal body weight as an index of hunger), nor are
the other variables that the organism comes to control identified as
such since the experimentor is interested only in the control actions.

In principle, this could be simulated in a PCT model.

  /BN

Regarding the use of "reinforcing" in Jason's message below...

I went to the relational frame web site and took the first part of the
two-part tutorial. It contains the remark about Yvonne laughing "in a
reinforcing" manner.

I didn't see the humor but then I'm a sourpuss and a grump. It seemed to me
that "reinforcing" was being used in an ordinary sense (although in what
purports to be a technical tutorial). So, I read "Yvonne laughed in a
reinforcing manner" as the equivalent of saying "Yvonne laughed in an
approving manner." And, approval, of course, might or might not serve as
reinforcement, depending on who's getting and giving it and some other
factors as well.

I'll complete the second part of the tutorial sometime this week and I might
or might not comment on it here. For now, the main relevance to PCT seems
to be that some of incidents and processes described might account for how
some reference conditions (or is it "signals"?) get established. It is
otherwise a fairly behaviorist look at matters. At least that's way it
looks to me right now.

Regards,

Fred Nickols
www.nickols.us
nickols@att.net

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Jason Gosnell
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 4:45 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: reinforcement

From Jason Gosnell [06.04.05 1540CST]

Well, it has finally happened to me...I no longer understand behaviorism.
I
have not been in touch with it for some time and have begun to study
something called Relational Frame Theory. It is on the web with a tutorial
to it if you are interested. Basically, it has to do with how the mind
operates and it is derived from behaviorism to some degree. I hope someone
is into the cognitive stuff enough to look at it and tell me what they
think.

As I was doing the tutorial, it states..."Dermont does [such and such] and
Yvonne laughed in a reinforcing manner." I busted out laughing because I
could not understand what that meant. What does it mean to a behaviorist
that someone laughs at me in a reinforcing manner? I don't understand it
anymore.

Now...why is my mind blown? It may be PCT study, but even Zen and Buddhism
which I study would find this odd I think. Anyway, I no longer know what
reinforcement really means--although I thought I used to.

So, would someone remind me as to what the issue PCT takes with
behaviorism
is and why I am having difficulty understanding the old lingo? I suspect
that it is because behaviorism acts as if there is a world out there and a
me in here and so I see things as causing my behavior. Yvonne laughing in
a
very "reinforcing" way though actually has little to do with Yvonne. Yes,
Yvonne is there in the field of awareness, she is a kind of perception for
me, but "reinforcing" to me now just means that I liked what I heard--or I
appreciated that experience--or I experienced something that I wanted to
experience--or something along these lines. I already am organized in some
manner to like that laugh. So, now I don't get it.

Sincerely,

Jason Gosnell

"To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be
enlightened by all things."
  --Dogen

Thanks for the post below, Rick. It's a very helpful description of the way
PCT looks at behaviorism. For years now I've mistakenly thought that PCTers
were trying to throw the baby (behaviorists' observations) out with the bath
water (behaviorists' interpretations).

Regards,

Fred Nickols
www.nickols.us
nickols@att.net

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Rick Marken
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 2:25 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: reinforcement

[From Rick Marken (2005.06.05.1125)]

> Jason Gosnell (06.04.05 1540CST)--
>
> Well, it has finally happened to me...I no longer understand
> behaviorism...

> So, would someone remind me as to what the issue PCT takes with
> behaviorism
> is and why I am having difficulty understanding the old lingo? I
> suspect
> that it is because behaviorism acts as if there is a world out there
> and a
> me in here and so I see things as causing my behavior.

I disagree with your suspicion because PCT also "acts as though"
(assumes that) there is a world out there and a "me in here". My take
on the difference between PCT and behaviorism is that, where
behaviorism sees _some_ things in the world out there (reinforcements)
as controlling human behavior, PCT sees human behavior as the process
of controlling representations of things out there.

Behaviorism is based on a number of easy to make observations that seem
to show that behavior is caused by external events. One set of
observations is of "reflexive" responses to stimuli, such as the
familiar patellar reflex (the knee jerk response) where a behavior (leg
kick) is caused by a tap on the appropriate location on the knee. The
other set of observations is of certain stimuli (food,access for
females, etc) apparently resulting in repetition of the behavior that
produced them. These are the observations that gave rise to the idea of
"reinforcement". Behaviors, such as bar presses and key pecks, that
result in food or access to females tend to be repeated. So food and
access to females appear to strengthen (reinforce) the behavior that
produced them. Thus, food and access to females are called
"reinforcements".

PCT doesn't dispute these observations, just the interpretation
thereof. PCT views the appearance of a causal relationship between
stimulus and response in "reflexive" behaviors such as the patellar
reflex as an illusion that results from ignoring a controlled variable.
In the case of the patellar reflex, the controlled variable is the
degree of tension on the patellar tendon. The tap on the knee is a
disturbance to this variable and the leg kick is an action aimed at
bringing tendon tension back to the reference. PCT see the apparent
reinforcing effect of food, for example, as an illusion, also, again
resulting from failure to notice a controlled variable. In the care of
reinforcement (like food) the controlled variable is probably an aspect
of the reinforcement itself, such as it's taste and/or caloric content.

So the problem with behaviorism, from a PCT perspective, is not so much
what it has observed but how it has interpreted those observations. I
would say that the reason behaviorism has failed to arrive at the
correct interpretation of its observations is because it has not used
the method of modeling as a way of testing its interpretations. I
behaviorists had tried to build working models to account for observed
phenomena it probably would have gotten to PCT all on its own, without
any prodding from Bill Powers.

Best regards

Rick
---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2005.06.06.1130 CDT)]

Fred, you are not at all what you say. What you wrote, I think, pointed to the
solution of the problem better than what I wrote earlier. This statement:
"Yvonne laughed in a reinforcing manner" is shorthand possibly for a more
accurate description of what people witnessed (what happened):

Yvonne: "I thought he was right, and I kinda giggled while giving him my
approval."
Observer: "Yvonne seemed to agree with what he said when she laughed and nodded
her head."
Psy. Writer: "Yvonne laughed in a reinforcing manner."

mmm?

--Bryan

[Fred Nichols (2005.06.06.1153 EDT)]

···

Subject: "I think Yvonne liked what I said, she always laughs when she agrees."

Regarding the use of "reinforcing" in Jason's message below...

I went to the relational frame web site and took the first part of the
two-part tutorial. It contains the remark about Yvonne laughing "in a
reinforcing" manner.

I didn't see the humor but then I'm a sourpuss and a grump. It seemed to me
that "reinforcing" was being used in an ordinary sense (although in what
purports to be a technical tutorial). So, I read "Yvonne laughed in a
reinforcing manner" as the equivalent of saying "Yvonne laughed in an
approving manner." And, approval, of course, might or might not serve as
reinforcement, depending on who's getting and giving it and some other
factors as well.....

Nice wrap up, Bryan. You seem to have captured it quite well.

Regards,

Fred Nickols
www.nickols.us
nickols@att.net

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan Thalhammer
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 12:27 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: reinforcement

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2005.06.06.1130 CDT)]

Fred, you are not at all what you say. What you wrote, I think, pointed to
the
solution of the problem better than what I wrote earlier. This statement:
"Yvonne laughed in a reinforcing manner" is shorthand possibly for a more
accurate description of what people witnessed (what happened):

Yvonne: "I thought he was right, and I kinda giggled while giving him my
approval."
Observer: "Yvonne seemed to agree with what he said when she laughed and
nodded
her head."
Subject: "I think Yvonne liked what I said, she always laughs when she
agrees."
Psy. Writer: "Yvonne laughed in a reinforcing manner."

mmm?

--Bryan

[Fred Nichols (2005.06.06.1153 EDT)]

> Regarding the use of "reinforcing" in Jason's message below...
>
> I went to the relational frame web site and took the first part of the
> two-part tutorial. It contains the remark about Yvonne laughing "in a
> reinforcing" manner.
>
> I didn't see the humor but then I'm a sourpuss and a grump. It seemed
to me
> that "reinforcing" was being used in an ordinary sense (although in what
> purports to be a technical tutorial). So, I read "Yvonne laughed in a
> reinforcing manner" as the equivalent of saying "Yvonne laughed in an
> approving manner." And, approval, of course, might or might not serve
as
> reinforcement, depending on who's getting and giving it and some other
> factors as well.....

From Jason Gosnell [06.06.05 1255CST]

Fred Nichols

I'll complete the second part of the tutorial sometime this week and I

might
or might not comment on it here. For now, the main relevance to PCT seems
to be that some of incidents and processes described might account for how
some reference conditions (or is it "signals"?) get established. It is
otherwise a fairly behaviorist look at matters. At least that's way it
looks to me right now.<<

Thanks Fred. I hope you do complete it--and I hope my hope doesn't throw a
wrench in your motivation. I want to take behavioral explanations as applied
to the mind like RFT and translate that into PCT. So, I'll be working on
that myself. What I want to understand is my direct experience, not how it
is just viewed from the outside.

Also, Rick indicated that PCT assumes as does behaviorism that there is a me
in here and a world out there and so there seems to be two separate
processes--or totally separate. Me in here--world out there. In Zen, which I
also study, there is that understanding too, but that understanding is
largely based on thought--thinking about myself and my world. So, they have
another understanding that that dualistic understanding falls within...There
isn't really a me in here and world out there other than a thought about
this. It's all just experience. Even the experience of "me" is just a
thought. Or, the sensations of this body are just "experience"--there is not
exactly a me who possesses this experience...is there? I imagine there to
be, but that's just another perception in the field of awareness. Or, there
is a me, but it is all experience-in-action. What do you all think? The me
is the total context of experience in which all experience unfolds.
Basically, the me is the world perceived, the world perceived is the me. So,
there is no complete separation.

If I look at my computer screen now and ask--is this computer inside or
outside of my mind? I think it is outside of it, but if I can look without
thinking about my experience, I notice that the screen is within my field of
attention. In Zen, the whole space of awareness or attention is mind. They
call it Big Mind or Big Self (or "no mind" even--as the mind or field of
attention is boundless). This is an experience, not a just a thought though.
The computer is within my own mind or within the space of awareness. This
space of awareness is me--that is the self does not stop at the skin of the
body, but includes the whole perceptual field--it is that whole field. So,
the me is the whole of experience, not just a thought-based me, or the me as
an isolated perception of self. Most people think that the mind is confined
to their head--so they are cut-off from the world in this sense.

In fact, as I look around the room, it seems that everything is included in
this space and there is no separation between me and the space. So, is this
Bill's Observer Self? Is is basically empty of any permanent-unchanging
qualities or perceptions.

What does PCT have to say about this? Would it accommodate this
understanding or be at oods with it? In Zen, this understanding is equated
with being "awake." Based on this, anything that happens in the field of
awareness happens to you in the widest sense of you.

Regards...Jason Gosnell

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Nickols [mailto:nickols@WORLDNET.ATT.NET]
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 11:54 AM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: reinforcement

Regarding the use of "reinforcing" in Jason's message below...

I went to the relational frame web site and took the first part of the
two-part tutorial. It contains the remark about Yvonne laughing "in a
reinforcing" manner.

I didn't see the humor but then I'm a sourpuss and a grump. It seemed to me
that "reinforcing" was being used in an ordinary sense (although in what
purports to be a technical tutorial). So, I read "Yvonne laughed in a
reinforcing manner" as the equivalent of saying "Yvonne laughed in an
approving manner." And, approval, of course, might or might not serve as
reinforcement, depending on who's getting and giving it and some other
factors as well.

I'll complete the second part of the tutorial sometime this week and I might
or might not comment on it here. For now, the main relevance to PCT seems
to be that some of incidents and processes described might account for how
some reference conditions (or is it "signals"?) get established. It is
otherwise a fairly behaviorist look at matters. At least that's way it
looks to me right now.

Regards,

Fred Nickols
www.nickols.us
nickols@att.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Jason Gosnell
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 4:45 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: reinforcement

From Jason Gosnell [06.04.05 1540CST]

Well, it has finally happened to me...I no longer understand behaviorism.
I
have not been in touch with it for some time and have begun to study
something called Relational Frame Theory. It is on the web with a tutorial
to it if you are interested. Basically, it has to do with how the mind
operates and it is derived from behaviorism to some degree. I hope someone
is into the cognitive stuff enough to look at it and tell me what they
think.

As I was doing the tutorial, it states..."Dermont does [such and such] and
Yvonne laughed in a reinforcing manner." I busted out laughing because I
could not understand what that meant. What does it mean to a behaviorist
that someone laughs at me in a reinforcing manner? I don't understand it
anymore.

Now...why is my mind blown? It may be PCT study, but even Zen and Buddhism
which I study would find this odd I think. Anyway, I no longer know what
reinforcement really means--although I thought I used to.

So, would someone remind me as to what the issue PCT takes with
behaviorism
is and why I am having difficulty understanding the old lingo? I suspect
that it is because behaviorism acts as if there is a world out there and a
me in here and so I see things as causing my behavior. Yvonne laughing in
a
very "reinforcing" way though actually has little to do with Yvonne. Yes,
Yvonne is there in the field of awareness, she is a kind of perception for
me, but "reinforcing" to me now just means that I liked what I heard--or I
appreciated that experience--or I experienced something that I wanted to
experience--or something along these lines. I already am organized in some
manner to like that laugh. So, now I don't get it.

Sincerely,

Jason Gosnell

"To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be
enlightened by all things."
  --Dogen

All electronic mail communications originating from or transmitted to
Bridgeway Center, Inc. are subject to monitoring. This message and the
information contained in it, which may consist of electronic data
attachments, are the confidential and proprietary communications of
Bridgeway Center, Inc. and are intended to be received only by the
individual or individuals to whom the message has been addressed If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please take notice
that any use, copying, printing, forwarding or distribution of this message,
in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error, please immediately notify the Bridgeway Center, Inc. Privacy Officer
at (850) 833-7540 and/or forward the message to hipaa@bridgeway.org and
delete or destroy all copies of this message.

From Jason Gosnell (06.06.05 1545CST)

I agree with all of this.

Yvonne has no idea that she is reinforcing this fellow--she is just
laughing. The experience is totally within this guy's realm of experience
and the pleasant feeling is totally his. Yvonne doesn't really determine his
experience at all. She may be a perception in his field of perception, but
everything else is determined by his own mental history, etc.

He may say later..."thanks for laughing in such a reinforcing manner" and
she says "what do you mean, I was making fun of you not praising you" or "I
was laughing becuase I thought of a joke someone told me about your nose and
I just took it all in in that moment." So, now where is the reinforcer out
there? It was just his experience-interpretation of the moment that really
mattered, not Yvonne's intention or experience herself. Not for him.

Jason

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Nickols [mailto:nickols@WORLDNET.ATT.NET]
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 11:54 AM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: reinforcement

Regarding the use of "reinforcing" in Jason's message below...

I went to the relational frame web site and took the first part of the
two-part tutorial. It contains the remark about Yvonne laughing "in a
reinforcing" manner.

I didn't see the humor but then I'm a sourpuss and a grump. It seemed to me
that "reinforcing" was being used in an ordinary sense (although in what
purports to be a technical tutorial). So, I read "Yvonne laughed in a
reinforcing manner" as the equivalent of saying "Yvonne laughed in an
approving manner." And, approval, of course, might or might not serve as
reinforcement, depending on who's getting and giving it and some other
factors as well.

I'll complete the second part of the tutorial sometime this week and I might
or might not comment on it here. For now, the main relevance to PCT seems
to be that some of incidents and processes described might account for how
some reference conditions (or is it "signals"?) get established. It is
otherwise a fairly behaviorist look at matters. At least that's way it
looks to me right now.

Regards,

Fred Nickols
www.nickols.us
nickols@att.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Jason Gosnell
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 4:45 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: reinforcement

From Jason Gosnell [06.04.05 1540CST]

Well, it has finally happened to me...I no longer understand behaviorism.
I
have not been in touch with it for some time and have begun to study
something called Relational Frame Theory. It is on the web with a tutorial
to it if you are interested. Basically, it has to do with how the mind
operates and it is derived from behaviorism to some degree. I hope someone
is into the cognitive stuff enough to look at it and tell me what they
think.

As I was doing the tutorial, it states..."Dermont does [such and such] and
Yvonne laughed in a reinforcing manner." I busted out laughing because I
could not understand what that meant. What does it mean to a behaviorist
that someone laughs at me in a reinforcing manner? I don't understand it
anymore.

Now...why is my mind blown? It may be PCT study, but even Zen and Buddhism
which I study would find this odd I think. Anyway, I no longer know what
reinforcement really means--although I thought I used to.

So, would someone remind me as to what the issue PCT takes with
behaviorism
is and why I am having difficulty understanding the old lingo? I suspect
that it is because behaviorism acts as if there is a world out there and a
me in here and so I see things as causing my behavior. Yvonne laughing in
a
very "reinforcing" way though actually has little to do with Yvonne. Yes,
Yvonne is there in the field of awareness, she is a kind of perception for
me, but "reinforcing" to me now just means that I liked what I heard--or I
appreciated that experience--or I experienced something that I wanted to
experience--or something along these lines. I already am organized in some
manner to like that laugh. So, now I don't get it.

Sincerely,

Jason Gosnell

"To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be
enlightened by all things."
  --Dogen

All electronic mail communications originating from or transmitted to
Bridgeway Center, Inc. are subject to monitoring. This message and the
information contained in it, which may consist of electronic data
attachments, are the confidential and proprietary communications of
Bridgeway Center, Inc. and are intended to be received only by the
individual or individuals to whom the message has been addressed If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please take notice
that any use, copying, printing, forwarding or distribution of this message,
in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error, please immediately notify the Bridgeway Center, Inc. Privacy Officer
at (850) 833-7540 and/or forward the message to hipaa@bridgeway.org and
delete or destroy all copies of this message.

And what you've written, as well as what Bryan and I wrote, points to the
enduring value of Rashomon.

Gee, has anyone ever reviewed Rashomon from a PCT perspective?

Regards,

Fred Nickols
www.nickols.us
nickols@att.net

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Jason Gosnell
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 4:50 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: reinforcement

From Jason Gosnell (06.06.05 1545CST)

I agree with all of this.

Yvonne has no idea that she is reinforcing this fellow--she is just
laughing. The experience is totally within this guy's realm of experience
and the pleasant feeling is totally his. Yvonne doesn't really determine
his
experience at all. She may be a perception in his field of perception, but
everything else is determined by his own mental history, etc.

He may say later..."thanks for laughing in such a reinforcing manner" and
she says "what do you mean, I was making fun of you not praising you" or
"I
was laughing becuase I thought of a joke someone told me about your nose
and
I just took it all in in that moment." So, now where is the reinforcer out
there? It was just his experience-interpretation of the moment that really
mattered, not Yvonne's intention or experience herself. Not for him.

Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Nickols [mailto:nickols@WORLDNET.ATT.NET]
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 11:54 AM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: reinforcement

Regarding the use of "reinforcing" in Jason's message below...

I went to the relational frame web site and took the first part of the
two-part tutorial. It contains the remark about Yvonne laughing "in a
reinforcing" manner.

I didn't see the humor but then I'm a sourpuss and a grump. It seemed to
me
that "reinforcing" was being used in an ordinary sense (although in what
purports to be a technical tutorial). So, I read "Yvonne laughed in a
reinforcing manner" as the equivalent of saying "Yvonne laughed in an
approving manner." And, approval, of course, might or might not serve as
reinforcement, depending on who's getting and giving it and some other
factors as well.

I'll complete the second part of the tutorial sometime this week and I
might
or might not comment on it here. For now, the main relevance to PCT seems
to be that some of incidents and processes described might account for how
some reference conditions (or is it "signals"?) get established. It is
otherwise a fairly behaviorist look at matters. At least that's way it
looks to me right now.

Regards,

Fred Nickols
www.nickols.us
nickols@att.net

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
> [mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Jason Gosnell
> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 4:45 PM
> To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
> Subject: reinforcement
>
> From Jason Gosnell [06.04.05 1540CST]
>
> Well, it has finally happened to me...I no longer understand
behaviorism.
> I
> have not been in touch with it for some time and have begun to study
> something called Relational Frame Theory. It is on the web with a
tutorial
> to it if you are interested. Basically, it has to do with how the mind
> operates and it is derived from behaviorism to some degree. I hope
someone
> is into the cognitive stuff enough to look at it and tell me what they
> think.
>
> As I was doing the tutorial, it states..."Dermont does [such and such]
and
> Yvonne laughed in a reinforcing manner." I busted out laughing because I
> could not understand what that meant. What does it mean to a behaviorist
> that someone laughs at me in a reinforcing manner? I don't understand it
> anymore.
>
> Now...why is my mind blown? It may be PCT study, but even Zen and
Buddhism
> which I study would find this odd I think. Anyway, I no longer know what
> reinforcement really means--although I thought I used to.
>
> So, would someone remind me as to what the issue PCT takes with
> behaviorism
> is and why I am having difficulty understanding the old lingo? I suspect
> that it is because behaviorism acts as if there is a world out there and
a
> me in here and so I see things as causing my behavior. Yvonne laughing
in
> a
> very "reinforcing" way though actually has little to do with Yvonne.
Yes,
> Yvonne is there in the field of awareness, she is a kind of perception
for
> me, but "reinforcing" to me now just means that I liked what I heard--or
I
> appreciated that experience--or I experienced something that I wanted to
> experience--or something along these lines. I already am organized in
some
> manner to like that laugh. So, now I don't get it.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jason Gosnell
>
> "To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be
> enlightened by all things."
> --Dogen
>
>
All electronic mail communications originating from or transmitted to
Bridgeway Center, Inc. are subject to monitoring. This message and the
information contained in it, which may consist of electronic data
attachments, are the confidential and proprietary communications of
Bridgeway Center, Inc. and are intended to be received only by the
individual or individuals to whom the message has been addressed If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please take notice
that any use, copying, printing, forwarding or distribution of this
message,
in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error, please immediately notify the Bridgeway Center, Inc. Privacy
Officer
at (850) 833-7540 and/or forward the message to hipaa@bridgeway.org and
delete or destroy all copies of this message.

[From Rick Marken (2005.06.06.1415)]

Jason Gosnell (06.06.05 1255CST) --

Also, Rick indicated that PCT assumes as does behaviorism that there is a me
in here and a world out there and so there seems to be two separate
processes--or totally separate...

In Zen, the whole space of awareness or attention is mind...
The computer is within my own mind or within the space of awareness...

What does PCT have to say about this? Would it accommodate this
understanding or be at oods with it?

I think what you are saying is that, according to Zen, all we know is what
we perceive (or experience). So there is really no distinction between me
and the outside world; it's all one thing: me (my experience, anyway). If
so, I think PCT agrees with this.

According to PCT, all we know for sure is our own experience. The idea that
there is a distinction between "me in here" (my experience) and a "world
out there" (that is experienced) is part of the PCT _model_, it is not
something we experience. The PCT model assumes an "inside me" (a control
organization consisting of perceptual functions, comparators and output
functions) and an "outside me" (the world of physical variables as currently
modeled in physics).

This model accounts for our experiences -- including our experience of
"reflexive reactions" and "control by reinforcement" -- extremely well. So
we can tentatively (and, I think, pretty confidently) accept the idea that
all organisms (including ourselves) are made up of a "me in here" (a
hierarchy of control systems) and a world out there (physical variables such
as forces, masses and light waves).

Best regards

Rick

···

---

Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

--------------------

This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and
may contain privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use,
disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies
of the original message.

From Jason Gosnell (06.06.05 1625CST)

OK--thanks Rick. I see your points. I think that's right. As a theory it
makes sense to treat ourselves as these organizing systems in a world out
there. Our direct experience is different as we experience it. Still, it
makes sense to study ourselves in the theoretical way to. Buddhism is
actually similar to PCT in some ways, but it is more sketchy so a scientist
would probably be dissatisfied with it. The attempt at a model which
approximates PCT somewhat is the 12 Interdependent Links of Causation...I'll
see if I can find a decent version of it and post it in brief form.

Regards...Jason

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Marken [mailto:marken@MINDREADINGS.COM]
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 5:14 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: reinforcement

[From Rick Marken (2005.06.06.1415)]

Jason Gosnell (06.06.05 1255CST) --

Also, Rick indicated that PCT assumes as does behaviorism that there is a

me

in here and a world out there and so there seems to be two separate
processes--or totally separate...

In Zen, the whole space of awareness or attention is mind...
The computer is within my own mind or within the space of awareness...

What does PCT have to say about this? Would it accommodate this
understanding or be at oods with it?

I think what you are saying is that, according to Zen, all we know is what
we perceive (or experience). So there is really no distinction between me
and the outside world; it's all one thing: me (my experience, anyway). If
so, I think PCT agrees with this.

According to PCT, all we know for sure is our own experience. The idea that
there is a distinction between "me in here" (my experience) and a "world
out there" (that is experienced) is part of the PCT _model_, it is not
something we experience. The PCT model assumes an "inside me" (a control
organization consisting of perceptual functions, comparators and output
functions) and an "outside me" (the world of physical variables as currently
modeled in physics).

This model accounts for our experiences -- including our experience of
"reflexive reactions" and "control by reinforcement" -- extremely well. So
we can tentatively (and, I think, pretty confidently) accept the idea that
all organisms (including ourselves) are made up of a "me in here" (a
hierarchy of control systems) and a world out there (physical variables such
as forces, masses and light waves).

Best regards

Rick
---

Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

--------------------

This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and
may contain privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use,
disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies
of the original message.
All electronic mail communications originating from or transmitted to
Bridgeway Center, Inc. are subject to monitoring. This message and the
information contained in it, which may consist of electronic data
attachments, are the confidential and proprietary communications of
Bridgeway Center, Inc. and are intended to be received only by the
individual or individuals to whom the message has been addressed If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please take notice
that any use, copying, printing, forwarding or distribution of this message,
in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error, please immediately notify the Bridgeway Center, Inc. Privacy Officer
at (850) 833-7540 and/or forward the message to hipaa@bridgeway.org and
delete or destroy all copies of this message.

[From Bill Powers (2005.06.p6 MDT)]

Jason Gosnell [06.06.05 1255CST] --

Thanks for the interesting review of the Zen stuff. It agrees pretty much with my view, or rather it's the other way around, I guess (the Buddha got there first). The Eastern philosophers seem to have stopped there, though. Once you've settled the question about what reality is (it's what we experience directly as opposed to what we say or think about it), the question becomes what to do next. My answer to that is to work on models about the parts of reality I can't experience directly, something you don't hear a lot about in Zen. We have a physics/chemistry model for the nonliving parts of that reality, and various models like PCT which attempt to fill in what we can't observe about the functions of the human observer and actor. with which we try to construct an understanding of all of our experience. Why? Because the way I'm constructed, it seems, that is the most interesting possible thing to do. I choose to do it, and feel no need to justify it. So I guess that's the Big Self saying that.

Best,

Bill P.

From Jason Gosnell (06.06.05 1735CST)

Thanks for the feedback Bill. Just to let you know--following that level of
realization, which is understood to be ongoing and deepening, one of the Zen
points is to make your realization personal--to make it live in the world in
your particular way. So, I guess you've been doing just that.

Regards...Jason

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Powers [mailto:powers_w@FRONTIER.NET]
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 5:44 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: reinforcement

[From Bill Powers (2005.06.p6 MDT)]

Jason Gosnell [06.06.05 1255CST] --

Thanks for the interesting review of the Zen stuff. It agrees pretty much
with my view, or rather it's the other way around, I guess (the Buddha got
there first). The Eastern philosophers seem to have stopped there, though.
Once you've settled the question about what reality is (it's what we
experience directly as opposed to what we say or think about it), the
question becomes what to do next. My answer to that is to work on models
about the parts of reality I can't experience directly, something you don't
hear a lot about in Zen. We have a physics/chemistry model for the
nonliving parts of that reality, and various models like PCT which attempt
to fill in what we can't observe about the functions of the human observer
and actor. with which we try to construct an understanding of all of our
experience. Why? Because the way I'm constructed, it seems, that is the
most interesting possible thing to do. I choose to do it, and feel no need
to justify it. So I guess that's the Big Self saying that.

Best,

Bill P.
All electronic mail communications originating from or transmitted to
Bridgeway Center, Inc. are subject to monitoring. This message and the
information contained in it, which may consist of electronic data
attachments, are the confidential and proprietary communications of
Bridgeway Center, Inc. and are intended to be received only by the
individual or individuals to whom the message has been addressed If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please take notice
that any use, copying, printing, forwarding or distribution of this message,
in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error, please immediately notify the Bridgeway Center, Inc. Privacy Officer
at (850) 833-7540 and/or forward the message to hipaa@bridgeway.org and
delete or destroy all copies of this message.

[From Rick Marken (2005.06.06.1610)]

Bill Powers (2005.06.p6 MDT)--

Once you've settled the question about what reality is (it's what we
experience directly as opposed to what we say or think about it), the
question becomes what to do next. My answer to that is to work on models
about the parts of reality I can't experience directly, something you don't
hear a lot about in Zen... I choose to do it, and feel no need
to justify it.

I see you have chosen to try to understand experience by building models.

Good for you!

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

--------------------

This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and
may contain privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use,
disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies
of the original message.

[From Rick Marken (920605 10:00)]

Oded Maler (920605) says:

Suppose an agent is in a closed-loop relation with the "world".
No matter how it is organized inside, what it perceives of the
world results in the "actions" it performs (e.g., muscle contraction)

Maybe you're right Gary -- it is impossible.

In a negative feedback closed loop, perceptions are CONTROLLED BY actions,
they do NOT cause actions. Actions are "caused" by disturbances to
controlled perceptions. Believe it or not.

which again, cause certain things in the world, affect the agent's
perceptions and so on.

Which is why what I said above is true.

"Reinforcement" in this context speaks about
how this perception-->action map changes with the history of interaction.

Right. But since there is no perception/action map that has anything to
do with the behavior of a control system, it sort of obviates the
importance of "reinforcement" -- in fact, it suggests that reinforcement
( in the sense of changing the probability of a particular output
given a particular input) doesn't exist for control systems.

If the current map (no matter how realized) fails to achieve the agent's
goals (it does not make some high-level reference signal meet their
corresponding perceptions, if you like) then it should somehow change.

This works for an open-loop SR system. If this is the kind of system
machine leaning types deal with (it is) then reinforcement works just
fine. It does NOT work when a system is in a negative feedback situation
with respect to it's environment. To see why (experimentally and
quantitatively -- no metaphysics necessary) I suggest that you read
the papers in chapter 4 of my "Mind Readings" book.

For the purpose of building machines this is completely legitimate
and it has no psychological implications/assumptions more than there
are biological ones in "genetic" algorithms. It is just an engineering
heuristics that might work or not in certain (real or simulated)
situations.

Yes, and that heuristic only works for open loop machines -- finite state
automata, for example, the most popular machines on the machine learning
circuit. Control systems are not finite state automata.

Best regards

Rick

···

**************************************************************

Richard S. Marken USMail: 10459 Holman Ave
The Aerospace Corporation Los Angeles, CA 90024
E-mail: marken@aero.org
(310) 336-6214 (day)
(310) 474-0313 (evening)

[From Bruce Abbott (970817.0135 EST)]

Bill Powers (970816.1007 MDT) --

They say that when one cannot answer an opponent's argument, a good approach
is to attack the way he presents it -- the words he uses, the way he
constructs his sentences. It diverts attention from the real issue.

Let's cut to the chase. You know what I am asserting (whether or not you
like the way I chose to say it), because I took pains to explain what I did
and did not mean by my words. Do you explicitly and categorically deny the
validity of the explanation I presented, showing how the empirical phenomena
of reinforcement can be accounted for by control theory? I'd really like to
know.

Regards,

Bruce

[From Bill Powers (970817.0720 MDT)]

Bruce Abbott (970817.0135 EST)--

They say that when one cannot answer an opponent's argument, a good approach
is to attack the way he presents it -- the words he uses, the way he
constructs his sentences. It diverts attention from the real issue.

I hope that none of these reasons applies to my post.

Let's cut to the chase. You know what I am asserting (whether or not you

like the way I chose to say it), because I took pains to explain what I did
and did not mean by my words. Do you explicitly and categorically deny the
validity of the explanation I presented, showing how the empirical phenomena
of reinforcement can be accounted for by control theory? I'd really like to
know.

Of course I do not deny that your explanation of operant behavior and
learning in terms of control theory is correct; I know you understand it
and I have said so repeatedly.

What you are asking of me, however, is like asking Lavoisier to accept an
explanation of combustion that might have been offered by Priestley to show
that the phlogiston explanation handles all the same facts that oxygen
theory covers, but from a different point of view, given only a few special
definitions of terms. In that case I do not think that Lavoisier would have
accepted the explanation. He would have said that no matter how well
phlogiston theory might be able to explain combustion, if we understand its
terminology in carefully-selected ways, it is still wrong. Phlogiston does
not exist.

And that is what I am saying. No matter what special way you use your
language, hedging it about with disclaimers about not meaning causality and
insisting on strictly operational definitions, reinforcement still does not
exist. There is no special physical effect of a food pellet _or_ a
contingency that reinforces the tendency to perform any particular
behavior. Reinforcement does not exist.

To demonstrate to me how reasonable the reinforcement interpretation is,
you presented, in the post previous to the one I'm answering, an imaginary
scenario in which the contingency was turned on and off, while the behavior
involved with it appeared and disappeared. This is how you imagined the
reinforcing effect would be observed. But you haven't been paying
attention: the control theory prediction is not like the reinforcement
prediction. Control theory predicts that when you remove the contingency,
the behavior will not die out; instead, it will redouble, becoming more and
more energetic as the animal attempts to produce the food pellets. If you
then turn the contingency back on, the behavior will decrease again, back
to its former level or thereabouts. Dennis Delprato and Chris Cherpas, both
knowledgeable in this field, offered corroborating evidence for this
prediction of PCT, contrary to the imagined experiment you used to "prove"
your case. This effect is, apparently, well-known -- but ignored.

Not only is the concept of reinforcement itself a mistaken interpretation
of what is observed, it doesn't even qualify as a description of the
observations. In many, many instances, it predicts the opposite of what is
observed. As I pointed out, Skinner himself took advantage of this
"anomalous" effect to shape the pecking rates of birds to extremely high
rates sustained for long periods of time, not by giving them large amounts
of reinforcement, but by progressively _reducing_ the amount of
reinforcement produced by the pecking. He was using this method not to test
the theory of reinforcement, but to demonstrate the degree of his control
over the behavior of the pigeons. Nevertheless, it _was_ a test of the
theory of reinforcement. If Skinner had not been obsessed with
demonstrating his control over the pigeons, he might have realized that he
had just disproven his own basic rule of reinforcement: that an increment
in reinforcement generates an increment in the reinforced behavior.

You minimize my objections to the way you are saying things, as if I have
some idiosyncratic aversion to some choices of words that are just as good
as others. But what if you wanted to say z= x*y, and you wrote "z = x/y?"
Is one way of expressing this relation just as good as any other? If you
say, in one phrase, that the consequence of behavior reinforces the
behavior, and in the next, within the same sentence, that the _contingency_
reinforces the behavior, are those two statements just different ways of
saying the same thing? To you, they may be, but to me they are not. To me,
such shifts indicate that you don't think in terms of rigorous definitions
that always stay the same within a single scientific argument, but in a
fluid way that accomodates itself to whatever is uppermost in your mind as
you speak.

I consider verbal arguments (of any consequence) to be subject to the same
requirements we place on mathematical arguments or that computers place on
the construction of programs. When you define terms, they must retain
exactly the same definitions whenever they are used, without any exceptions
whatsoever. They must not allow for any alternative interpretations with
changes of context. If you say that reinforcement is what food pellets do
to behavior, then you can't turn around and say it is what contingencies do
to behavior. If an increment in reinforcement is supposed to produce an
increment in behavior, then it may NEVER produce a decrement in behavior,
under any circumstances, and if presented, it must ALWAYS produce an
increment in behavior. To demand any less of this concept is to render it
trivial, or to say it was wrongly defined from the start. What good does it
do to say, "reinforcements maintain behavior, except when they have no
effect or suppress it?"

The only reason I bother to continue with this discussion is that I know
you are perfectly capable of consistent logical thinking. You do do
mathematics, and you write excellent programs. You would never substitute
the name of a function for the name of a variable in a computer program.
You would never write z := x/y when you meant z = x*y -- or if you did, you
would quickly correct your own mistake. It's only when presenting verbal
arguments intended to preserve the heritage of radical behaviorism that you
abandon these rigorous ways of thinking and complain that I am quibbling
over words.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Abbott (970817.1250 EST)]

Bill Powers (970817.0720 MDT) --

Bruce Abbott (970817.0135 EST)

I've been puzzling over your two responses to my post on the relationship
between the empirical phenomena of reinforcement and control theory, and
think I know where the difficulty is. I'll try to make this clear in my
replies to key comments from your 970817.0720 post.

Of course I do not deny that your explanation of operant behavior and
learning in terms of control theory is correct; I know you understand it
and I have said so repeatedly.

Good. In other words, we have no disagreement about the _explanation_.

What you are asking of me, however, is like asking Lavoisier to accept an
explanation of combustion that might have been offered by Priestley to show
that the phlogiston explanation handles all the same facts that oxygen
theory covers, but from a different point of view, given only a few special
definitions of terms. In that case I do not think that Lavoisier would have
accepted the explanation. He would have said that no matter how well
phlogiston theory might be able to explain combustion, if we understand its
terminology in carefully-selected ways, it is still wrong. Phlogiston does
not exist.

I am not talking about anything like Phlogiston, which was a (as it turned
out, mythical) substance. I am talking about a set of empirical phenomena
which have been _labeled_ as "reinforcement," "punishment," and
"establishing operation."

And that is what I am saying. No matter what special way you use your
language, hedging it about with disclaimers about not meaning causality and
insisting on strictly operational definitions, reinforcement still does not
exist. There is no special physical effect of a food pellet _or_ a
contingency that reinforces the tendency to perform any particular
behavior. Reinforcement does not exist.

Yes, Bill, the magical "special physical effect," a theoretical concept
sometimes appealed to in order to _explain_ the empirical phenomenon of
reinforcement, does not exist. I keep telling you that I am not talking
about this concept, but you don't seem to be listening.

The problem is that the same term, "reinforcement," has been used both as a
label for an empirical phenomenon and (in a different way) as a mechanism
that is supposed to explain the empirical phenomenon. I am not responsible
for this potentially confusing state of affairs, but I have tried hard to be
clear about which "reinforcement" I am talking about. This is why I keep
using the phrase "empirical phenomenon of reinforcement" rather than just
saying "reinforcement."

Unfortunately, you keep insisting (even against my protests) that I am
referring to the mechanism rather than to the phenomenon. I can see how
incoherent my words must seem from this perspective, but that is your
problem, not mine.

To review, the empirical phenomenon to be explained is this:

1. When a rat has been deprived of food and given the opportunity to earn
food by pressing a lever, the rat acquires lever-pressing behavior and
presses the lever at a relatively high rate.

2. When the contingency between lever-pressing and food delivery is broken,
then after some time has passed one will observe that a high rate of lever
pressing is no longer being maintained. When the contingency is
reestablished, lever-pressing again increases in frequency.

We shall call the observed increased rate of lever pressing in the
contingency phase, relative to the contingency-absent (baseline) phase,
"phenomenon X." We shall say that we have observed "phenomenon X" when the
rate of lever pressing is higher during the contingency phase than during
the baseline phase.

We also observe that phenomenon X is observed under the test conditions
described above only when the rat has been without food for some time; this
turns out to be a prerequisite for observing phenomenon X when lever
pressing delivers food pellets. We shall call this condition "prerequisite
Y." The task before us is to explain phenomenon X, and to explain why
prerequisite Y is necessary before phenomenon X will be observed.

Because phenomenon X is simply a name given to an observed phenomenon, there
is no point in arguing that it does not exist.

To demonstrate to me how reasonable the reinforcement interpretation is,
you presented, in the post previous to the one I'm answering, an imaginary
scenario in which the contingency was turned on and off, while the behavior
involved with it appeared and disappeared. This is how you imagined the
reinforcing effect would be observed. But you haven't been paying
attention: the control theory prediction is not like the reinforcement
prediction. Control theory predicts that when you remove the contingency,
the behavior will not die out; instead, it will redouble, becoming more and
more energetic as the animal attempts to produce the food pellets. If you
then turn the contingency back on, the behavior will decrease again, back
to its former level or thereabouts. . . .

Your claim is that I have made my case by ignoring the fact that response
rate initially increases immediately after the transition from reinforcement
conditions to extinction conditions. The claim is easily dispatched. Here
is what I said:

Now break the contingency by disconnecting the feeder, so that pressing the
lever no longer produces a food pellet. After a time, we observe that the
rat is no longer pressing the lever at the high rate that had formerly
characterized its performance. In fact, it rarely presses the lever at all.

The phrase "after a time" is there for a reason. There is an initial
increase in the rate or force of responding which is sometimes (but not
always) observed the first time the animal experiences the extinction
condition following reinforcement. It is transient; the steady-state result
is a decline of responding, usually back down to pre-reinforcement levels.

Later in the post, I said this:

Now we disconnect the feeder, thus opening the loop through the environment.
After a time, we observe that lever pressing has essentially ceased. Lever
pressing no longer allows the rat to control its CV, and some higher level
in the rat's system has stepped in to prevent the runaway lever-pressing
that would be expected of a simple one-level control system when its loop
has been opened on the environment side. So, in the steady state, we get
lever pressing when lever pressing produces food, and we do not get lever
pressing when lever pressing does not produce food, the pair of outcomes
which together define the food as a reinforcer.

Note my reference to "runaway lever-pressing," and inclusion once again of
the qualifying phrase "after a time." This is hardly what I would call a
failure on my part to pay attention to the control theory prediction. In
fact, I had to introduce the notion of "some higher-level system" stepping
in to prevent runaway lever-pressing, because runaway lever-pressing is not
what is observed under the procedure by which one tests for the presence of
the reinforcement phenomenon.

I will skip over your comments about word usage as they are entirely off the
mark.

The only reason I bother to continue with this discussion is that I know
you are perfectly capable of consistent logical thinking. You do do
mathematics, and you write excellent programs. You would never substitute
the name of a function for the name of a variable in a computer program.
You would never write z := x/y when you meant z = x*y -- or if you did, you
would quickly correct your own mistake. It's only when presenting verbal
arguments intended to preserve the heritage of radical behaviorism that you
abandon these rigorous ways of thinking and complain that I am quibbling
over words.

I am really afraid that your response to this post is going to be more of
the same, although I hope not. Despite your assertions to the contrary, my
position is consistent and logical. If it does not appear that way to you,
then you might wish to consider the possibility that you do not understand
what I am saying, and try to work from there. That possibility seems to
have been overlooked up to now.

Regards,

Bruce