Responsibility III

[From Rick Marken (991123.0920)]

Marc Abrams (91123.1115) --

You don't have to hold me resposible.

Thanks. I would never really do that anyway.

if I continue to provide you with the same kinds of posts I
know what effect they have on you. I can live with it.

Apparently you can live without taking responsibility for
what had been the unintended side effects of your posts
(my feeling of depression and hopelessness). So you are as
irresponsible as a child who continues to disrupt class
after he has been told about the unintended side effects
of his actions. What would you do with a child who could
"live with" knowing that his actions are having a
disruptive effect?

They are no longer side effects. They are part of the
intended consequences of the CV

So my feelings of depression and hopelessness are now
intended results of your posting actions? Is that what it
means to be be responsible? Is the disruptive child being
responsible when he continues to disrupt knowing that
his actions are a disruption?

Me:

So I am giving you a choice: take immediate responsibility
for that side-effect and control for making me feel happy
and hopeful or go to the nearest RTC room.

Marc Abrams:

It's not your choice to give. It's mine to make.

Which has been my point all along.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

from [ Marc Abrams (91123.1115) ]

[From Rick Marken (991123.0730)]

OK. I take it, then, that you would agree that you should also
be held responsible when you are no longer causing _unknown_
side effects. I am now letting you know that a side effect of
your posts is that they make me feel depressed and hopeless.
I now hold you responsible for that side effect.

You don't have to hold me resposible. if I continue to provide you with the
same kinds of posts I know what effect they have on you. I can live with it.
They are no longer side effects. They are part of the intended consequences
of the CV. I may also choose to lighten up the posts. i don't know what
effect that would have but I would be trying to minimize the hurt and
hopeless feeling. You'll let me know if it's working though :-).

So I am
giving you a choice: take immediate responsibility for that
side-effect and control for making me feel happy and hopeful
or go to the nearest RTC room.

It's not your choice to give. It's mine to make.

Marc

[From Bruce Abbott (991123.1130 EST)]

Rick Marken (991122.0900)

1) The number of unintended consequences of any control
action is large, probably infinite. Any one of these myriad
consequences could be something another person wants the
controlled to take responsibility for.

I agree. However, the number of unintended consequences that a given
individual may actually be held responsible for by others is, relative to
the number possible, small. Most of them fall under the heading of social
rules, which everyone grows up learning -- and generally obeying. Because
they are part of the environment in which the individual develops, it is
likely that the control hierarchy that the person develops will already have
been optimized with their effects and side-effects already taken account of.

2) Taking responsibility for _any_ consequence means setting
up a system to control a perceptual representation of that
consequence. It also implies that the consequence will be
controlled at a particular level. For example, one unintended
consequence of opening the refrigerator door may be a
squeaking sound. One takes responsibility for this consequence
by controlling for it. But "taking responsibility" also implies
controlling the consequence at a particular level. I would
not be seen as "taking responsibility" if I controlled for a
loud squeak; the assumption is that I am "taking responsibility"
when I am controlling the consequence (squeak) at the level
desired by the person wanting me to "take responsibility".

I agree, except for the following: Taking responsibility does not only mean
accepting responsibility for seeing that your actions do not disturb some
variable another person is controlling, it also can mean accepting
responsibility for having disturbed it in the first place. "Rick, you
stepped on my foot!" Rick: "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to."

3) When a person is asked to take control (and set a particular
reference for) any particular unintended consequence of a
control action, they are being asked to set up a new control
system (with a fixed reference for the controlled variable)
in an existing hierarchy of control systems. Based on my models
of hierarchies of control systems, inserting a control system
with a fixed reference into this hierarchy is almost certain
to lead to conflict between control systems. For example, if one
tried to insert the squeak control system (with a reference of
zero, say) into their existing hierarchy of control systems,
it is likely that the actions that had to be taken to keep
the squeak at zero (very slow movement of the door) would
conflict with other systems that are controlling for things
like getting a glass of milk.

Unlike your spreadsheet demo, real people normally are able to quickly and
easily resolve or accommodate to such conflicts, as Chuck Tucker alluded.
As you note, to reduce the intensity of the squeek, you simply open the door
more slowly. This is done by resetting the reference for the speed of
door-opening -- no problem unless a fast speed is required by some
higher-level system (e.g., you're in a hurry). Or, as Chuck Tucker notes,
you can get the can of WD-40 out and oil the squeeky hinge. This eliminates
the conflict, because now opening the door no longer produces the offending
squeek.

The reorganization model seems to imply that _any_ change in the control
hierarchy will have consequences that will require quite a bit of random
reorganization to iron out, but real human beings evidently have much more
efficient methods than random reorganization for accommodating such changes
, as Bill has noted in the past.

4) So my conclusion, based on my understanding of what is
involved in "taking responsibility for unintended consequences
of one's actions" and of Bill's theory of behavior, is that
it is not wise to expect that asking a person to "take
responsibility for the _unintended_ consequences of their
actions" will necessarily increase their power (in terms
of the number of variables they are controlling). In fact,
it is far more likely (given the large number of unintended
consequences that one might want a person to become responsible
for and their arbitrary relationship to that person's existing
control hierarchy) that "taking responsibility for the
_unintended_ consequences of one's actions" is more likely
to reduce one's power (breadth of control) by creating internal
conflict that will reduce one's ability to control variables one
was previously able to control successfully.

Which of these outcomes actually happens in a given situation will depend on
quite a number of factors, probably the most important being whether the
individual being asked to "take responsibility" perceives the request as
reasonable. It would appear that much effort is expended in RTP to foster
that perception in the students.

Regards,

Bruce A.

[From Rick Marken (991123.0930)]

Bruce Gregory (991123.1050 EST)--

What does it mean in Bill's Theory "to hold someone responsible"?

A person who says "I hold you responsible for X" typically means
that they intend to control your behavior using the threat of
punishing consequences. It means "if you do X you will punished"
The goal of the person who says "I hold you responsible for X" is
to make sure that you don't do X or (if you've done it) that
you never do it again.

Me to Marc Abrams:

So I am giving you a choice: take immediate responsibility for
that side-effect and control for making me feel happy and
hopeful or go to the nearest RTC room.

Bruce G.

Sounds coercive to me.

Me too.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Rick Marken (991123.1030)]

Bruce Gregory (991123.1246 EST) --

O.K. What does it mean to "be responsible" in Bill's Theory?

I already told you: "responsible" is an ambiguous word; it's
not a technical term. In some contexts "be responsible" is used
to mean "be the cause of"; in others it is used to mean "be
in control of".

Me to Marc Abrams:

So my feelings of depression and hopelessness are now
intended results of your posting actions? Is that what it
means to be responsible?

Bruce Gregory (991123.1255 EST)

Yes, if I understand Bill's Theory.

This has nothing to do with Bill's theory. This is just
a matter of word use. All Bill's theory does is explain
what's involved in controlling.

To be responsible for X mean's to be controlling for X.

Again, that's one way to define "responsible". It has
nothing to do with Bill's theory. Some people define
responsible (in not so many words) as "controlling a
perception at a _particular level_". So Marc might not
be considered "responsible" by some unless he were
controlling for me feeling happy and hopeful (rather
than depressed and hopeless). All Bill's theory can tell
us is whether Marc is or is not controlling a particular
variable; it doesn't say what _really_ constitutes being
"responsible".

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Rick Marken (991123.1030)]

Me:

So my feelings of depression and hopelessness are now
intended results of your posting actions? Is that what it
means to be be responsible?

Marc Abrams (991123.1253)--

What makes it irresponsible? I have a strong dislike
for what you are doing and I'm expressing it. Could you
show me what you mean in a model? No "in principle" or
"framework" jobs please

You continue to make me feel depressed and hopeless. I
see you have chosen to go to the RTC room.

Me:

Is the disruptive child being responsible when he
continues to disrupt knowing that his actions are
a disruption?

Marc:

Whole different ball of wax and if you can't see
it, I can't show it.

So I'm just supposed to take your word for it that
what you are doing and what a disruptive kid is doing
are a whole different ball of wax? This makes me feel
even more depressed and hopeless. You keep choosing to
go to the RTC and yet you don't go. What's up?

I'm sorry I ever got started in this exchange.

I bet;-)

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (991123.1246 EST)]

Rick Marken (991123.0930)

A person who says "I hold you responsible for X" typically means
that they intend to control your behavior using the threat of
punishing consequences. It means "if you do X you will punished"
The goal of the person who says "I hold you responsible for X" is
to make sure that you don't do X or (if you've done it) that
you never do it again.

O.K. What does it mean to "be responsible" in Bill's Theory? In your
previous post to Marc, you ask "Is the disruptive child being
responsible when he continues to disrupt knowing that his actions are a
disruption?" The word responsible seems to function in a different way
than it does in the expression "to hold you responsible". Are you asking
if the child should "be held responsible" for continuing to disrupt? In
other words, are you asking if coercion is an appropriate response to
continued disruption?

Bruce Gregory

[From Bruce Gregory (991123.1255 EST)]

Rick Marken (991123.0920)

So my feelings of depression and hopelessness are now
intended results of your posting actions? Is that what it
means to be responsible?

Yes, if I understand Bill's Theory. To be responsible for X mean's to be
controlling for X. If Marc's intention is to perceive you feeling
dressed and hopeless as a result of his posts, he is responsible for
seeing you depressed and hopeless. However, to say that you "hold him
responsible" for your depressed and hopeless feelings, is to say that
you intend to coerce him to stop posting in a way that you do not
approve of.

Bruce Gregory

[From Rick Marken (991123.1100)]

Bruce Gregory (991123.1342 EST)--

Just wanted to let you know that an unintended side effect
of whatever you are controlling for is to create the
impression that you are babbling incoherently. No need to
thank me, it's the least I could do.

You don't seem to like being told what you've chosen, do you?

How does it feeeel?:wink:

Best

Bob

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

from [ Marc Abrams (991123.1253) ]

So my feelings of depression and hopelessness are now
intended results of your posting actions? Is that what it
means to be be responsible?

What makes it irresponsible? I have a strong dislike for what you are doing
and I'm expressing it. Could you show me what you mean in a model? No "in
principle" or "framework" jobs please

Is the disruptive child being
responsible when he continues to disrupt knowing that
his actions are a disruption?

Whole different ball of wax and if you can't see it, I can't show it.

Me:

> So I am giving you a choice: take immediate responsibility
> for that side-effect and control for making me feel happy
> and hopeful or go to the nearest RTC room.

Marc Abrams:

> It's not your choice to give. It's mine to make.

Which has been my point all along.

I'm sorry I ever got started in this exchange.

Marc

[From Bruce Gregory (991123.1339 EST)]

Rick Marken (991123.1030)

All Bill's theory can tell
us is whether Marc is or is not controlling a particular
variable; it doesn't say what _really_ constitutes being
"responsible".

Since we are trying to be accurate, I will simply note that as I
understand Bill's Theory, it cannot tell us whether Marc is or is not
controlling a particular variable. _If_ Marc is controlling a particular
variable, Bill's Theory provides a framework in which we can develop a
model to explain _how_ Marc is controlling the variable. In order to
apply Bill's Theory, we first need evidence (the Test) that Marc is
controlling some variable. Otherwise we are simply trying to explain
imaginary data. (I acknowledge that it is often easier to explain
imaginary data than to explain real data.)

Bruce Gregory

[From Bruce Gregory (991123.1342 EST)]

Rick Marken (991123.1030)

You continue to make me feel depressed and hopeless. I
see you have chosen to go to the RTC room.

Just wanted to let you know that an unintended side effect of whatever
you are controlling for is to create the impression that you are
babbling incoherently. No need to thank me, it's the least I could do.

Bruce Gregory

[From Kenny Kitzke (991123.1400)]

<Rick Marken (991123.0730)>

<OK. I take it, then, that you would agree that you should also
be held responsible when you are no longer causing _unknown_
side effects. I am now letting you know that a side effect of
your posts is that they make me feel depressed and hopeless.
I now hold you responsible for that side effect. So I am
giving you a choice: take immediate responsibility for that
side-effect and control for making me feel happy and hopeful
or go to the nearest RTC room.>

I must admit that I perceive you can control for being a genius and a wise
ass at the same time. I do not expect you to be responsible for how that
makes me feel about you or change your behavior one iota since I do not want
to be coercive.

8-))

Your spiritual and romantic PCT friend,

Kenny

[From Rick Marken (991123.1400)]

Me to Marc Abrams:

OK. I take it, then, that you would agree that you should also
be held responsible when you are no longer causing _unknown_
side effects. I am now letting you know that a side effect of
your posts is that they make me feel depressed and hopeless.
I now hold you responsible for that side effect. So I am
giving you a choice: take immediate responsibility for that
side-effect and control for making me feel happy and hopeful
or go to the nearest RTC room.

Kenny Kitzke (991123.1400)--

I must admit that I perceive you can control for being a
genius and a wise ass at the same time. I do not expect you
to be responsible for how that makes me feel about you or
change your behavior one iota since I do not want to be
coercive.

Would that you felt the same way about children.

Since you (and Marc and Bruce G. and probably many others)
feel that my treatment of Marc (giving him the choice of
posting things that make me feel happy and hopeful or
going to the nearest RTC room) is in no way comparable to
the way an RTP teacher is asked to treat disruptive
students, I presume that you are implacably committed
to the notion that "giving a choice" is a respectful way
to deal with children. You may even continue to advocate
this approach as one that is perfectly consistent with
Bill's theory (or with PCT or with reinforcement theory
or with your common sense or whatever).

What I would like to know is what attracted you all (Marc,
Bruce G., Kenny and whomever) to PCT in the first place?
What was it about PCT that made you think that ignoring
another person's intentional nature while saying how
much you "respect" them, forcing that person to do what
you want while saying that you are giving them a "choice"
(behave or go to the RTC) and then saying that the
person "chose" one of the options you provided as though
the person were free to have chosen to do anything else
would be a recommended practice?

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (991123.1613 EST)]

Rick Marken (991123.1100)

You don't seem to like being told what you've chosen, do you?

How does it feeeel?:wink:

Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Are you
babbling incoherently? If this is intentional, feel free to babble away,
I have no problem choosing that. (We have no rules or agreements
regulating babbling, so you won't even be coerced into going to the
RTC.)

Bruce Gregory

[From Bruce Gregory (991123.1741 EST)]

Rick Marken (991123.1400)

What I would like to know is what attracted you all (Marc,
Bruce G., Kenny and whomever) to PCT in the first place?
What was it about PCT that made you think that ignoring
another person's intentional nature while saying how
much you "respect" them, forcing that person to do what
you want while saying that you are giving them a "choice"
(behave or go to the RTC) and then saying that the
person "chose" one of the options you provided as though
the person were free to have chosen to do anything else
would be a recommended practice?

There is such a vast gap between what you are hearing and what I am
saying that it seems we are not speaking a common language. Given this,
it is difficult to believe that anything I might say at this point or in
the future would disabuse you of your belief. You told me that
responsibility is not a technical term in Bill's Theory. Is choice a
technical term in Bill's Theory? If so, could you show me a BT diagram
of choice. Thanks.

Bruce Gregory

[From Bruce Nevin (991123. EST)]

Rick Marken (991123.1400)--

Since you (and Marc and Bruce G. and probably many others)
feel that my treatment of Marc (giving him the choice of
posting things that make me feel happy and hopeful or
going to the nearest RTC room) is in no way comparable to
the way an RTP teacher is asked to treat disruptive
students, I presume that you are implacably committed
to the notion that "giving a choice" is a respectful way
to deal with children.

Did you read Chuck Tucker's post this morning about the negotiations,
agreements, and dialog that precede the "choice" statement in RTP? I'm
referring to his 991123 sent at 08:41 AM 11/23/1999. None of those
negotiations, agreements, and dialog preceded your statement to Marc. Nor
is there an RTP room for him to go to, a teacher to be present there with
him, or an agreed process established for them to get involved with
together while he is there. These differences are so many and so great that
one *could* almost say that your use of a "choice" statement is "in no way
comparable" to its use in RTP. Almost, but not quite, because after all you
are using similar words.

This is not "common sense" or some rival theory of psychology. Negotiation
and agreement and convention are not alien ideas rejected by PCT. I know of
no model of behavioral data involving negotiation, agreement, and
convention, but we have talked about them as things that can in principal
at least be modelled.

  Bruce Nevin

···

At 01:06 PM 11/23/1999 -0800, Richard Marken wrote:

[From Rick Marken (991123.1715)]

Me:

What I would like to know is what attracted you all (Marc,
Bruce G., Kenny and whomever) to PCT in the first place?

Bruce Gregory (991123.1741 EST)

There is such a vast gap between what you are hearing and
what I am saying that it seems we are not speaking a common
language.

Bruce Nevin (991123. EST)--

Did you read Chuck Tucker's post this morning about the
negotiations, agreements, and dialog that precede the
"choice" statement in RTP?

Well, that doesn't quite answer my question... but, maybe
it does. I do love that negotiation, agreement and dialog
stuff. Sounds like PCT to me.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Bruce Gregory (991123.2043 EST)]

Rick Marken (991123.1715)

Well, that doesn't quite answer my question... but, maybe
it does. I do love that negotiation, agreement and dialog
stuff. Sounds like PCT to me.

Am I to infer from your "response" that choice is not well-defined in Bill's
Theory?

Bruce Gregory

[From Bruce Nevin (991123.2105 EST)]

That should have been labelled according to negotiated and agreed-upon
convention, as above, showing that it is from me, not Rick. For the
archivists among us ...

Rick Marken (991123.1715)--

Bruce Nevin (991123. EST)--

Did you read Chuck Tucker's post this morning about the
negotiations, agreements, and dialog that precede the
"choice" statement in RTP?

Well, that doesn't quite answer my question... but, maybe
it does. I do love that negotiation, agreement and dialog
stuff. Sounds like PCT to me.

Do you agree that these are differences between the use of the "choose"
statement in RTP and your use of it with Marc and in imagined examples?

I am not suggesting that this context obviates the coercion that would come
into play if a child would neither go nor stop disrupting. Is it possible
that a child might already have a reference set for going to the RTP under
this circumstance? That this reference could have got set, not by coercion,
but by a great deal of prior negotiation and agreement? That the dialog
preceding the "choose" statement might nudge the child to go up a level
from the immediate conflict, and then to control for that reference?

  Bruce Nevin

···

At 05:12 PM 11/23/1999 -0800, Rick Marken wrote: