From Greg Williams (921212)

Bill Powers (921212.0300)

Might as well get the mail and write about it. What else can you
do when you're awakened at such an hour to be told you have a new
grandson (my daughter Barbara's second)?

Excellent! Sounds like a wonderful holiday present (namely, you, Mary, Ed,
Barbara, and other family members as a present to the new arrival)!!

RE: Science and religion

It will not be possible for science and religion to get together
until both realize that neither is Revealed Truth, and that both
are human ideas. Of course that is precisely what both sides have
been rejecting since the start of science. One side points the
finger at Nature, the other at God. Neither side, apparently,
notices whose finger is doing the pointing.

Well said. I'd like to add one additional observation regarding the
possibility of the "sides" getting together. In several forms of religion, and
some (at least historical) forms of science, accepting authority and having
faith have been/are now valued more (sometimes MUCH more) than adjusting
beliefs in the light of new evidence. Modern science at least gives lip
service to the idea that one's OWN finger should be doing the pointing,
unencumbered by pleas or threats from others. But that is anathema to some
modern religions. One reason that a discussion of "science vs. religion" is
appropriate on the net, in my opinion, is that the issue of self- vs. other-
determination is right at the heart of what control theory has to say about
the chances of an individual successfully coping in a disturbance-filled
world. On the other hand, high-level reference signals (within a broad
spectrum) appear to be very loosely coupled to day-to-day survival (assuming
you aren't in a holy war, of course), so I don't feel much missionary zeal for
going around begging folks to recant what they accept on authority. And if I
did, I wouldn't rail against the beliefs themselves so much as against why
they are held. As a general principle (based on PCT ideas), it would appear
that breaking correcting loops (e.g., accepting dogma uncritically) is
dysfunctional. Yet people do it all the time and seem none the worse for it.
Of course, their neighbors might be MUCH worse for it!

May your neighbors not be EXTREMELY dogmatic this holiday season,