RTP support

[From Bob C.(980629.1150 PT)]

Bill Powers (980629.0323 MDT)

If the only difference in what you do is what you call it, there is no
difference.

You previously defined coercion as coercion = one control system controlling
the behavior of another. If I use the term on the right side of the equation,
what difference does it make to you and why?

Accept that you use coercion, and that you don't like doing it,
but that for the time being you know of no alternative. That way, you'll
keep looking for an alternative.

I do accept that I have controlled others' behavior, and I do look for
alternatives.

Sometimes the only reason that other alternatives work is because there is
force to back them up, like with the last negotiations with Iraq.

If you try to justify what you do by
finding words that make it seem not so bad, you remove some of the
motive for finding other ways of handling the same problems.

Controlling another's behavior is what it is before you put a label on it. I
don't like the word coercion becaus I think it works like a one word negative
sound bite which portrays controlling another's behavior as necessarily bad. I
suspect that this comes from most people associating coercion to the type of
scenario of a self-serving power figure taking advantage of weaker
individuals, but there are many other scenarios in which control of another is
used. For instance, a community often pools resources to stop someone from
doing greedy/exploitive things at the expense of others. Another example is
parents often not letting kids have or do everything they want, and often the
reason that talking/bargaining with the kids works is because they know it can
be backed up with force.

Maybe. All you can really say is that right now you don't know of anything
that would work better. I could agree with that; I don't know anything
better, either. Why be defensive about it? Nobody can do any more than the
best he can do.

I don't think that I am being defensive in the sense of denying my actions,
but I can't really speak for RTP. I do want to support RTP because I don't
perceive most of the coercion posts as intending to help RTP or being very
tactful in this regard.

This, of course, is why we want to find a better way. The "problem
behavior" we see in kids is simply what they have learned to do to defend
themselves against the methods for controlling their behavior that other
people have used on them -- peers, parents, police, social workers, you
name it.

I don't agree that the "problem behavior" is simply to defend against others
control. Maybe it started that way, but it often becomes something else. The
behavior can be a way to get a quick benefit for ones self at the expense of
another.

I do think there are ways to interact with youths who display such behavior in
order to facilitate reorganization toward more mutual behaviors. You can't
let them succeed with their exploitive behaviors or else they will not
reorganize, and this requires force. I could write much on how to facilitate
reorganization with difficult kids, but will only give a very general brief
account here. I can explain the strategies more from a game theoretic view
point than PCT although I think it could be translated. I will only make a
short attempt here. In interacting with the kids they always have choices,
although they are constrained to varying degrees. I realize that I can not
make a choice for them. They set their own references and reorganize
themselves. I always offer win, win mutual interactions with them. When they
chose win,lose, I start to constrain their options more starting with the most
gentle verbal interventions. They always have the option to chose more of a
mutual posture in which case I allow them more freedom. If they are allowed
to get away with win,lose they do not learn because they experience no error.
I don't like to constrain or even restrain them. It takes lots of resources
rather engage in other activities. If the kid has the choice between only a
win, win or lose, lose scenario they learn a lot faster than if they are
allowed win, lose outcomes. I think lose, lose and win, lose scenarios
evenually lead to "decreasing returns" in general ( less control of variables)
as much effort is waisted in conflict. Win, lose events look good in the
short run because they have short term gains, but eventually other control
systems in the environement reciprocate in kind. When I was a counselor
working in a contained milieu I tried in a controlled and merciful way to
accelerate the process by responding to them promptly and not letting their
exploitive strategies work. Many of the youths seemed to reorganize in a more
win, win direction as they experienced the benefits of more mutual
relationships which was often new for them. With the youths I worked with I
don't think it could have been done with out controlling them at times.

Bob C.

···

from my end and the community's end not to mention risk of injury, and I'd

[From Bill Powers (980630.1209 MDT)]

Bob C.(980629.1150 PT)--

Bill:

If the only difference in what you do is what you call it, there is no
difference.

Bob:

You previously defined coercion as coercion = one control system controlling
the behavior of another. If I use the term on the right side of the
equation, what difference does it make to you and why?

None, to me, because I see the words as just different ways of referring to
the same process. The full statement should end " .. by the use of physical
force or the threat of it."

Accept that you use coercion, and that you don't like doing it,
but that for the time being you know of no alternative. That way, you'll
keep looking for an alternative.

I do accept that I have controlled others' behavior, and I do look for
alternatives.

Right. No problem.

If you try to justify what you do by
finding words that make it seem not so bad, you remove some of the
motive for finding other ways of handling the same problems.

Controlling another's behavior is what it is before you put a label on it.

I don't like the word coercion becaus I think it works like a one word
negative sound bite which portrays controlling another's behavior as
necessarily bad.

All you can really say is that right now you don't know of anything
that would work better. I could agree with that; I don't know anything
better, either. Why be defensive about it? Nobody can do any more than the
best he can do.

I don't think that I am being defensive in the sense of denying my actions,
but I can't really speak for RTP. I do want to support RTP because I don't
perceive most of the coercion posts as intending to help RTP or being very
tactful in this regard.

I'm not trying to be tactful, just trying to get our terminology straight
so we can describe what's going on accurately. If someone doesn't want to
call control of another person's behavior through the use or threat of
physical force "coercion," I confess I can't understand why. But if we can
agree on the "control of behavior" definition, I suppose we can be sure
we're referring to the same thing and forget about saying "coercion."

This, of course, is why we want to find a better way. The "problem
behavior" we see in kids is simply what they have learned to do to defend
themselves against the methods for controlling their behavior that other
people have used on them -- peers, parents, police, social workers, you
name it.

I don't agree that the "problem behavior" is simply to defend against others
control. Maybe it started that way, but it often becomes something else.
The behavior can be a way to get a quick benefit for ones self at the

expense >of another.

That's what I'm talking about. Using quick ways to benefit oneself at the
expense of another is something people learn to do to protect themselves
against being controlled by others. A lot of people figure that it's better
to be the controller than the victim, so they try to get control before
someone else can do it to them. Isn't this more or less what you have
learned to do in your relationship with the students? The following, for
instance:

I do think there are ways to interact with youths who display such

behavior in

order to facilitate reorganization toward more mutual behaviors. You can't
let them succeed with their exploitive behaviors or else they will not
reorganize, and this requires force.

I'm not going to comment on the practical worth of your particular way of
dealing with these problems. I don't speak from experience, and you do. I
have learned that when people tell me about some well-organized approach to
human behavior that they have used, and used successfully in their opinion,
it is seldom possible to have a real discussion of PCT with them, because
they aren't talking about problems with their methods that PCT might be
able to help solve. Success stories and scientific evaluation don't go
together very well. I am perfectly happy to listen to your descriptions of
your methods and the results you obtained, but I feel constrained not to
ask any questions that imply anything other than what you believe to be the
truth about your approach. After all, you wouldn't be telling me about it
if you didn't think it was a good approach that produced good results. What
can PCT offer to a successful approach that does everything you want from it?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Nevin (980630. EDT)]

Bill Powers (980630.1209 MDT) to Bob C.(980629.1150 PT)--

If someone doesn't want to
call control of another person's behavior through the use or threat of
physical force "coercion," I confess I can't understand why. But if we can
agree on the "control of behavior" definition, I suppose we can be sure
we're referring to the same thing and forget about saying "coercion."

This might be someone's objection. It's put backward for me. I don't mind
calling the interaction we're talking about "coercion." I object to
describing coercion as control of another person's behavior. As soon as the
coercer controls it, it is thereby no longer the victim's behavior.
Coercion prevents the victim's behavior just as surely as the cage prevents
the bird's flying behavior.

Why do you have to say that coercion is the control of another's behavior?
Putting it that way introduces a sense of recursion that is not intended.
(Coercion is behavior and behavior is the control of perceptual input.
Coercion is control of perception of another's control of perception of
...) Here are some alternative definitions:

Coercion is control of the coercer's perceptions by means that prevent the
victim from controlling successfully.

Coercion is behavior that prevents another's.

Coercion is conflict in which one side always gets its way by overpowering
the other.

  Bruce Nevin

I think I figured out a way to explain my position succinctly. Controlling
anothers behavior refers to reference signals at lower levels in the
higherarchy, programs on down. It does not really say much about higher level
intentions. Higher level references have to do with longer term outcomes.
Controlling anothers behavior could be done within the sincere higher level
intention of caring about anothers long term future and what is viable for
that person long term, or it can be done with no care about anotherl's long
term future. I associate coercion mostly with the later, and I think most
people do as well.

Controlling another's behavior is neither wright nor wrong, good nor bad, not
just because there is no ultimate authority about such principles, but because
controlling another's behavior is not at the same level. Controlling
another's behavior is just one alternative subroutine which I use variably
amoung others in order to meet my longer term goals of caring for kids to whom
I have been entrusted. Maybe you think I am deluding myself, Bill Powers, but
I think you can imagine situations in which control of another's behavior can
be used in a caring manner. I don't use control losely or frequently, and
using it is not usually an easy decision to make. I try to examine my
intentions carefully. Sometimes I think the long term consequence of not
using it are worse than those of using it, and thats when I control.

I am perfectly happy to listen to your descriptions of
your methods and the results you obtained, but I feel constrained not to
ask any questions that imply anything other than what you believe to be the
truth about your approach. After all, you wouldn't be telling me about it
if you didn't think it was a good approach that produced good results. What
can PCT offer to a successful approach that does everything you want from it?

Don't feel constrained. I'm not religiously attatched to the methods I've
used in the past. I don't think my methods are perfect and I am open to
feedback and other alternatives. They're just the best I've come up with to
deal with the real world situations in which I've been. I'm certainly willing
to consider other alternatives.

Sincerely,

Bob C.

[From Bill Powers (980701.0826 MDT)]

Bruce Nevin (980630. EDT)--

I said:

If someone doesn't want to
call control of another person's behavior through the use or threat of
physical force "coercion," I confess I can't understand why. But if we can
agree on the "control of behavior" definition, I suppose we can be sure
we're referring to the same thing and forget about saying "coercion."

You said:

This might be someone's objection. It's put backward for me. I don't mind
calling the interaction we're talking about "coercion." I object to
describing coercion as control of another person's behavior. As soon as the
coercer controls it, it is thereby no longer the victim's behavior.
Coercion prevents the victim's behavior just as surely as the cage prevents
the bird's flying behavior.

The problem here is that you aren't specifying what YOU mean by behavior.
This is a problem in several ways. To start with the first:

As Rick pointed out, most people who speak of behavior fail to
differentiate between controlled perceptions (qi) and the actions by which
they do the controlling (qo). You, apparently, think you are talking about
actions, output, when you use the word behavior, but I'll bet that at least
half of the time you're actually talking about a controlled perception but
haven't paused to realize it.

For example, you speak of a bird's "flying behavior." Flying, surely, is a
perceived consequence of the bird's motor actions, not an output of its
nervous system or muscles. Muscles produce forces, not flyings. I would
guess that birds don't really perceive what we perceive as flying; our
definition of the term tends to refer to a side or bottom view of the
activity. For a bird, flying is the way the world drops away and gets
smaller, and the way certain parts of it can be made to approach in just
the right way to alight upon. In other words, it's a set of controlled
perceptions.

You can say the same thing about walking. We perceive the consequences of
the patterned tensing of our muscles, and call those perceived consequences
"walking." But we don't often pay attention to the muscle tensions which
are the actual outputs involved in walking. When you speak about the
behavior of walking, you're actually referring to a set of controlled
perceptions, inputs not outputs. But like all of us, you think of this
perceptual consequence of the motor activities as what you are actually
"doing."

Why do you have to say that coercion is the control of another's behavior?
Putting it that way introduces a sense of recursion that is not intended.
(Coercion is behavior and behavior is the control of perceptual input.
Coercion is control of perception of another's control of perception of
...) Here are some alternative definitions:

The problem here lies in whether you define behavior according to who is in
control of it, or according to variables defining the physical situation.
Consider the behavior of moving your hand to various positions. The x,y,z
coordinates of your hand are the vector variable being controlled, and the
way they are seen to vary with time is the "behavior" in question. Whether
you control the position of your hand or I control it, the same variable,
the behavior of your hand, is being controlled. I hope that you can see how
naturally "the behavior of your hand" becomes the controlled variable no
matter who is controlling it. It is "your" behavior because it is "your" hand.

Your argument is that either you or I must control the position of the hand
(regardless of whose it is), and that coercion means that only the stronger
of us controls it, while the other fails to control it. But (and this is
the other main problem) this view fails to recognize that if you are the
coercer, I am still _trying_ to control the hand. I am still experiencing
error, still producing output forces, and still perceiving the position of
the hand and comparing it with a desired position. In fact, I am still
doing everything that a control system does -- except managing to keep my
error small. As far as I am concerned, I am still engaged in the process I
call controlling, even though right now it's not working very well. I'm
doing it as well as I can, in the circumstances.

This is very different from the situation in which you are controlling the
position of my hand (as perceived) and I am not even trying to control it.
If I'm not trying to control it, I have no reference level for a desired
position of my hand; there is no (position) error no matter what position I
perceive it to be in; I am producing no output tending to alter its
position. The behavior of the hand is very nearly the same as when I am
trying to control it (since you are so much stronger), but now it's really
true that only one control system exists: yours.

It makes a difference whether my control system exists and is trying
unsuccessfully to correct its error, or does not exist (or is turned off)
so that only one control system is active.

Instead of thinking of a control system as something that accomplishes a
certain result, think of it as a physical device which is always trying to
accomplish that result as long as it is turned on, with varying success
depending on how strong environmental disturbances are at the moment. You
don't judge whether a control system exists by seeing whether the error is
zero; you judge by whether the required piecewise relationships among
components and variables exist: perception, reference level, error signal,
output function, etc..

Coercion is control of the coercer's perceptions by means that prevent the
victim from controlling successfully.

Coercion is behavior that prevents another's.

Coercion is conflict in which one side always gets its way by overpowering
the other.

I think these are all acceptable, but incomplete, descriptions of coercion.
The Wise Men and the Elephant, again.

How about: Coercion is using physical force or the threat of it to make
another person appear to behave in a certain manner.

The "appear to" takes into account your observation that the coercer is
really in control of the behavioral variable in question (whether the
victim's qi or the victim's qo). Really successful coercion, however, does
not involve operating the victim's arms and legs like a marionette. It
involves the use of force to the point where the mere threat of further use
is enough to produce compliance, so to an onlooker who does not know the
history of this relationship, it appears that the victim is producing the
behavior in question without external influence.

So the victim can truly say, "Yes, I am the one controlling this behavior
that you see, but no, I am not in control of whether I produce this
behavior or not. I am controlling in this manner only because whenever I do
not, I become subject to overwhelming physical force from someone more
powerful than I am."

I think that the disadvantage of using coercion to produce good behavior in
someone else is clearly laid out in the preceding statement. Coercion
produces good behavior only as long as the victim believes there is the
credible threat of overwhelming physical force. In practical terms, this
means that it is quite probable that the good behavior will last only as
long as the behavior is known by the victim to be under observation by the
coercer. The motive for the good behavior is not the maintenance of
principles or system concepts that the victim perceives, accepts, and
actively supports, but is only the avoidance of being on the receiving end
of overwhelming physical force.

Those who use physical force for benign ends do so in the belief that if
the victim can be made to exhibit certain acceptable behaviors, these
behaviors will tend to become "stamped in" so they will persist once the
victim is set free from the coercive situation. Good behavior will become
"habitual." It will "displace" bad behavior. If you simulate respect long
enough, "real respect" will follow. Such views add up to some sort of vague
model of how behavior works.

The flaw in this vague model is that the coercer has no practical way to
find out if it's valid. The coercer sees good behavior whenever the coercer
(or a surrogate) is looking -- and no information when he or she or a
surrogate is not looking. In the case of children, any adult becomes a
surrogate of the coercer, so when any adult is observing, children make
sure they are "on their best behavior" (as they understand the adults to
perceive it). The children exert, as Tom Bourbon has often pointed out,
"counter-control." By controlling the perceptions they allow the adults to
have of them, the children control the adults' actions -- mainly by
convincing the adults that no corrective action is needed.

This is why being an informer is considered by children to be such a
monstrous social sin. The informer, by telling the coercers what is really
going on, threatens to destroy the children's counter-control.

The adult who uses benign coercion wants to instill good standards and
values into the child-coercee, so that later in life the child will have a
sound higher-order basis for governing moral and other social behavior. But
coercion begets resistance, and by resisting, children learn how to resist,
not how to comply. It teaches counter-control; here, the art of giving the
coercer the illusion of success while maintaining independence from the
coercer at higher levels of perception and control. Rather than "stamping
in" the good behavior, coercion is most likely to teach the victim how to
_simulate_ good behavior when required, without acquiring any higher-order
reasons for independently choosing good behavior.

This is one of my primary beefs with certain religions. The basis for
teaching good behavior in many of them is nothing more edifying than the
promise of endless ecstasy for being good, and the threat of endless agony
for being bad. There is nothing taught about why being good is better than
being bad. In fact, I occasionally test religiously-inclined acquaintances
by asking them why one shouldn't murder. If the only answer is "Because
it's a sin to murder and God will punish you if you do it," it's clear that
this person hasn't built up any independent understanding or goals on this
subject at the level of principles or system concepts.

Still on that subject, the proposal that God is omniscient is necessary if
the threat of pain or the promise of pleasure is to be a credible means of
coercing good behavior. Secular pleasure and pain -- reward and punishment
by human beings -- are usable as means of producing the appearance of good
behavior only as long as the controller can observe the controllee. So for
many people, the principle involved in dealing with humans in authority is
"What they don't know won't hurt them" or "The only crime is getting
caught." You can do anything you like as long as the police or other
authorities don't know about it.

This principle would, of course, make religious moral admonitions
ineffective, because if you believe that God can see only what you choose
to reveal of your thoughts and activities, you can violate any commandment
you please as long as you keep it a secret. The obvious counter to this
escape clause is the one actually used by theologians: to say "Ah, yes, but
God in His mercy knows the hidden as well as the plain, your thoughts as
well as your actions, and your behavior just as well as, and at the same
time as, everyone else's, without cease or pause." In other words, there is
never a time when God is not observing your behavior and your _reasons_ for
behaving, so you can never be free of this surveillance and escape the
implied consequences of wrong-doing or even wrong-thinking. You have to
keep up the good behavior under all circumstances, because you are always
under observation.

I don't think that most people realize the true horror of this supposed
inescapable 24-hour surveillance. Even believers do sin from time to time,
or think about sinning, which shows me that they don't truly understand the
implications. You can't say "I'm not really sinning" or "I don't really
mean it" or "This one doesn't count," because God knows the truth, you
can't conceal it. Even to desire to sin is to reveal your true motives, and
God will never forget them. This places you totally at God's mercy.

I think I came to realize the true implications of what I was being taught
in this regard when I was eleven or twelve. By that time I had sinned
enough to know that it didn't really matter what I did for the rest of my
life: I was doomed to roast or boil in hell forever. I was like the
prisoner in jail for murder without hope of parole: what more can they do
to me if I murder again?

Then I caught on to the "forgiveness" part of the story. If I truly
repented and resolved to sin no more, my past sins would be forgiven and I
could start over, clean. Wow! How could any sinner pass up a deal like
that? I was on the verge of thinking, "Oh, yes, Lord, sign me up, just tell
me what to do."

Well, not really on the verge. I was just close enough to realize what I
would probably do if I fell for that scam (as I later came to think of it).
I completely understood why other people went for the deal -- not
intellectually, since I wasn't capable of much adult reasoning yet, but by
feeling what it would be like, in imagination, to shed all that guilt. It
would be, as they say, like being born again. If you feel that you've
totally spoiled your first chance, how could you resist being handed a
second chance?

Then it hit me. The only reason I felt so guilty was that I was afraid of
God. But it was God who set all this up in the first place, who scared me
with hell (I was much less impressed with the joys of standing around
telling God how great he was, that he hadn't lost a thing, and other such
flattery). And who said that any of this was true, anyway? Mr. Hyslop, and
others in the church, and (with some embarrassment) even my parents, but
nobody who impressed me as having any special pipeline to the truth. Sure,
if there is a God, he knows that I'm thinking all this, but he can't doom
me any more than I'm already doomed, so who cares? Strike me down, I dare
you. But no, none of that even makes sense if there's nobody here but me
who knows what's going on inside me.

And so I turned down the deal and quit being quilty, and quit worrying
about heaven and hell. I got born again anyway! I found I was still sorry
for some of my sins and still wanted to stop the ones I really didn't like,
but I also realized that I wanted to know _why_ it was a sin, and _how_ I
could figure out another way to be. I began to get a glimmer of the truth:
that we have to figure out our own reasons and how to make sense of them.

And finally, the point. There was nobody, NOBODY in my school or church who
had any idea of what I was trying to understand (or so I believed). Morals
were something that we teach and force young people to learn; they're not
something you reason about, as if you were as smart as God, or as if more
than one answer were possible. You don't even talk about morals in school;
that's what the young-people's church activities are for. That's what
Sunday is for. That's religion. It wasn't until I went to college that I
learned different, in Paul Arthur Schilpp's course on Ethics.

I know that my personal history isn't very interesting to others, and will
shock or sadden some (poor Bill is doomed, just as he once feared). But
maybe it will explain why I have such a dim view of the idea that coercing
good behavior is a practical way of instilling good behavior in the young.
I don't believe in the theory behind it, such as it is, and I don't believe
that coercers are in any position to know the true effects of their
hopefully benign efforts. To coerce children to be good, it seems to me, is
almost to guarantee that they will conceal their true desires and secret
actions from you, while doing their artful best to make you think they are
just what you hope they are. If they actually were what so many of them
want to convince the adults that they are, this world would be a
drastically different place as soon as they grew up and took charge.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (980701.1158 )]

Bob Cristensen (980701) --

I think I figured out a way to explain my position succinctly. Controlling
anothers behavior refers to reference signals at lower levels in the
hierarchy, programs on down. It does not really say much about higher
level intentions. Higher level references have to do with longer term
outcomes.

Controlling anothers behavior could be done within the sincere higher level
intention of caring about anothers long term future and what is viable for
that person long term, or it can be done with no care about anotherl's long
term future. I associate coercion mostly with the later, and I think most
people do as well.

No points for sincerity. I was thinking partly of you when I wrote the post
to Nevin (my 980701.0826 MDT)). Good intentions are not the same thing as
good results.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Nevin (980701.1633 EDT)]

Bill Powers (980701.0826 MDT)--

In this post you seem to be attributing to me positions that I was
attributing to Rick and arguing against. Maybe I've misunderstood. If I
have, please help me understand what you meant. There are some rough edges
in this reply. I apologize for that. I'm under the gun for some
deliverables, and still dealing with this debilitating bronchial thing. So,
here goes.

The problem here is that you aren't specifying what YOU mean by behavior.
This is a problem in several ways. To start with the first:

As Rick pointed out, most people who speak of behavior fail to
differentiate between controlled perceptions (qi) and the actions by which
they do the controlling (qo). You, apparently, think you are talking about
actions, output, when you use the word behavior, but I'll bet that at least
half of the time you're actually talking about a controlled perception but
haven't paused to realize it.

You are right that two senses of "behavior" are being used. When I use the
word with scare quotes, I mean behavioral outputs. That's what probably
comes to mind for most people who don't have an understanding of PCT. (I
might slip up and omit the quotes sometimes, when I think context makes
clear that's what I mean.) When I use the word without scare quotes I mean
behavior as the control of perceptual input. And that is the sense intended
in what you quoted:

I object to
describing coercion as control of another person's behavior. As soon as the
coercer controls it, it is thereby no longer the victim's behavior.
Coercion prevents the victim's behavior [...]

For example, you speak of a bird's "flying behavior." Flying, surely, is a
perceived consequence of the bird's motor actions, not an output of its
nervous system or muscles.

Remember that in the little bird story I was attributing these words to
Rick. I intended these words to parallel things that he has actually said.
By keeping the bird in the cage, he is coercing the bird. The variable that
is subject to the conflict between Rick and the bird is the body position
of the bird. The principal way the bird controls body position is by what
the coercer perceives as flying, and since only the coercer's point of view
is relevant the coercer is controlling the bird's flying; indeed, most
people would agree that you keep a bird in a cage to prevent it from flying
away. Of course the bird has other ways of controlling body position, such
as hopping, and clambering with beak and claws. However, it is free to do
those things inside the cage, so that is not what is being coerced.

Recall too that the reason for this story was to answer Rick's question:

why is coercion suddenly not control of
behavior given the PCT revelation that behavior is control of
perception?

The initial premise is that behavior is the control of perception. For
coercion to be the control of another's behavior, you have to define the
other's "behavior" as their behavioral outputs. Saying that the coercer
controls "aspects" of the other's behavior is just a dodgy hedge. You are
saying that the coercer controls "behavior" in the pre-PCT sense. That was
the point of the story. Your disquisition on what flying behavior is from
the point of view of the bird ignores that. In fact, you're attributing to
me the error for which I am inveighing against Rick.

This was my answer to Rick's question (omitting the bird story):

Because the stronger system does not control the subordinate system's
control of its perceptions.

[...] The coercer is controlling his perceptual input. His control
actions are disturbances that prevent you from controlling your perceptual
input.

[...]

All the coercer can do is prevent the subordinate system from controlling
successfully (control as an achievement vs. control as a process).

[...]

You can't control the autonomous flying of the bird. You can't control the
behavior of an autonomous control system. You can only interfere with it,
block it, prevent it, restrict it, limit it, bind it.

Back to the message you're responding to. Bruce:

Why do you have to say that coercion is the control of another's behavior?
Putting it that way introduces a sense of recursion that is not intended.
(Coercion is behavior and behavior is the control of perceptual input.
Coercion is control of perception of another's control of perception of
...) Here are some alternative definitions:

Bill:

The problem here lies in whether you define behavior according to who is in
control of it, or according to variables defining the physical situation.

Yes indeed. If you wag my arm like a flag, easily overcoming my resistance,
that arm-wagging is your behavior, not mine. My behavior includes my futile
resistance. You are controlling my arm, but you are not controlling my
behavior. Unless what you mean by control is preventing my efforts from
having any effect in the environment (that is, on my arm position). But you
are not controlling a perception of nullifying my efforts. My efforts are
disturbances to the perception that you are controlling. So not even in
that sense are you controlling my behavior.

You directly deny this:

Consider the behavior of moving your hand to various positions. The x,y,z
coordinates of your hand are the vector variable being controlled, and the
way they are seen to vary with time is the "behavior" in question. Whether
you control the position of your hand or I control it, the same variable,
the behavior of your hand, is being controlled. I hope that you can see how
naturally "the behavior of your hand" becomes the controlled variable no
matter who is controlling it. It is "your" behavior because it is "your"

hand.

So if I am asleep and you move my hand around, that is my behavior? Shall I
press on to more absurd conclusions? C'mon, Bill, this is an untenable
position. And all to defend the notion that coercion is control of
another's behavior? When all that can be controlled by the coercer is
"behavior" in the sense against which you have been inveighing for more
than 40 years? Look at it, man! The environmental influence of the
coercer's hand physically causes a change in my hand position, linear
causation. Is this really a position that you want to defend?

Your argument is that either you or I must control the position of the hand
(regardless of whose it is), and that coercion means that only the stronger
of us controls it, while the other fails to control it. But (and this is
the other main problem) this view fails to recognize that if you are the
coercer, I am still _trying_ to control the hand. I am still experiencing
error, still producing output forces, and still perceiving the position of
the hand and comparing it with a desired position. In fact, I am still
doing everything that a control system does -- except managing to keep my
error small. As far as I am concerned, I am still engaged in the process I
call controlling, even though right now it's not working very well. I'm
doing it as well as I can, in the circumstances.

Here, you are arguing in support of what I have been saying. The victim is
still controlling a perception--behaving--only without being able to reduce
error because of currently overwhelming disturbances. THEREFORE the coercer
is NOT controlling the victim's behavior. The coercer is controlling the
position of the victim's hand, much as he might control the position of a
book or a shoe.

Was there some connection between those two paragraphs ("Consider the
behavior" and "Your argument is") that I missed? They seem to go in
opposite directions.

This is very different from the situation in which you are controlling the
position of my hand (as perceived) and I am not even trying to control it.
If I'm not trying to control it, I have no reference level for a desired
position of my hand; there is no (position) error no matter what position I
perceive it to be in; I am producing no output tending to alter its
position. The behavior of the hand is very nearly the same as when I am
trying to control it (since you are so much stronger), but now it's really
true that only one control system exists: yours.

According to views stated earlier, I am still coercing you, your present
non-control of this variable is irrelevant. I can't remember, it may be
that you have disavowed that. You did agree that the victim has to be
present in the same environment.

It makes a difference whether my control system exists and is trying
unsuccessfully to correct its error, or does not exist (or is turned off)
so that only one control system is active.

Sure. One case is coercion: you are preventing me from controlling well,
though you cannot control my behavior (my controlling). The other case is
not coercion: you are merely controlling a perception of some environment
variable, a perception of which I might be controlling but am not. What
difference did you have in mind? I do not agree that one is control of my
behavior and the other not.

Instead of thinking of a control system as something that accomplishes a
certain result, think of it as a physical device which is always trying to
accomplish that result as long as it is turned on, with varying success
depending on how strong environmental disturbances are at the moment. You
don't judge whether a control system exists by seeing whether the error is
zero; you judge by whether the required piecewise relationships among
components and variables exist: perception, reference level, error signal,
output function, etc..

Sure. I was making the same distinction to Rick. If you say that coercion
is control of another's behavior in the PCT sense, you have to be thinking
of control as an accomplishment or result rather than a process. If a
coercer controls another's behavior (PCT sense), it is only by preventing
the result or achievement of good control. The process of controlling is
out of the coercer's reach.

How about: Coercion is using physical force or the threat of it to make
another person appear to behave in a certain manner.

No problem. It neatly captures both senses of "behave." It also captures
how the victim may satisfy the appearance of compliance, the letter vs. the
spirit of the law.

Really successful coercion [...]
involves the use of force to the point where the mere threat of further use
is enough to produce compliance, so to an onlooker who does not know the
history of this relationship, it appears that the victim is producing the
behavior in question without external influence.

So the victim can truly say, "Yes, I am the one controlling this behavior
that you see, but no, I am not in control of whether I produce this
behavior or not. I am controlling in this manner only because whenever I do
not, I become subject to overwhelming physical force from someone more
powerful than I am."

Can we not distinguish between coercion and threat? The role of coercion
can be made clear in your discussion of RTP schools without claiming that
merely by watching for disruptions the teachers are coercing. This seemed
to me gratuitous provocation from the outset. Isn't the point that "the
system" rests ultimately on coercion? Doesn't that suffice? The change is
not difficult. For example:

it is quite probable that the good behavior will last only as
long as the behavior is known by the victim to be under observation by the
coercer.

For "coercer" substitute something like "person threatening coercion":

It is quite probable that the good behavior will last only as long as the
behavior is known by the victim to be under observation by the person
threatening coercion.

It might be that RTP practitioners would find that a lot easier to digest
without derogating your point in the least.

  Bruce Nevin

[From Bill Powers (980701.2036 MDT)]

Bruce Nevin (980701.1633 EDT) --

In this post you seem to be attributing to me positions that I was
attributing to Rick and arguing against. Maybe I've misunderstood. If I
have, please help me understand what you meant.

You're probably right; I'm getting to the point where I don't know what I
mean any more, or what I'm reading. The word "coercion" has been uttered so
many times that it takes an effort to remember that it's supposed to be
something more than a noise.

I believe that in the following you are talking to Rick:

Here, you are arguing in support of what I have been saying. The victim is
still controlling a perception--behaving--only without being able to reduce
error because of currently overwhelming disturbances. THEREFORE the coercer
is NOT controlling the victim's behavior. The coercer is controlling the
position of the victim's hand, much as he might control the position of a
book or a shoe.

So, by your reasoning, there is no relevance in the fact that the victim
considers the position of his hand the variable he is trying to control. As
soon as the coercer takes control of it, the coercee is no longer
controlling it. So there is no conflict, and no coercion (that is, the
coercer is NOT making the coercee do something against his will, but is
instead doing it FOR the coercee).

I have a hard time making sense of that. But as I say, this whole
discussion is beginning to sound like argle-bargle in a foreign language to
me.

How about: Coercion is using physical force or the threat of it to make
another person appear to behave in a certain manner.

No problem. It neatly captures both senses of "behave." It also captures
how the victim may satisfy the appearance of compliance, the letter vs. the
spirit of the law.

Ah, an agreement.

Can we not distinguish between coercion and threat? The role of coercion
can be made clear in your discussion of RTP schools without claiming that
merely by watching for disruptions the teachers are coercing. This seemed
to me gratuitous provocation from the outset. Isn't the point that "the
system" rests ultimately on coercion? Doesn't that suffice? The change is
not difficult. For example:

it is quite probable that the good behavior will last only as
long as the behavior is known by the victim to be under observation by the
coercer.

For "coercer" substitute something like "person threatening coercion":

I'm sorry, but you're splitting hairs. To make a credible threat of
applying force to another, you must actually do it first, to that person or
to another that the person can observe. From then on there exists a threat
of the use of force whether it is explicitly made or not. You're equating
coercion to the actual use of force. But force is always actually used,
whenever the victim's behavior strays from the trajectory that the coercer
wants to see. The victim finds that he can move his hand only in a certain
pattern; any incipient deviation from that pattern results in overwhelming
forces that prevent the deviation, as if the hand were moving in a groove.
The threat of force is not like someone saying "If you don't move your hand
the way I want, I'll make you do it by force." It's simply the experience
of finding that if you try to behave in any way but one specific way, an
irresistable force will prevent you from doing so (and you can actually
hurt yourself by trying to do so).

I think you're imagining threats of coercion to be some sort of verbal
statement or some gesture. What I'm trying to describe is something
different from that. I'm trying to describe a situation in which you find
that there is only one way you CAN behave, with any attempt to behave
otherwise meeting with insuperable counterforces. Once you have experienced
those counterforces, nobody needs to threaten you with them. You know
they're there. You may continue to try to overcome them, or give up. But
either way, you've been coerced.

Best,

Bill P.