Social control

[From RIck Marken (930622.0900)]

CHUCK TUCKER (930622) --

Karl Weick says "Organizations keep people busy, ..."

PCT says "People keep organizations (as perceived by each individual) busy".

Oded Maler (930622)--

I think that as a human you are in a similar situation toward social
and historical entities [as cells are to the control systems of which

they are a part].

The very fact that we are what we
are, prevents us from giving a scientific "evidence" for their

.[higher level control systems] existence.

And you are certainly free to think that. But since, as you admit, there
is no way to obtain scientific evidence about these systems, your
thoughts about them (as Bill pointed out) are simply mysticism. Nothing
wrong with mysticism -- it's just not what we do in PCT.

The circle IS a reference signal for the higher-order

I think you mean that the circle is the reference level of a controlled
percepual variable; the reference level is specified by the reference
signal in the purported higher- level system. Bill already explained
why the circle fails The Test for the Controlled Variable (even if it
resists disturbances there is no sensor or ourput device to be found
outside the group of individuals itself). You might want to read about
The Test in BCP. But somehow, I have a feeling that this means of
determinig whether or not a variable is under control will not suffice
to convince you that social variables (like the circles in CROWD) are
not controlled by an invisible control system in the sky (with a white
beard and flowing robes?). As long as they aren't giving public money
to fund research on these invisible, higher level control systems, I
have no problem with it.