Ruminations on Importance & Emotions.

[David Goldstein (2003.07.03.0744 EDT)]
[From Bill Powers (2003.07.02.0726 MDt)]
David Goldstein (2003.06.30 EDT)--

Bill and listmates,

Are you familiar with the research in which classical conditioning is
used to train a person to react negative emotionally, or positive
emotionally to nonsense syllables?

After training, a person reacts to the nonsense syllable in a negative
or positive emotional way. Before training, there was no emotional
reaction to the nonsense syllable.

This research seems to show that the process of classical conditioning
is one way that emotionally neutral perceptions take on emotional
properties.

If one did brain imaging studies before and after the nonsense syllables
took on emotional meaning, one could see which parts of the brain light
up and in which order.

What do you think?

David

[From Bill Powers (2003.07.04.0851 MDT)]

David Goldstein (2003.07.03.0744 EDT)--

Are you familiar with the research in which classical conditioning is
used to train a person to react negative emotionally, or positive
emotionally to nonsense syllables?

I've heard of it. Not very familiar with the experimental details.

After training, a person reacts to the nonsense syllable in a negative
or positive emotional way. Before training, there was no emotional
reaction to the nonsense syllable.

How about _during_ training? I would assume that during training, any
emotional reaction would be to the conditions occurring during training.

Isn't the effect seen because the nonsense syllable is regularly followed
by a disturbance of some controlled variable? Such a disturbance, according
to PCT, would be followed by a change of lower-level reference signals, and
according to the theory of emotion, a change in reference signals being
sent to the organ systems to support the action. So this would account for
any "emotional" response during training.

The evidence for classical "conditioning" is that the nonsense syllable,
presented without being followed by the disturbance of a CV, still appears
to result in an "emotional" response -- that is, a physiological
preparation for action (as well as any actual motor behavior that occurs).
In other words, the basis of the so-called conditioning is that a
perception which regularly precedes a disturbance comes to be perceived as
signaling the occurrance of that disturbance, so the organism reacts as if
the disturbance had actually occurred. This is the sort of thing that could
occur at the event level.

I can think of a task which would test this idea. Suppose that a light
turns on, and the subject is instructed to turn it off as quickly as
possible by pressing a key. If the subject adopts this goal, we will see
that after a series of trials, the reaction time comes down to some
irreducible minimum like 0.15 seconds.

Now we can institute a beep that occurs some fixed time before the light
turns on. As the trials continue, we will find the reaction time to the
light shortening until it is approximately zero (anticipatory key presses
should have no effect). This corresponds to the training phase of an
operant conditioning task, the difference being only that the "US" is a
learned controlled variable.

The next phase is to omit the light, the prediction being that the subject
will still treat the beep as a signal that the light will turn on after a
fixed delay. The subject will still press the key nearly at the time the
light is expected to turn on, giving the appearance that the beep (the CS)
is the cause of the response.

If emotions are involved in the response (that is, if the physiological
preparation is pronounced enough to be classed as an emotion), there will
be such a preparation as soon as the beep sounds or shortly after it,
because now, with the warning, it is possible to prepare _before_ the light
turns on. Normally, since the disturbance is too brief to counteract, it
comes too late, as does the beginning of a motor response.

In fact, I would guess that the "emotional response" would, after many
trials with and without either the light or the beep, come to be stronger
without the light than without the beep, because the person would learn
that any response to the light alone would come too late to achieve the
quickest turnoff. To get an emotional response of measurable magnitude, I
would guess that we would have to make the closure of the key contact
moderately difficult, so that an appreciable effort would be required.

Which suggests another experiment. Suppose that the person is asked to
perform a difficult task, like lifting a heavy weight off a table with one
hand in a single quick movement. No external CS is involved in this
experiment; the person simply initiates the task at any time after getting
into position. We would measure such things as GSR or muscle innervation
(with a myograph), as well as the position of the weight. Now, according to
my theory of emotion, we should see a change in the GSR and the state of
the muscles _just before_ the lift. If we could also measure heart rate and
breathing, these, too, should show changes before the act is performed. In
fact, all physiological measures normally used to indicate emotional state,
even brain-scans, should show indications prior to the action. These would
correspond to the "preparation for action" of which I speak. Of course if
the delay is too short, the preparations would merge into the action.

This research seems to show that the process of classical conditioning
is one way that emotionally neutral perceptions take on emotional
properties.

Only if that's what you already believe. Actually, I doubt that the beep
would change its properties at all. The overall perception might change, in
that just after the beep you would feel your body preparing for action. At
some level you might see a pattern made up of the beep and the somatic
changes, and if you weren't observing very acutely you might think the
somatic changes were somehow attached to the beep. This is the same sort of
evaluation that is involved in superstitions. Careful observation, however,
would quickly reveal that the beep is exactly the same in all trials, and
that the added feeling is due to what you are doing, not what the beep is
doing.

If one did brain imaging studies before and after the nonsense syllables
took on emotional meaning, one could see which parts of the brain light
up and in which order.

What do you think?

See above. Clearly, the meaning of what you see depends heavily on the
theoretical glasses you wear while looking at the data.

Best,

Bill P.

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.07.04.0902) ]

[David Goldstein (2003.07.03.0744 EDT)]

Are you familiar with the research in which classical conditioning is
used to train a person to react negative emotionally, or positive
emotionally to nonsense syllables?

David, would you include the research done in 'fear conditioning' as part of
this?

Fear conditioning being a set of experiments where a person is given some
inocuous stimuli followed quickly by some 'fear' generating stimuli. An
example might be a tone followed by a shock. Of course you could do this
with any type of 'emotion'. I am currently reading _Synaptic Self_ by Joseph
LeDoux. He provides an interesting overview of the practice. Pgs. 212 - 215.
LeDoux has some pretty interesting insights into emotions. He wrote _The
Emotional Brain_ a few years ago. If your interested in the study of emotion
you might want to look into his work. He holds a chair at NYU's Center for
Neural Sciences. LeDouxlab | Home

If one did brain imaging studies before and after the nonsense syllables
took on emotional meaning, one could see which parts of the brain light
up and in which order.

Interesting idea. I'm getting a qEEG. I'll kep you posted.

Marc

from David Goldstein (2003.07.04.1511 EDT)
[From Bill Powers (2003.07.04.0851 MDT)]

Dear Bill and listmates,
Thanks for the interesting answer.
I don't think I understand it completely.
What emotion do you think that pressing a key as quickly as possible to
a light onset creates within the person. I suppose that a person may
experience a sense of accomplishment or frustration, depending on
his/her performance. There should probably be a number which comes on
and tells the person how well the person is doing.
OK, the beep will take on whatever emotion is associated with trying to
control for the task of pressing when the light comes on.
When only the beep comes on and is not followed by the light, the person
may press a few times. But why would the person keep on pressing to the
beep when the instruction says press when the light comes on as quickly
as possible. Would this be considered an error?
I will hold off on talking about the second experiment.
David

P.S. I will keep your original message because I will refer to it after
your answer.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Powers
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 11:38 AM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Ruminations on Importance & Emotions.

[From Bill Powers (2003.07.04.0851 MDT)]

David Goldstein (2003.07.03.0744 EDT)--

Are you familiar with the research in which classical conditioning is
used to train a person to react negative emotionally, or positive
emotionally to nonsense syllables?

I've heard of it. Not very familiar with the experimental details.

After training, a person reacts to the nonsense syllable in a negative
or positive emotional way. Before training, there was no emotional
reaction to the nonsense syllable.

How about _during_ training? I would assume that during training, any
emotional reaction would be to the conditions occurring during training.

Isn't the effect seen because the nonsense syllable is regularly
followed by a disturbance of some controlled variable? Such a
disturbance, according to PCT, would be followed by a change of
lower-level reference signals, and according to the theory of emotion, a
change in reference signals being sent to the organ systems to support
the action. So this would account for any "emotional" response during
training.

The evidence for classical "conditioning" is that the nonsense syllable,
presented without being followed by the disturbance of a CV, still
appears to result in an "emotional" response -- that is, a physiological
preparation for action (as well as any actual motor behavior that
occurs). In other words, the basis of the so-called conditioning is that
a perception which regularly precedes a disturbance comes to be
perceived as signaling the occurrance of that disturbance, so the
organism reacts as if the disturbance had actually occurred. This is the
sort of thing that could occur at the event level.

I can think of a task which would test this idea. Suppose that a light
turns on, and the subject is instructed to turn it off as quickly as
possible by pressing a key. If the subject adopts this goal, we will see
that after a series of trials, the reaction time comes down to some
irreducible minimum like 0.15 seconds.

Now we can institute a beep that occurs some fixed time before the light
turns on. As the trials continue, we will find the reaction time to the
light shortening until it is approximately zero (anticipatory key
presses should have no effect). This corresponds to the training phase
of an operant conditioning task, the difference being only that the "US"
is a learned controlled variable.

The next phase is to omit the light, the prediction being that the
subject will still treat the beep as a signal that the light will turn
on after a fixed delay. The subject will still press the key nearly at
the time the light is expected to turn on, giving the appearance that
the beep (the CS) is the cause of the response.

If emotions are involved in the response (that is, if the physiological
preparation is pronounced enough to be classed as an emotion), there
will be such a preparation as soon as the beep sounds or shortly after
it, because now, with the warning, it is possible to prepare _before_
the light turns on. Normally, since the disturbance is too brief to
counteract, it comes too late, as does the beginning of a motor
response.

In fact, I would guess that the "emotional response" would, after many
trials with and without either the light or the beep, come to be
stronger without the light than without the beep, because the person
would learn that any response to the light alone would come too late to
achieve the quickest turnoff. To get an emotional response of measurable
magnitude, I would guess that we would have to make the closure of the
key contact moderately difficult, so that an appreciable effort would be
required.

Which suggests another experiment. Suppose that the person is asked to
perform a difficult task, like lifting a heavy weight off a table with
one hand in a single quick movement. No external CS is involved in this
experiment; the person simply initiates the task at any time after
getting into position. We would measure such things as GSR or muscle
innervation (with a myograph), as well as the position of the weight.
Now, according to my theory of emotion, we should see a change in the
GSR and the state of the muscles _just before_ the lift. If we could
also measure heart rate and breathing, these, too, should show changes
before the act is performed. In fact, all physiological measures
normally used to indicate emotional state, even brain-scans, should show
indications prior to the action. These would correspond to the
"preparation for action" of which I speak. Of course if the delay is too
short, the preparations would merge into the action.

This research seems to show that the process of classical conditioning
is one way that emotionally neutral perceptions take on emotional
properties.

Only if that's what you already believe. Actually, I doubt that the beep
would change its properties at all. The overall perception might change,
in that just after the beep you would feel your body preparing for
action. At some level you might see a pattern made up of the beep and
the somatic changes, and if you weren't observing very acutely you might
think the somatic changes were somehow attached to the beep. This is the
same sort of evaluation that is involved in superstitions. Careful
observation, however, would quickly reveal that the beep is exactly the
same in all trials, and that the added feeling is due to what you are
doing, not what the beep is doing.

If one did brain imaging studies before and after the nonsense
syllables took on emotional meaning, one could see which parts of the
brain light up and in which order.

What do you think?

See above. Clearly, the meaning of what you see depends heavily on the
theoretical glasses you wear while looking at the data.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Dick Robertson,2003.07.04.1455CDT]

Bill Powers wrote:

[From Bill Powers (2003.07.04.0851 MDT)]

David Goldstein (2003.07.03.0744 EDT)--

>Are you familiar with the research in which classical conditioning is
>used to train a person to react negative emotionally, or positive
>emotionally to nonsense syllables?

Isn't the effect seen because the nonsense syllable is regularly followed
by a disturbance of some controlled variable? Such a disturbance, according
to PCT, would be followed by a change of lower-level reference signals, and
according to the theory of emotion, a change in reference signals being
sent to the organ systems to support the action. So this would account for
any "emotional" response during training.

The evidence for classical "conditioning" is that the nonsense syllable,
presented without being followed by the disturbance of a CV, still appears
to result in an "emotional" response -- that is, a physiological
preparation for action (as well as any actual motor behavior that occurs).
In other words, the basis of the so-called conditioning is that a
perception which regularly precedes a disturbance comes to be perceived as
signaling the occurrance of that disturbance, so the organism reacts as if
the disturbance had actually occurred. This is the sort of thing that could
occur at the event level.

ETC.

Yea! This is the kind of thing I like to see more of in net discussions. It
would be good material for an IMP2, also.

Best, Dick R

···

[From Bill Powers (2003.07.04.1342 MDT)]

David Goldstein (2003.07.04.1511 EDT) --

What emotion do you think that pressing a key as quickly as possible to
a light onset creates within the person.

I don't know. There would be a feeling of preparedness, which some people
might call anxiety, or being keyed up, or being afraid to fail, or being
determined to beat the machine. The word an individual might use for the
emotional content would depend on how he or she viewed the task.

The task isn't just to press a key when the light comes on. It's to turn
the light off as quickly as possible. Light on = BAD. Light off = GOOD.

I suppose that a person may
experience a sense of accomplishment or frustration, depending on
his/her performance. There should probably be a number which comes on
and tells the person how well the person is doing.

That's a good idea -- the quicker the light goes out, the higher the score?
Or the fewer points lost?

OK, the beep will take on whatever emotion is associated with trying to
control for the task of pressing when the light comes on.
When only the beep comes on and is not followed by the light, the person
may press a few times. But why would the person keep on pressing to the
beep when the instruction says press when the light comes on as quickly
as possible. Would this be considered an error?

Doesn't have to be an error. In conditioning experiments, when the US
doesn't appear the reaction eventually ceases ("extinction"). I suppose if
you penalized the person for reacting to the beep alone, eventually the
"conditioning" would disappear, although if the task were made difficult,
some physiological preparation would still be necessary before you found
out that the light wasn't going to turn on.

The application to your airplane experience isn't quite direct, since you
never were able to control the US -- the crashing of the airplane and the
danger to you. I proposed that you learned a new control system that said,
basically, "never again." When any perception appeared that seemed similar
to what you experienced in the crash, you tried to bring it to zero --
using the same efforts and preparation for action you used on the airplane.
Did that make any sense to you?

This experiment ought to be very easy to set up on a computer.

Best,

Bill P.

[David Goldstein (2003.07.04.534 EDT)]

[From Bill Powers (2003.07.04.1342 MDT)]

David Goldstein (2003.07.04.1511 EDT) --

Bill and listmates,

Instead of a light, which has an ambiguous emotional meaning, why not
use a picture which displays some significant emotion laden object? For
example, suppose that we asked a person to sort the photos of people who
have a public image from "people I have a strong positive emotional
reaction to" to "people I have a strong negative emotional reaction to".
We would select a photo at one or the other end of the continuum. The
task would be the same, namely, "Make the picture go away as quickly as
possible."

I suppose that a person's psychophysiological response (EMG, TEMP, SCL,
heart-rate, breathing, for example) could be taken during the showing of
the picture by itself. This would be pretty simple with Biofeedback
equipment. The deviation from a baseline "mindclear" would show that the
photos had some emotional meaning for the person. There would probably
be a different minimal reaction time to positive and negative emotional
pictures. I would expect that a person would want a photo of someone I
dislike to go away faster than a photo of someone I like.

Then the same psychophyiologial measures could be taken during the beep
phase of the experiment.

One would probably see the development of the psychophsiological
activity to the beep similar to the picture. And the reaction time to
the picture would go down to zero from the minimal value during the
pre-beep phase.

You said:

The application to your airplane experience isn't quite direct, since
you never were able to control the US -- the crashing of the airplane
and the danger to you. I proposed that you learned a new control system
that said, basically, "never again." When any perception appeared that
seemed similar to what you experienced in the crash, you tried to bring
it to zero -- using the same efforts and preparation for action you used
on the airplane. Did that make any sense to you?

I agree. This does point to the role of memory in the whole thing. The
"any perception similar to what you experienced" is the memory part.

David

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Powers
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 3:56 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Ruminations on Importance & Emotions.

[From Bill Powers (2003.07.04.1342 MDT)]

David Goldstein (2003.07.04.1511 EDT) --

What emotion do you think that pressing a key as quickly as possible to

a light onset creates within the person.

I don't know. There would be a feeling of preparedness, which some
people might call anxiety, or being keyed up, or being afraid to fail,
or being determined to beat the machine. The word an individual might
use for the emotional content would depend on how he or she viewed the
task.

The task isn't just to press a key when the light comes on. It's to turn
the light off as quickly as possible. Light on = BAD. Light off = GOOD.

I suppose that a person may
experience a sense of accomplishment or frustration, depending on
his/her performance. There should probably be a number which comes on
and tells the person how well the person is doing.

That's a good idea -- the quicker the light goes out, the higher the
score? Or the fewer points lost?

OK, the beep will take on whatever emotion is associated with trying to

control for the task of pressing when the light comes on. When only the

beep comes on and is not followed by the light, the person may press a
few times. But why would the person keep on pressing to the beep when
the instruction says press when the light comes on as quickly as
possible. Would this be considered an error?

Doesn't have to be an error. In conditioning experiments, when the US
doesn't appear the reaction eventually ceases ("extinction"). I suppose
if you penalized the person for reacting to the beep alone, eventually
the "conditioning" would disappear, although if the task were made
difficult, some physiological preparation would still be necessary
before you found out that the light wasn't going to turn on.

The application to your airplane experience isn't quite direct, since
you never were able to control the US -- the crashing of the airplane
and the danger to you. I proposed that you learned a new control system
that said, basically, "never again." When any perception appeared that
seemed similar to what you experienced in the crash, you tried to bring
it to zero -- using the same efforts and preparation for action you used
on the airplane. Did that make any sense to you?

This experiment ought to be very easy to set up on a computer.

Best,

Bill P.

from David Goldstein (2003.6.620 EDT)
[Marc Abrams (2003.07.04.1422 EDT)]

Marc and listmates,
Yes I think that fear conditioning is part of this. Thanks for the
Joseph LeDoux reference.
If you do get a QEEG, which is expensive and takes a long time to learn
how to use properly, I will be happy to give you some information. There
are new units coming out which sound very good.
David

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Marc Abrams
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 12:22 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Ruminations on Importance & Emotions.

From [ Marc Abrams (2003.07.04.0902) ]

[David Goldstein (2003.07.03.0744 EDT)]

Are you familiar with the research in which classical conditioning is
used to train a person to react negative emotionally, or positive
emotionally to nonsense syllables?

David, would you include the research done in 'fear conditioning' as
part of this?

Fear conditioning being a set of experiments where a person is given
some inocuous stimuli followed quickly by some 'fear' generating
stimuli. An example might be a tone followed by a shock. Of course you
could do this with any type of 'emotion'. I am currently reading
_Synaptic Self_ by Joseph LeDoux. He provides an interesting overview of
the practice. Pgs. 212 - 215. LeDoux has some pretty interesting
insights into emotions. He wrote _The Emotional Brain_ a few years ago.
If your interested in the study of emotion you might want to look into
his work. He holds a chair at NYU's Center for Neural Sciences.
http://www.cns.nyu.edu/home/ledoux/

If one did brain imaging studies before and after the nonsense
syllables took on emotional meaning, one could see which parts of the
brain light up and in which order.

Interesting idea. I'm getting a qEEG. I'll kep you posted.

Marc

[From Bill Powers (2003.07.05.0813 MDT)]

David Goldstein (2003.07.04.534 EDT)--

Instead of a light, which has an ambiguous emotional meaning, why not
use a picture which displays some significant emotion laden object?

My thesis implies that there is no such thing as an "emotion-laden object."
The emotion exists entirely in what you want to do about the object. By
using the light as the controlled variable, we can eliminate all the
supposed emotional content of the "stimuli." All that is left is the
control process and preparing for action. I would predict that objective
signs of emotion will still appear, especially if the action is difficult
or is blocked or fails for some other reason.

For example, suppose that we asked a person to sort the photos of people who
have a public image from "people I have a strong positive emotional
reaction to" to "people I have a strong negative emotional reaction to".
We would select a photo at one or the other end of the continuum. The
task would be the same, namely, "Make the picture go away as quickly as
possible."

Now you're mixing two theories together. The one you're proposing says that
certain objects are stimuli that have the property of causing emotions; to
test this idea, you present the object-stimulus and record the resulting
response. From the PCT point of view, this is the classical "behavioral
illusion," in which a disturbance of something is counteracted by an action
on the same (unknown) something, but it seems that the disturbance is a
stimulus and the action is simply a blind response to it. The illusion is
caused by not being aware of the purpose of the action (or not believing in
purposes in the first place and so not even looking for it).

Strong positive and negative emotions produce very similar -- if not
identical -- objective symptoms, and subjective feelings. The main
subjective difference between them, I am proposing, is in the kind of
perception being controlled and its reference level. If you're confronted
with a maximally attractive member of the opposite sex, you may interpret
your shallow breathing, feeling of tightness in the chest, and elevated
heartrate as love or lust. If confronted by a large uncaged wild animal,
you may interpret exactly the same physiological sensations as fear. This
is because the primary difference between emotions lies in the perception,
the reference level, and the error involved in the main control process
going on, not in the state of physiological preparedness (and certainly not
in the physical object outside you).

I suppose that a person's psychophysiological response (EMG, TEMP, SCL,
heart-rate, breathing, for example) could be taken during the showing of
the picture by itself. This would be pretty simple with Biofeedback
equipment. The deviation from a baseline "mindclear" would show that the
photos had some emotional meaning for the person.

That's the S-R interpretation again. From the PCT standpoint, what we would
be seeing is physiological preparation to take some sort of action with
respect to the subject-matter in the picture, but we wouldn't know what
action or what it would be intended to accomplish. I doubt that you would
see any significant differences in the physiological responses, except
perhaps their magnitudes.

There would probably
be a different minimal reaction time to positive and negative emotional
pictures. I would expect that a person would want a photo of someone I
dislike to go away faster than a photo of someone I like.

Maybe, but I doubt that the difference would be predictable. This is the
sort of experiment that yields what Dag calls "mush."

Then the same psychophyiologial measures could be taken during the beep
phase of the experiment.

One would probably see the development of the psychophsiological
activity to the beep similar to the picture. And the reaction time to
the picture would go down to zero from the minimal value during the
pre-beep phase.

You said:

The application to your airplane experience isn't quite direct, since
you never were able to control the US -- the crashing of the airplane
and the danger to you. I proposed that you learned a new control system
that said, basically, "never again." When any perception appeared that
seemed similar to what you experienced in the crash, you tried to bring
it to zero -- using the same efforts and preparation for action you used
on the airplane. Did that make any sense to you?

I agree. This does point to the role of memory in the whole thing. The
"any perception similar to what you experienced" is the memory part.

That's a possibility, but not necessary. You don't need to remember a time
when you were in a small cramped space to perceive that you are now in a
small cramped space, and ditto for the other significant perceptions. What
you have learned is simply to keep that kind of perception at zero, where
by "you" I don't mean your whole cognitive self, but just the control
processes that were then and are now involved. Those control processes
could be operating quite outside your awareness, so all you consciously
experience is the physical preparation for action, and your effort to
escape, which you interpret as a unexplained fear.

If that's how it works, it's not surprising that emotions seem to arise
from outside us by some mysterious ESP-like connection. The details are not
readi;y available to inspection.

Best,

Bill P.

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.07.05.1056) ]

As an aside to Rick & others. _This_ is why I stay on this list, For
discussions like these. I second Dick R's emotion. ( pun intended :-))

[From Bill Powers (2003.07.04.1342 MDT)]

David Goldstein (2003.07.04.1511 EDT) --

Bill and listmates,

Instead of a light, which has an ambiguous emotional meaning, why not
use a picture which displays some significant emotion laden object? For
example, suppose that we asked a person to sort the photos of people who
have a public image from "people I have a strong positive emotional
reaction to" to "people I have a strong negative emotional reaction to".
We would select a photo at one or the other end of the continuum. The
task would be the same, namely, "Make the picture go away as quickly as
possible."

LeDoux has pointed out in _Synaptic Self_ & _The Emotional Brain_ that there
are generally 3 current approaches to studying emotion. I think this might
be important in any formulation of an experiment on the subject. I will be
quoting from the book _Synaptic Self_ I will tell you if an idea has been
cited but will not provide a bib. This is not intended to be used in a
journal :-). I just want you to know that the idea was referenced.

The 3 methods are;

Processing Approach
Cognitive Approach
Limbic System Concept

The 'Cognitive Approach' treats emotions as appraisals - that is, as
thoughts about a given situation. ( cited ). While some appraisal theorists
allow for unconscious appraisals ( which is consistent with a processing
approach ), most emphasize appraisals as conscious thoughts and use verbal
self-report to understand the nature of the appraisal process. This
approach, obviously, takes us right back to the credibility problem. ( I
will define this later ). Conscious appraisals may indeed occur during an
emotional state, but there are other, more fundamental processes at work as
well. An understanding of these more fundamental processes is the goal of
the Processing Approach.

The 'Credibility Problem' as defined by LeDoux;
Emotion researchers, whether in psychology or brain science, have typically
sought to account for what most people think as the essence of emotion, the
subjective experience that occurs during an emotional state-the feeling of
fear when in danger, of anger when mad, or of joy when something good
happens. This was clearly the goal of emotional brain theories from James
through the limbic system concept. (cite) However, most of what we know
about the detailed brain mechanisms of emotion comers from studies of
emotional behavior rather than from studies of feelings themselves. We end
up with a gap between what emotion theories are about ( feelings ) and what
brain researchers actually measure ( behavior ).

The traditional way of using self-report to study feelings is to asak people
to reflect back on some previous emotional experience. But assessments from
memory are particularly problematic. ( many cites ) It has been shown that
what we remember about an emotional experience is an imperfect reflection of
what actually happened ( many cites ) An example; people tend to remember
how they felt at the end of an emotional episode rather than how they felt
about the whole episode. (Several examples from studies given). Distortions
in memory also extend beyond intensity of experience and include the content
of what is remembered. ( many cites and a couple of examples ). Because
remembered experience is a distortion of actual experience, and because it's
difficult to elicit real emotional experience in lab studies, some
contemporary researchers emphasize the importance of obtaining immediate or
on-line evals during real emotional episodes`(measures of instant utility),
especially in natural sewttings ( cite ). Though such studies circumvent the
errors of remembered utility and artficiality of lab research, they are
extremely hard to implement, as well as being time consuming, and in the end
are still subject to the biases and measurement problems in herent in any
method that relies on one's introspective evaluation of his or her own
mental states ( cite ). The fallibility and subjectivity of introspective
evaluation are, after all, what triggered the behaviorist revolution in
psychology in the early 20th century. But if you want to assess the
introspective content of subjective experience, there just aen't many
alternatives to self-evaluation and verbal report.

And lastly it has been shown in a number of cited studies that 'observers'
were more accurate in

The Processing Approach ( obviously the choice of LeDoux ). Le Doux calls it
'emotional processing'. I, like Llinas, Edelman, & LeDoux believe that
emotion is a one of the substrates of consciousness and that it is
_pre-motor_. LeDoux, like Llinas and Edelman believe that there is some
'mechanism' between input and output that 'manages' our emotions. His
emotional process is a regulatory control loop. It is a controlled feedback
loop between the hippocampus ( context ) the rhinal cortex, and the central
piece, the Amygdala. ( many cites & examples ) Llinas & Edelman both
postulate that _before_ you can have feedback, there must be an intrinsic
'trigger' to begin the process, LeDoux is not clear on how this process
begins, he simply says that some 'stimulus' starts it. I concur with Llinas
& Edelman, for the time being, hence my view that 'behavior'is both
reflexive and controlled. My definition of behavior of course has expanded.
It is much more broadly interpreted then simply our motor skills.You cannot
apply a disturbance to something that does not exist. Consciousness &
control are _not_ continuous processes. They only look that way. This is a
physiological fact.

The Limbic Concept is a 'functional' view and needs to be updated.
Functional, in that the belief that certain parts of the brain house certain
specific functions. We now know that this is not true. Functionality is
distributed throughout the brain, such as the example given above for
LeDoux's brain/emotion model.

And finally, some studies have shown that observers have been more reliable
in determining emotions in others then the people were in introspectively
recognizing it in themselves.

I suppose that a person's psychophysiological response (EMG, TEMP, SCL,
heart-rate, breathing, for example) could be taken during the showing of
the picture by itself. This would be pretty simple with Biofeedback
equipment. The deviation from a baseline "mindclear" would show that the
photos had some emotional meaning for the person. There would probably
be a different minimal reaction time to positive and negative emotional
pictures. I would expect that a person would want a photo of someone I
dislike to go away faster than a photo of someone I like.

The question in my mind is, exactly what are you measuring here? As LeDoux
points out many concurrent things are taking place, How do you know you are
measuring 'emotions'?. It would seem to me you would need to develop a
baseline first and see if you got certain 'responses'from certain stimuli.
That is, making a person laugh, scared, etc. Like pre-testing someone before
administering a polygraph test.

LeDoux has centered his research on 'fear'. He has done studies, using
fMRI's, on normal and brain damaged individuals.

Marc

from David Goldstein (2003.07.05.1930 EDT)
[From Marc Abrams (2003.07.05.1617 EDT0]

Marc and listmates,
I can't really say that I understood the three different theoretical
approaches to emotion. I will have to read the LeDoux book.
My only question to you is the following. Which category does the PCT
approach fall into? Bill Powers has explained this pretty well in the
latest exchanges with me. On the surface, it does not seem to fall into
any of the categories.
Thanks,
David

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.07.05.2010) ]

>From David Goldstein (2003.07.05.1930 EDT)

I can't really say that I understood the three different theoretical
approaches to emotion. I will have to read the LeDoux book.

The purpose of the post was intended to show what was currently being done
in emotion research and to illuminate some of the problems associated it. I
thought it might be useful in so far as you are attempting to put together
an experiment.

My only question to you is the following. Which category does the PCT
approach fall into?

Does it matter? The purpose of the post was not to shoe-horn PCT in a
particular category. I think Bill is somewhere in-between the processing
method and the cognitive method. Bill is big on introspection. Ask Bill.
He's not talking to me. I don't know what he thinks of any of this.

Bill Powers has explained this pretty well in the
latest exchanges with me. On the surface, it does not seem to fall into

any of the categories.

Again, I don't have a clue, and I don't think it's important.

I asked you a direct question. I would appreciate an answer.

I asked how you would know what you were measuring. How would you know you
were measuring 'emotion' and not something else like 'learning', or are you
saying that _any_ reading is 'emotional' by definition.

Marc

from David Goldstein (2003.07.06.11:20 EDT)
[Marc Abrams (2003.07.05.20510]

Marc and listmates,

I disagree with you about the importance of the question. The approach
that Bill Powers is taking to emotion is way different than other
people. Do the other approaches involve the goal that a person is
wanting at the moment? Do they explain why a person might be
experiencing one emotion rather than another emotion? (happy versus
fear, for example).

I don't know of any way of directly measuring emotion. People have to do
this indirectly and they make use of the following kinds of data. They
observe the person in context. They obtain verbal reports from the
person about his/her emotional state. They measure a person's
physiological state to show that s/he is in a state of physiolgical and
biochemical arousal. When the measures agree, one has support for the
fact that one is assessing emotion.

Recently I came across a Q-sort method of measuring emotion . The main
reference is as follows.
        Westen, D., Muderrisolglu, S., Fowler, C., Shedler, J. & Koren,
D. (1997). Affect regulation and affective experience: Individual
differences, group differences, and
        measurement using a Q-sort procedure. Jouranl of Consulting and
Clinical Psychology,
        65, 429-439.

An experienced clinician administers a structured interview to a person.
The interview is videotaped. Then the clinician Q-sorts a set of 98
statements describing the person's emotional experiences and his/her
ways of coping/defending emotional experiences. The Q-sort goes from
most like to most unlike the person. A number of clinicians did this for
a number of patients. Six factors emerged. There was very good
interrater agreement for the Q-sorts of the same person. There was good
predictive and concurrent validity for the Q-sort measure and external
criteria.

Three factors had to do with types of emotional experiences (Positive
affect, Socialized negative affect, and Intensive negative affect. Three
had to do with ways of coping/defending emotional experiences
(Reality-focused responses, Externalizing defenses, and Avoidant
defenses). The emergence of two kinds of negative emotional experiences
was a novel and interesting finding.

There were interesting correlations among the factors. Positive affect
was handled by Reality-focused responses (.68) and not by Externalizing
defenses (-.37). Socialized negative affect was handled by
Reality-focused responses (.57) and not Externalizing defenses (-.61).
Intense negative affect was not handled by Reality-focused responses
(-.41) or Avoidant defenses (-.75).

[From Bill Powers (2003.07.06.1136 MDT)]

David Goldstein (2003.07.06.11:20 EDT)--

There were interesting correlations among the factors. Positive affect
was handled by Reality-focused responses (.68) and not by Externalizing
defenses (-.37). Socialized negative affect was handled by
Reality-focused responses (.57) and not Externalizing defenses (-.61).
Intense negative affect was not handled by Reality-focused responses
(-.41) or Avoidant defenses (-.75).

The problem with these data is that they are impossible to compare with the
performance of a model. Even if we could model these factors somehow, any
model would have to match not only the main effect noted, but the
exceptions as well, which would occur almost as often as the main effect.

Do you happen to have a copy of the article on interpreting statistical
results that Richard Kennaway wrote? I can't find mine. Correlations of the
sizes you cite are pretty low for drawing any conclusions. If I remember
the formula right [sqrt(1 - r^2)], a correlation of 0.37 corresponds to a
"coefficient of uselessness" of about 0.93, meaning that this measure
would be quite useless for predicting that "externalized defenses" would
not be used to handle positive affect. The highest correlation you cite is
0.75, which translates to a coefficient of uselessness of 0.66, which is
still pretty useless for making predictions. But Richard gave a more
trustworthy interpretation of this coefficient (really, the "coefficient of
alienation" in standard statistical lingo, as we discovered later).

These classifications are dubious when you consider that the HPCT emotion
model doesn't deal in the same categories. Presumably the "defenses" would
be simply whatever actions are appropriate to take against various kinds of
disturbances, or to correct various types of errors. Perhaps if the
conditions were re-stated with this idea in mind, a different set of axes
could be found that would yield more clear-cut results.

Best,

Bill P.

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.07.05.1450) ]

>From David Goldstein (2003.07.06.11:20 EDT)

I disagree with you about the importance of the question. The approach
that Bill Powers is taking to emotion is way different than other
people. Do the other approaches involve the goal that a person is
wanting at the moment? Do they explain why a person might be
experiencing one emotion rather than another emotion? (happy versus
fear, for example).

In my view, emotions take place _before_ any control kicks in, In fact,
emotion is one of the things that initiates control. I ask, How can you
disturb something that does not yet exist?

I don't know of any way of directly measuring emotion.

Neither does anyone else at the present time. But I believe a day will come
when we will.

People have to do this indirectly and they make use of the following kinds

of data. They

observe the person in context. They obtain verbal reports from the
person about his/her emotional state. They measure a person's
physiological state to show that s/he is in a state of physiolgical and
biochemical arousal. When the measures agree, one has support for the
fact that one is assessing emotion.

perfectly legitimate. The one question LeDoux and others ask is how do you
know you're measuring emotions and not something else? In designing any
'experiment' LeDoux ( stimulus response et. al ), has come up with certain
things you need to be aware of;
1) the possibilty of 'measuring' confounding data
2) introspection is generally unreliable, observers have been more accurate
in determining another persons true emotions at the time
3) Emotions need to 'measured in real-time, on-line and in 'natural'
environments, not labs. Relying on memory is a big bad no-no.
4) researching emotions is time consuming an very expensive. Thinking up
good experiments is important.

Some sound advice.

Recently I came across a Q-sort method of measuring emotion . The main
reference is as follows.
        Westen, D., Muderrisolglu, S., Fowler, C., Shedler, J. & Koren,
D. (1997). Affect regulation and affective experience: Individual
differences, group differences, and measurement using a Q-sort procedure.

Jouranl of Consulting > and Clinical Psychology, 65, 429-439.

The Q-sort, in my mind, falls under the category of the cognitive approach,
in that it relies on both memory and appraisal. I agree with LeDoux here and
that it's probably not very reliable. especially when you add to that the
'measurement' of 'groups', for something ( i.e. emotion ) that can only
exist inside of one individual and is very different for _each_ one. How do
you 'average' emotion, when we can't even measure it reliably for an
individual.

An experienced clinician administers a structured interview to a person.
The interview is videotaped. Then the clinician Q-sorts a set of 98
statements describing the person's emotional experiences and his/her
ways of coping/defending emotional experiences. The Q-sort goes from
most like to most unlike the person. A number of clinicians did this for
a number of patients. Six factors emerged. There was very good
interrater agreement for the Q-sorts of the same person. There was good
predictive and concurrent validity for the Q-sort measure and external
criteria.

Three factors had to do with types of emotional experiences (Positive
affect, Socialized negative affect, and Intensive negative affect. Three
had to do with ways of coping/defending emotional experiences
(Reality-focused responses, Externalizing defenses, and Avoidant
defenses). The emergence of two kinds of negative emotional experiences
was a novel and interesting finding.

There were interesting correlations among the factors. Positive affect
was handled by Reality-focused responses (.68) and not by Externalizing
defenses (-.37). Socialized negative affect was handled by
Reality-focused responses (.57) and not Externalizing defenses (-.61).
Intense negative affect was not handled by Reality-focused responses
(-.41) or Avoidant defenses (-.75).

This entire study is a perfect example of what I said in my post yesterday.
This study was based _entirely_ on memory. Researchers have found that when
people use memory, then tend to a) remember only the last emotional
experience, not he _whole_ experience and, b) they could not faithfully and
accurately remember either all the details or the emotional states
themselves. In other words people like to make up stories of explanation
that often don't fit the facts. Take a look at Argyris' work.

Marc

[From David Goldstein (2003.07.06.2026 EDT)]
Bill Powers Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 1:54 PM

Dear Bill and listmates,
I thought I would send you and the others the items which are judged. As
you can see, they are high level perceptions of the clinician. They are
representative of the kind of affective experiences and ways handling
them that clinicians run into.
The correlation coefficients reported in the study are pretty impressive
for a study which attempts to deal with issues/concerns that clinicians
are confronted with all the time.
David

I am attaching a rating scale version of the items for your
consideration.

areq_edited.doc (97 Bytes)