[Martin Taylor 950210 17:10]
From Rick Marken (950210.1300)
Rapid turnaround today!
Like you [Bill Powers], I don't believe that there is any responsibility
that people "have."
But this is not what Bill said. Bill said that people DO have the
responsibility of keeping controlled perceptual variables at their reference
levels.
I defer, because I don't think it's worth going back to check whose reading
is correct. Let's leave it that I don't believe any FACTUAL statement
anyone makes about the responsibility anyone else HAS. I don't believe
in any FACTUAL statement about the real world "out there" and that's one
of them. Besides which, the argument tends to become one about words,
not about theories or perceptions. You may use "responsibility" in different
ways from me, and both may use it in different ways at different times.
Let's try do deal with something about which some resolution is possible;
whether someone "HAS responsibility" depends on what you mean by the words.
What I believe in is that I have perceptions that I label as perceptions
of responsibility. Those perceptions have values that range from ones
that I label "no responsibility" to those that I label "complete
responsibility." I would use the maximum value in situations in which
the action (not behaviour) in question was the only influence on the
effect--in other words a pure cause-effect relationship--, AND that action
was part of a control loop that I perceived in another person, for which
the controlled perception was the actual result of the action. In other
words, except when speaking loosely, I would not use "complete responsibility"
to refer to any behaviour that I observed.
People cannot be "given" or "held to" any responsibility selected by
another person.
Didn't I say that?
It is this possibility for potential control that leads to the assignment
(as a perception) of "responsibility" for consequences that were not the
intention of the actor.
You can assign responsibility all you want but it's still your call; I'm
the only person responsible for what I am controlling . Even though I COULD
control certain side effects of my controlling I'd have no idea WHICH ones I
should control in order to make it seem to YOU that I am being "responsible".
Are you trying to disagree with me? I'm not clear in what respect.
But I don't think I ever dealt with "being responsible." That
(and I hesitate to quote Bill P on this again, even though it's his notion)
is a principles-level perception.
I tried to be most explicit about the separation between my perception
of your responsibility and the other aspect--the control of another person,
which you characterize as:
Holding someone responsible for the side effects of their controlling is just
a sneaky way of asking the person to do what he or she cannot possibly do --
control a variable for YOU.
I THINK you are agreeing with me, but I can't be sure. I didn't use words
like "sneaky," since I see it as being quite up-front. If I perceive you
as not seeing yourself as "responsible for an effect" and that creates
an error for me in an ECU with enough gain, I'm going to try to do something
that will allow me to see you as seeing yourself responsible. That's
straight control. Nothing sneaky about it. And it might be effective
and it might not, like any actions that form part of any control loop.
Why do you say that another person cannot possibly control a variable for me?
If I want to perceive a post as being upright, so that I can drive it
into the ground with a mallet, why can't I ask someone "Would you mind
holding this post upright for me?" Am I not controlling my perception
through the agency of another person? Is my helper not controlling a
variable for me?
But the only way to guess intentions correctly, every time, is to use the Test.
Yes, and my question was how you apply The Test in an event that by its
nature cannot be repeated. You've got those two dead people on the sidewalk,
and a damaged lamp-post and a banged-up car, and you've got a driver who
firmly asserts that he intended ONLY to knock down the lamp-post. How
do you apply The Test? And what perceptions are you (policeman) controlling
when you haul the driver off to jail on a charge of "dangerous driving?"
On what grounds would you change the "assignment of responsibility" (i.e.
the court charge) to "murder in the first degree?"
There is, as I said before, and as you reinforce, a world of difference
among three concepts: (1) My perception of your responsibility, (2) My
perception of your perception of your responsibility, and (3) My action
to change your perception of your responsibility.
I do hope I'm still agreeing with your apparent agreement with me.
Martin