Rosenbleuth, Wiener, and Bigelow

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.04.2016 MDT)]

Attached is a PDF of a 1943 article by the leaders of cybernetics --
and you'll notice that Rosenbleuth is first author. Rosenbleuth was,
I believe, a student of Walter B. Cannon, who coined the term
"homeostasis." It was Rosenbleuth who approached Wiener to tell him
that certain physiological systems were isomorphic to the
servomechanisms then being developed in the new discipline of
control-system engineering. Note the lingering influence of
behaviorism, even as the fundamental tenets were being destroyed.

Best,

Bill P.

BehaviorPurposeTelology.pdf (54.3 KB)

[From Fred Nickols (2009.09.05.0705 EDT)]

Bill:

Thanks for sending along this paper; a fascinating read.

I must confess to a wee bit of confusion regarding output. They define it as a change in the object's surroundings. I've always thought of output as "emitted" so I guess I'll have to ponder that one. Ditto for input, which they define as a change in surroundings that modifies the object. Oh well.

I was struck by their example of a cat predicting the position of a mouse. They seem to be inferring that the cat predicts the mouse's position because it does not run to where the mouse is but to where it will be. I'm not sure that's the case. What comes to mind is Rick's fly-ball catching. I suspect the cat, when chasing a mouse, is controlling for some combination of angle and distance between it and the mouse. I suspect the same is true of hockey players and pucks, despite Wayne Gretzky's claim that "you skate to where the puck will be."

I was a bit put off by the academic/scientific language (I hate stuff that drives me to the dictionary). But, on the whole, a fascinating paper. Thanks again.

···

--
Regards,

Fred Nickols
Managing Partner
Distance Consulting, LLC
nickols@att.net
www.nickols.us

"Assistance at A Distance"
  
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Bill Powers <powers_w@FRONTIER.NET>

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.04.2016 MDT)]

Attached is a PDF of a 1943 article by the leaders of cybernetics --
and you'll notice that Rosenbleuth is first author. Rosenbleuth was,
I believe, a student of Walter B. Cannon, who coined the term
"homeostasis." It was Rosenbleuth who approached Wiener to tell him
that certain physiological systems were isomorphic to the
servomechanisms then being developed in the new discipline of
control-system engineering. Note the lingering influence of
behaviorism, even as the fundamental tenets were being destroyed.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2009.09.05.0835)]

Fred Nickols (2009.09.05.0705 EDT)–

I must confess to a wee bit of confusion regarding output.

Me too. Indeed, I found the whole article to be very hard to read, let alone understand. What I find amazing is that this was the prevailing level of thinking about “purposeful behavior” when Bill Powers came on the scene. And somehow Bill was able to make elegant order out of this confusion, showing, with clear prose and quantitative precision, that purposeful behavior is the control of perceptual variables.

I was struck by their example of a cat predicting the position of a mouse. They seem to be inferring that the cat predicts the mouse’s position because it does not run to where the mouse is but to where it will be. I’m not sure that’s the case. What comes to mind is Rick’s fly-ball catching. I suspect the cat, when chasing a mouse, is controlling for some combination of angle and distance between it and the mouse.

Exactly. One of the interesting things about the baseball catching simulation is that the model fielder appears to be predicting (or anticipating) where the ball will be in the future and running to that predicted place. In fact, there is no prediction going on at all. People (even old-time cyberneticians, apparently) often assume that purpose involves planning (and wishin’ and hopin’ and thinkin’ and prayin’) but that’s just pop (music) psychology; purpose is the control of present perceptions relative to present references.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.05.0932 MDT)]

Fred Nickols (2009.09.05.0705 EDT) --

I must confess to a wee bit of confusion regarding output. They define it as a change in the object's surroundings. I've always thought of output as "emitted" so I guess I'll have to ponder that one. Ditto for input, which they define as a change in surroundings that modifies the object. Oh well.

I was struck by their example of a cat predicting the position of a mouse. They seem to be inferring that the cat predicts the mouse's position because it does not run to where the mouse is but to where it will be. I'm not sure that's the case. What comes to mind is Rick's fly-ball catching. I suspect the cat, when chasing a mouse, is controlling for some combination of angle and distance between it and the mouse. I suspect the same is true of hockey players and pucks, despite Wayne Gretzky's claim that "you skate to where the puck will be."

I agree with your points; remember that engineers at that time (as now, unfortunately) talk about controlled variables as "output", and behaviorists speak of stimulus inputs as events in the environment. Those were the influences working in 1943. And the fact that the great Wayne Gretzky could chase down a puck doesn't guarantee that he understood how he did it. A cat chasing a mouse doesn't have a theory, either.

Has anybody tried the experiment I suggested some time ago? Watch major league baseball, and keep track of (a) the number of times you see a fielder turning his back on a flyball and running to where he thinks it will come down, and (b) the number of such catches that are missed. Most of them are missed, because that strategy is used only when it looks as if the ball is going to sail on overhead out of reach. "Keep your eye on the ball" is what works.

Note that the article discusses purpose correctly in terms of reference levels -- goals.

Best,

Bill P.

Bill,

thank you for this article. there is nothing better than going to the “source”. appreciate all you throw our way, particularly as i continue to pursue an integrated theory of the change processes in family therapy and pct.

best and a good labor day.

gary padover

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