Robertson's Science and Faith

CSGnet Archive CSG2007
61

[From Bill Powers (2007.12.09.0741 MST)]

Jim Wuwert 2007.12.08.1707 EST

I am with you up
until this point. I believe in the whole “leave the vengeance to
God” I am with you and can agree with that. I think that the U.S.
could have done some things to prevent the conflict with OSAMA–much
could have been done in the Clinton years with diplomacy. Or what about
Ronald Reagan asking Gorbachev to tear down the wall? He just asked. What
if we were to ask OSAMA to please stop? I would like to see that tale
played out. I am open to it. I think I could agree with that based on
what you said above.

What an idea! I started to imagine it – what if, through the World Wide
Web of people speaking freely from their deepest desires, a message arose
from all of us to all of the Muslim world?

“Please don’t hate us, we don’t hate you. Please don’t kill us, we
are not going to kill you. Please don’t believe that our most violent
leaders speak for us, because we don’t believe your most violent leaders
speak for you. We are all human beings living together on one small round
planet. We can make life good for each other, or evil. Let’s choose the
good.”

Imagine either side getting that message from millions of the others.

If there were a God
who could by a simple act of Will cure all the world’s problems, there
would be no need for us human beings, nor would there be any
understandable excuse for God’s behavior. But if the God-viewpoint is
seen as a sketch of an attainable human viewpoint, and if the solutions
to the world’s problems remain the responsibility of the human beings who
created them, then the God-viewpoint is highly relevant.

I believe that God could cure all of the world’s problems and will
someday as mentioned in the book of Revelation. Evil still exists today
because God allows it. It is alll part of a bigger story that I do not
think I will ever fully understand on this side of life. I may catch
glimpses of God’s viewpoint, but I could not ever understand in human
form all the reasons why some things occur. It would be impossible for me
because I am not the creator. I could only know why if he told me because
he is my creator.

Well, here’s a start: could you be mistaken about just how God is
going to cure the world’s problems? Perhaps the cure is already here,
unrecognized. Perhaps it is here in each of us, untapped. Could that be
the Revelation behind all the others? Does God allow evil simply because
evil will not disappear until we stop making it ourselves? Are you just
sitting on your hands and waiting for God to take care of it all? Is that
what God is telling you to do?

I am back with you
here. I believe that the Kingdom of Heaven is within us, if we
acknowledge that Jesus is the way to receiving it. I would agree that
Jesus was trying to teach everyone about systems concept. That is why I
like PCT so much. I feel that it is a reflection of what I already
believe.

But that’s not a very good reason to accept an idea, is it? That would
mean you’re not open to any new ideas – only to the ones you already
believe. If beliefs can’t change and grow, what good is striving for
knowledge, for personal betterment, for a better world? Why should a
belief be unchangeable, as though we always get everything right the
first time (or the last time) we try? I would really not like to think
that the only reason some people have accepted PCT is that it changed
nothing in, and added nothing of value to, their most important ideas. Is
that what you’re telling me it did for you?

Why quibble about whether a God really, truly, exists?
If he didn’t exist, as someone said in French, it would be necessary to
invent him. What matters is the point of view to which we are led when we
try to guess what God would want us to do. That’s where we will find, or
create, the answers.

I am not with you here. I think God does exist, but I will say that
all of us could do better to stop and humble ourselves when we have to
make a choice–by asking God, what would you have me do to help bring the
Kingdom of Heaven here on earth.

I suggest you start by asking God whether he wants you to settle on one
set of truths and never learn any more about the world or the beings who
inhabit it. I suggest that you ask God if you understand Him so perfectly
already that there is no need to question your understanding or increase
it. Ask whether your grasp of how God works inside you is complete and
correct. I think you already know what the answers would be.
Whatever answers you get, I expect that they will appear to you as
thoughts arising in your own mind, from sources of which you know
nothing. If we knew where ideas came from, we wouldn’t have to wait for
them – we’d just go there and get them when we need them. You have a
theory about where some of the ideas come from, but that theory is one of
those ideas, and you don’t actually know where it came from, either.
There is also no clear indication of which ideas that come to you
are generated by your own desires and wishes, and which may have more
validity than that. You must still make that judgment yourself. Even if
you pray for guidance, you must still judge whether the next thought that
occurs is your own, or was put there by God. In the end, you might say
“just as God intended,” you are on your own. You must decide.
That’s what free will is about.

I come to these ways of putting matters from the framework of PCT, not
religion. I know you know that, but I’m just trying to make sure you know
I’m not trying to sneak anything past you. I think my questions and
suggestions make sense, though perhaps not quite the same kind of sense,
from either point of view. What do you think?

Best,

Bill P.

62

Bill wrote :
A wonderful post, Boris. I think it captures both the religious and the
nonreligious view of what life is about for human beings...

Boris wrote :
Hello Bill. Glad to hear from you again.
We all know that the ground of this view is yours :)). I just managed to
simplify it and I'm really glad that you noticed that :)) I also noticed in
me happening some very interesting things. More I understand your theory
(lately I've been reading some other masters of PCT), more I can put it
simply so that people understand the real life power of PCT. It explains
life and it can really give life :))
First simplifying experiances with people are, that it must be done simple
and step by step. I think I understand that every human is a perceptual
unique world, doing what he beleives it's right on the base of controlled
perception. To change his control of perception or "which perception to
control" as Richard once said is a really brave action, although it sounds
very simple.

As we talked last time about Glasser, I think he "saw" the advantage of your
theory in people lives, where it can help people much. We all remember what
he wrote in his "Control Theory".

And as I was talking to him lately he admitted that he read much of you and
learned from you and so on. He answered that there was some kind of
agreement between you and him.

So I answered him in the sense why he doesn't admitt that in public. I also
asked him if he can settle this misunderstanding in using your theory in
gentlemen's way. I also asked him to start naming the real author of ideas
"controlling other people", "reorganization", "comparison", "reducing" and
so on. He didn't answered yet. But "his lady" Harshman (half illiterate) did
answered me, that he is to busy now. I hope I'll get the answer. I hope also
that sooner or latter, he will name the background of his "control point of
view".

Your theory is really sticky, and once somebody get use to it, it's almost
impossible not to hang on it, because I for example find proves for it every
day.
I'm sorry I didn't unswered your very kind message about Glasser last time,
but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't agree with me to do what I did, if I
told you what my intention were about Glasser. Now I did what I did.

Whatever happened and despite distortions Glasser made to your theory, I
must admit that his followers are really helping people. "Control theory" in
simplified way, so that ordinary people can understand it, really help
people understand what's going on in their lives : with bringing up their
children, why somebody is bullying somebody, why teachers are "terorising"
children and so on, mobbing... And when one is aware of what he is doing or
why he/she is a victim of control, people can simply find the counter behavior.

So I think that understanding of something how it works (how living world is
functioning) really help people to get conscious of their actions.
But I know it's difficult to transform scientific language in ordinary. I
hope we'll try more.

By the way. I wouldn't offer Muslim better common life on Earth. I would
offer them speciall edition of PCT. Then they would maybe understand what
they are doing...:))

Best,

Boris

63

From Jim Wuwert 2007.12.09.1406EST

[From Bill Powers (2007.12.09.0741 MST)]

If there were a God who could by a simple act of Will cure all the world’s problems, there would be no need for us human beings, nor would there be any understandable excuse for God’s behavior. But if the God-viewpoint is seen as a sketch of an attainable human viewpoint, and if the solutions to the world’s problems remain the responsibility of the human beings who created them, then the God-viewpoint is highly relevant.

I believe that God could cure all of the world’s problems and will someday as mentioned in the book of Revelation. Evil still exists today because God allows it. It is alll part of a bigger story that I do not think I will ever fully understand on this side of life. I may catch glimpses of God’s viewpoint, but I could not ever understand in human form all the reasons why some things occur. It would be impossible for me because I am not the creator. I could only know why if he told me because he is my creator.

Well, here’s a start: could you be mistaken about just how God is going to cure the world’s problems? Perhaps the cure is already here, unrecognized. Perhaps it is here in each of us, untapped. Could that be the Revelation behind all the others? Does God allow evil simply because evil will not disappear until we stop making it ourselves? Are you just sitting on your hands and waiting for God to take care of it all? Is that what God is telling you to do?

Yes, I could be mistaken and admit that my suggestions for resolutions of the conflict could perhaps inflame the situation rather than help it. I think we agitate evil and I probably do it in my own life in certain situations. I also believe I do need to do my part to help bring about peace in my domain. To do the contrary would be against who I want to be and who I believe my creator created me to be. I may be sitting on my hands sometimes and that is probably not what God is telling me to do.

I am back with you here. I believe that the Kingdom of Heaven is within us, if we acknowledge that Jesus is the way to receiving it. I would agree that Jesus was trying to teach everyone about systems concept. That is why I like PCT so much. I feel that it is a reflection of what I already believe.

But that’s not a very good reason to accept an idea, is it? That would mean you’re not open to any new ideas – only to the ones you already believe. If beliefs can’t change and grow, what good is striving for knowledge, for personal betterment, for a better world? Why should a belief be unchangeable, as though we always get everything right the first time (or the last time) we try? I would really not like to think that the only reason some people have accepted PCT is that it changed nothing in, and added nothing of value to, their most important ideas. Is that what you’re telling me it did for you?

No, I am not saying that. It has changed me. I would agree that in certain situations in life I do have to change my approach if I want to be effective. I liked PCT because I felt that I did not have to sell my soul or compromise my integrity, although I did realize that I was going to have to change some things about me. I think those were probably things I already needed to change based on my faith in God, but was reluctant to change them for whatever reason. I also like it because I think it teases out the need for respect and love towards one another, even if we strongly disagree with someone. That is what keeps me here. I want to be like that with other people, even OSAMA.:slight_smile:

Why quibble about whether a God really, truly, exists? If he didn’t exist, as someone said in French, it would be necessary to invent him. What matters is the point of view to which we are led when we try to guess what God would want us to do. That’s where we will find, or create, the answers.

I am not with you here. I think God does exist, but I will say that all of us could do better to stop and humble ourselves when we have to make a choice–by asking God, what would you have me do to help bring the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth.

I suggest you start by asking God whether he wants you to settle on one set of truths and never learn any more about the world or the beings who inhabit it. I suggest that you ask God if you understand Him so perfectly already that there is no need to question your understanding or increase it. Ask whether your grasp of how God works inside you is complete and correct. I think you already know what the answers would be.

*Well stated. It is always a constant state of improvement and greater understanding. If I don’t approach it this way I fall into complancency and most likely will choose violence over greater understanding. It’ s much easier to be violent and wipe someone out than make an attempt to talk it out or find an amicable resolution. Sometimes you just may need to walk away. *

Whatever answers you get, I expect that they will appear to you as thoughts arising in your own mind, from sources of which you know nothing. If we knew where ideas came from, we wouldn’t have to wait for them – we’d just go there and get them when we need them. You have a theory about where some of the ideas come from, but that theory is one of those ideas, and you don’t actually know where it came from, either. There is also no clear indication of which ideas that come to you are generated by your own desires and wishes, and which may have more validity than that. You must still make that judgment yourself. Even if you pray for guidance, you must still judge whether the next thought that occurs is your own, or was put there by God. In the end, you might say “just as God intended,” you are on your own. You must decide. That’s what free will is about.

In the end here on earth I do have to make the decision whether or not what I heard God say was actually God or not God. I believe that all ideas come from God. I think some people get the wrong ideas and float them out there as God ideas. Abuse and manipulation follows. My appproach is to step back and let God work that out. If I am needed in the situation I think God will make it very apparent to me. I rest it with my faith.

I come to these ways of putting matters from the framework of PCT, not religion. I know you know that, but I’m just trying to make sure you know I’m not trying to sneak anything past you. I think my questions and suggestions make sense, though perhaps not quite the same kind of sense, from either point of view. What do you think?

I agree. Your questions have a way of disarming me and get me reflecting on what I believe with the hope that the two of use could respectfully have a discussion about what we truly believe without resorting to personal attacks or being rude.

The one thing I still question is–the Boook of Revelation states that the believers will be raptured somewhere around the time that a false sense of peace is agreed upon in the Holy Land. There will be peace, but the Anti-Christ will be cutting a deal on the side to rule the earth and control everyone. He will make people take on the mark of the beasst. So, undoubtedly there will still be people here on earth who will not want peace and will not want to work towards a solution of true peace. However, I still believe that it is up to me to do my part to facillitate peace instead of violence. I think that is my role/purpose in life–but I will not be fake about it. I may shut my mouth to help facillitate peace, but I reserve the right to strongly disagree with another’s decision or choice of faith. I will do my best to respect your decision to choose.

Best,

Bill P.

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64

[From Rick Marken (2007.12.09.1145)]

From Jim Wuwert (2007.12.08.1731EST) --

I said:

All in all, it seems to me that it would be a lot easier to be a good
person by just being a good person and not trying to claim that that
goodness was informed by any particular book. Going the book route
just seems like it would always be a source of within person -- to say
nothing of between person -- conflict.

And Jim relies:

Let's stop right here. Isn't this what PCT is all about--within person
conflict. Conflict stems from the internal messages bein played out within.
The book route (i.e. the Bible) is a great route.

In PCT, conflict occurs when two control systems act to keep the same
perceptual variable in two different states. I don't think this is
quite the same as saying conflict stems from "internal messages being
played out within". In the case of the Bible, the kind of conflict I
was thinking of would result from trying to keep a perception of a
rule in two different states: one state specified by your own values
and one state specified by the Bible. Take graven images for example.
The Bible says that making them is one of the top ten no-nos
(actually, it's in the top 2). But most people today -- who are not
trying to distinguish themselves from the neighboring Canaanite tribes
-- don't think there is anything at all wrong with making graven
images. So if you really take the Bible as an important guide to
values, then you would have a serious conflict about praying to images
of Christ, for example. One of your own values says that worshiping
graven images is fine, another, from the Bible, says that worshiping
graven images is about the worst thing you can do. That would be a
conflict becuase you can both worship and not worship a graven image.

I think most people solve this potential conflict by simply
interpreting what the Bible says in a way that is consistent with
their existing values. So the injunction against graven images is
interpreted in a way that is consistent with worshiping them, or it is
simply ignored or treated as being "out ot date".

For example, Kenny Kitzke(2007.12.08) says:

But, I don't know of any two Bible believers (who accept it as the
infallible word of God and His will for His creatures) who agree on what it
says to do in specifics.

Clearly, values don't come from the Bible from the people interpreting
it. Since this is the case, I was asking why people who want to know
what the "right" values are go look for them in a book that is likely
to say many things that conflict with the values they _want_ to have?
Why not just look inside oneself and see what one's values _are_ and
try to go up a level in oneself (using something like MOL) and see
why one has those particular values.

My guess about why people point to the Bible as the source of their
values is because they want to imagine that there is an objective
source of these values -- a source outside of themselves. I think some
people have a very hard time accepting the idea that they themselves
are the source of their values. Fortunately, nowadays, most of these
people think that the external source of values applies only to them.
Things get ugly when people start believing that those externally
given values -- which are, of course, just their own values -- should
apply to everyone. That's when we get inquisitions and religious wars
and persecution (between person conflict). That's why I worry about
people who believe that there is a god out there giving out rules. I
believe that such people are just a hair's breadth away from forcing
others to conform to values that are not universally accepted.

I think the universally accepted values are the one's found in the
laws of every society; laws against murder, stealing, breaking
contracts. The religious wars are over values that are not universally
accepted: heresy, blasphemy , worship of graven images, working on the
sabbath, abortion, homosexuality, etc. The fact is that what the
correct values are have been -- and are still being - worked out by
people: by us. Pointing to a book that says things that often violate
one's own values seems to me to contribute little to advancing human
welfare. It's likely to be (as I said) a source of intra and
interpersonal conflict. But, of course, it's unlikely that I will be
able to persuade anyone who believes in the Bible that this is the
case. So I'll just go out and smoke a cigar;-)

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

65

From Jim Wuwert 2007.12.09.1500EST

Yes, they even have master’s degree program for teachers that is online. Is there anyway that CSG has considered beginning or doing something like this at a different university in the U.S.? Or a doctorate program? And not so you can compete with Glasser, but so that people can study PCT more closely. Then share it in k-12 education. When it is based at a university it shows some legitimacy to educational administrators-the people who would help pay for it or at least cooperate with you doing the program.

Whatever happened and despite distortions Glasser made to your theory, I
must admit that his followers are really helping people. “Control theory” in
simplified way, so that ordinary people can understand it, really help
people understand what’s going on in their lives : with bringing up their
children, why somebody is bullying somebody, why teachers are “terorising”
children and so on, mobbing… And when one is aware of what he is doing or
why he/she is a victim of control, people can simply find the counter behavior.

So I think that understanding of something how it works (how living world is
functioning) really help people to get conscious of their actions.
But I know it’s difficult to transform scientific language in ordinary. I
hope we’ll try more.

By the way. I wouldn’t offer Muslim better common life on Earth. I would
offer them speciall edition of PCT. Then they would maybe understand what
they are doing…:))

Best,

Boris

All e-mail correspondence to and from this address
is subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law,
which may result in monitoring and disclosure to
third parties, including law enforcement.
AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY/AFFIRMATIVE ACTION EMPLOYER

66

Hello Jim !

Jim wrote :
Some of what you say is a little out there for me. I would agree about
respecting another person's faith. I think that many Christians have been
rude to other people who have a different faith.

Boris wrote:
If you agree with respect to other people, then stop controling them with
your faith. Christians have made quite a massacres in history in the name of
God. That's called control of other people by all means, when you want to
change somebody to think like you do. You are all the time in contradiction.
On one hand you try to respect other people faith and on other side, you try
to persuade them how your faith is the ONLY ONE. That's not respect Jim,
that's hypocracy.

Jim wrote :
I cannot agree that there are many ways to heaven and that all faiths are
correct. It is contrary to my personal faith.

Boris wrote :
Are other people somhow different from you, and they can not have their
faith ? Do you understand how human mind and body works ? Do you understand
the PCT theory ? PCT respects your world of your perception. Do you also
respect PCT or you are trying to persuade all of us here that Faith in Jesus
is the only right thing. Don't you understand that you are trying to
conflict people on this forum with intruding them your Faith.

Jim wrote :
However, I can go with respecting and loving others, even if they believe
something contrary to me. It is not my job to beat them over the head with
what I believe nor harrass them with nasty emails or personallly attack them
in public. Respectful is what I aim for.

Boris wrote :
O.K. do it. Respect individuallity of other people and LOVE THEM and stop
persuading them in your ONLY TRUTH.

JIm wrote :
I think there is only one way to have true lasting peace--a relaationship
with Jesus Christ. A faith in Him. But more than anything I think my
relationship with Jesus tells me to tell others about it, respect others,
and also love them.

Boris wrote :
Well Jim I can not imagine that you don't understand you contradiction. You
try to tell others about your Jesus (so you try to persuade them in your
ONLY ONE WAY), and on the other hand you are talking about respect and love.
If you respect people and love them you will let them find their own way in
finding their peace. You will let them their own choice and freedom of
choosing thier way of thinking and reorganizing.

Don't be rude Christian trying to control and conflict others. If people
will not accept your faith, what you will do. Start killing them, like rude
Christians in the past, because other people didn't accept the ONLY TRUTH ?
Don't you see where is conflicting situation ? The real conflict is in the
fact, that Christians are trying to spread the ONLY RELIGION AND FAITH, like
they do it in the past.

Be patient Jim. Try really to respect and love people as they are. Try
really to respect difference between people and their right to choose their
own destiny. Live and let live, Jim.

Best,

Boris