# Secret Knowledge

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/secret-knowledge/10307>\
**Category:** CSG1999\
**Created:** [December 19, 1999, 1:21am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/secret-knowledge/10307 "1999-12-19T01:21:22Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 3\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![R\_Marken](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@R\_Marken](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/R_Marken)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 1999, 1:21am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/secret-knowledge/10307/1 "1999-12-19T01:21:22Z")

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[From Rick Marken (991218.1720)]

Bruce Nevin (991217.1601) quotes Ed Ford:

> Educators often remark that when students are asked the RTP  
> questions in a calm, respectful, curious tone, quiet  
> introspection often seems to occur. It is as if each student  
> looks into her own self and evaluates herself as she is and as  
> she wants to be, especially around others. In no other program  
> of which I'm aware do students do this. And this is where real,  
> permanent change in human beings takes place. This is what  
> Perceptual Control Theory (PCT) points to; RTP allows it to happen.

I presume you agree with this, Bruce, since you quoted it.  
So could you tell me what it is about PCT that would lead one  
to expect that asking the RTP questions in a calm, respectful,  
curious tone would lead a kid to quiet introspection; and why  
that is where the real change in human beings takes place?

You go on to say:

> the characteristic introspection by the student is mentioned  
> by more than one writer. That is very interesting, isn't it?  
> That instead of being defensive and aggressive the kid stops  
> and thinks. Remarkable, isn't it? I wonder why.

Do you have any idea why? I thought PCT points to this result.  
Are you just being coy? Is it one of those secrets that is  
revealed only unto believers in RTP?

> You have an interest in being a teacher. Maybe there is a  
> secret here.

Maybe. Do you know? If so, why aren't you telling?

> Would you like it if people were not defensive and aggressive  
> when you talk or write to them, but instead stopped and thought?

Of course!

> What do you think?

I want to know the secret, of course.

Is this a Masonic thing?

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> --  
> Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313  
> Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net  
> [http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/](http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/)

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**Author:** ![bnhpct](http://discourse.iapct.org/user_avatar/discourse.iapct.org/bnhpct/32/34_2.png) [@bnhpct](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/bnhpct)\
**Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 11:13pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/secret-knowledge/10307/2 "1999-12-20T23:13:12Z")

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[From Bruce Nevin (991220.1813 EST)]

Rick Marken (991218.1720)]

> I presume you agree with this, Bruce, since you quoted it.

I quoted it as another description of RTP that was more inclusive than the  
one on which you had based your conclusion that Ed was teaching a sequence  
of S-R stimuli to be emitted regardless of what the students did. Any  
agreement or disagreement that I might have with it has little scientific  
value because I have no empirical basis for such conclusions. I see no  
inconsistency with PCT in it.

> So could you tell me what it is about PCT that would lead one  
> to expect that asking the RTP questions in a calm, respectful,  
> curious tone would lead a kid to quiet introspection; and why  
> that is where the real change in human beings takes place?

I think it's what we've been calling "going up a level." I believe that's  
what Ed and Tom think, but I don't know. Why don't you ask them?

> > You have an interest in being a teacher. Maybe there is a  
> > secret here.
> 
> Maybe. Do you know? If so, why aren't you telling?
> 
> > Would you like it if people were not defensive and aggressive  
> > when you talk or write to them, but instead stopped and thought?
> 
> Of course!
> 
> > What do you think?
> 
> I want to know the secret, of course.
> 
> Is this a Masonic thing?

You'd have to look in what the Masons used to call the Book M (=Mundi, i.e.  
"the book of the world"). Empirical observation and test might verify  
whether kids are in interpersonal conflict with a coercive teacher or are  
going up a level and resolving conflict of other kinds. Critique of  
pedagogical texts and of RTP philosophy statements has little or no  
scientific value.

I will be away for a week, starting tomorrow morning.

&nbsp;&nbsp;Bruce Nevin

> **···**
>
> At 05:21 PM 12/18/1999 -0800, Rick Marken wrote:

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![R\_Marken](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@R\_Marken](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/R_Marken)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 1999, 8:16am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/secret-knowledge/10307/3 "1999-12-23T08:16:18Z")

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[From Rick Marken (991223.0815)]

Me:

> So could you tell me what it is about PCT that would lead one  
> to expect that asking the RTP questions in a calm, respectful,  
> curious tone would lead a kid to quiet introspection; and why  
> that is where the real change in human beings takes place?

Bruce Nevin (991220.1813 EST)--

> I think it's what we've been calling "going up a level."

I can't believe that the teachers are supposed to do the  
method of levels (MOL) on the spot, in class with disruptive  
kids by asking pre-canned questions. But if this is the case,  
I would like to see evidence that these rapid MOL sessions  
are actually taking place. Transcripts of some of these  
in-class MOL sessions would be very interesting to see.

> I believe that's what Ed and Tom think, but I don't know.  
> Why don't you ask them?

Because 1) I am having this conversation with you 2) Ed and  
Tom are not on CSGNet and 3) as far as I know, Tom doesn't  
want to hear from me.

Bruce N.

> Would you like it if people were not defensive and  
> aggressive when you talk or write to them, but instead  
> stopped and thought?

Me:

> Of course!

> I want to know the secret, of course.

> Is this a Masonic thing?

Bruce N.

> Empirical observation and test might verify whether kids are  
> in interpersonal conflict with a coercive teacher or are  
> going up a level and resolving conflict of other kinds.

This still doesn't tell how I can get people to stop and think  
rather than be defensive and aggressive when I talk or write to  
them. But it does lead me to wonder why the RTP people themselves  
are not doing the empirical observation and testing to determine  
whether kids are in interpersonal conflict with a coercive teacher  
or are going up a level and resolving conflict. I've seen no  
data on this. All I've seen are reports of lower violence rates  
in schools where RTP is implemented. This is very nice to hear  
but I've seen the same kinds of data reported for many other  
programs -- behavior mod programs, cognitive behavior therapy  
programs, etc. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find  
\_any\_ program that has \_not\_ found data that prove itself to be  
a huge success.

> Critique of pedagogical texts and of RTP philosophy  
> statements has little or no scientific value.

Why not? Isn't RTP an application that is supposed to be based  
on a scientific theory with a pretty strong empirical base?  
Can't we critique, say, an applied physics text (such as a  
satellite operations manual) in terms of the relevant science  
without having to watch the satellite operations center in  
person? If the manual says to calculate a state vector in  
the wrong way, then the manual is wrong. If the satellites are  
actually staying on orbit then we \_know\_ that the orbit ops  
people are \_not\_ calculating state vectors in the manner  
described in the manual. I think this is precisely analogous  
to the situation with RTP. The RTP ops manual tells teachers  
to control disruptive students in class. I'm questioning  
this aspect of the RTP ops manual on the basis of PCT science.  
My guess is that observation of actual school ops (where  
RTP is working) will show that teachers are not following  
the ops manual.

The data I need are not data that can be easily obtained  
from a single school visit, since there is no guarantee  
that I will witness any teachers dealing with disruptive  
students. The data I need can only be obtained from  
people who are observing RTP ops in many classrooms over  
long periods of time; I need to see how teachers are  
\_actually\_ dealing with disruptions.

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> --  
> Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313  
> Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net  
> [http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken](http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken)