[From Rick Marken (920501 17:00)]
Rick here, from riot central.
Spent the day at home today -- work cancelled due to "civic
unrest". Boy, are you social psychologists (and sociologists)
missing some interesting interactions between living control
systems.
I am motivated to begin another thread on social control --
but frankly, I'm a bit shaken now. So let me make some quick
comments on a couple of linguistics posts -- and then R&R for
a night. Suffice it to say that I want to talk about the fact
that people don't think they are controlling other people when
they are. For example, I have heard it said that it is not a
control strategy to give people the option of working or living
in poverty -- it's their choice. I think this is disingenuous;
and ultimately hurtful. But it does sound fair and humane -- not
like control. Just like operant conditioning really -- you can
press the bar or starve, it's your choice. We even can be nicer
and give you many ways not to starve besides pressing the bar;
what could be fairer?
Avery Andrews (920439.1358) says:
Rick Marken (920439 13:20)
But the fact that it [correction] happens AT ALL
is evidence that people do (or, at least, can) control "linguistic"
type variables. People must be controlling many variables at the
same time when they speak (or type).
But it doesn't follow that the processes whereby this kind of conscious
`corrective-control' is achieved have anything much to do with normal
language-use.
I'm not sure I understand. If you mean that the process of
generating language is not a control process, then I heartily
disagree. If you mean that people are probably controlling
different variables than the ones I suggested when they
actually generate language -- then I heartily agree.
Bruce Nevin says:
(BTW, Rick, this is the sort of place to look for control, not in the
enforcement of rules learned in school.)
Same kind of problem I had with Avery -- what do you mean? When
someone enforces rules learned in school, that IS control (or
attempted control). I have tried deperately to use "that" and
"which" properly -- I can't do it but I would control it if I
could (because I want to write papers that follow accepted
grammatical style rules). Control is occurring. So, if you are
saying that the enforcement of grammatical rules learned in
school (by the speaker or hearer) is not an example of control,
then I heartily disagree. If you are saying that when people
speak that are probably not controlling for the rules they learned
in school then I would say -- yeah, probably a lot of the time
what is controlled is not a rule learned in school. But, as we
speak, my daughter is typing a paper for school and I am sure
(I could test it) that she is busy trying to control, as best as
she can, some of those grammatical rules; she will even ask
me (a lousy source) or her mother "how to say something". I
think she is asking me to articulate a program level reference
regarding word order for her. She is controlling.
We control all kinds of stuff about language -- even stuff
we learn about it from linguists (if we want to -- ie. have
a higher level reference that requires doing so).
Hasta luego and may all people be able to control the variables
they need to control.
Rick
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