[spam] Re: least action-efficiency

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2006.07.03.1545 CDT)]

Well, this seems like control of a perception of efficiency at the program level. You reduce the error of perceiving your own efficiency doing something. But the level the I and perhaps some of the others have been speaking of is genericaly at any control system level, regardless the perception. There is reference signal, perceptual signal, error signal and output signal. So, as I think Rick said, you can control the perception of efficiency, just as you can control the perception of any other program, plan, or strategy. You do that with reference levels set by principles, that perhaps have something to do with "efficiciency good - not meeting deadlines bad".

So then, I think our understanding differs where part does not equal whole, or where the PCT proposal cannot be argued solely on the basis of analysis of a single perception.

--Bryan

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[JimDundon 07.02.06 1230edt]
Rick, Brian, Martin, Bill
As usual, I was not most effective in explaining what I was talking about in my first post about least action.
What I was trying to ask is this. "Must we be concerned consciously with the efficiency in order for it to appear in our actions. My assumption is that it is not necessary to say "let's be efficient" in order for efficiency to be evidenced in purposeful behavior anymore that it is necessary to focus on purpose or control for them to be present in purposeful behavior.
The characteristic of behavior which we call efficiency must have existed prior to our ever having named it. We can only name those characteristics which are inherent in our nature.
I chose the term least action and used it in the way that Feynman uses it in his book QED. He describes finding the path of least time for light as like finding the least path of time for a lifeguard running and then swimming to rescue a drowning victim. The path of least distance has too much water in it; the path of least water has too much land in it; the path of least time is a compromise between the two.
Light has no choice. It appears to do what we say we see it do and explaining it in terms of least action demonstrates not only the nature of light but also and perhaps even more so reveals the nature of the brain. We can choose our purposes to some degree but to what degree can we choose a purpose and accomplish it with most action and by that action not indicate that it is most action or some other goal which is our purpose and not the stated goal.
Behavior not in accord with the stated goal is called neurotic by an observer. It may be however that the observer is just not satisfied with the behavior. Or it may be that both the behavior called neurotic and the behavior called therapy is a system designed to benefit both parties by making it unnecessary for each of them to engage in physical labor. But this is really getting into a level of abstraction too far removed from the focus of my original question which is meant to focus on lower-level action.
A lifeguard's experience with walking and running and swimming will combine to encourage the path of least time without him ever focusing on it in the form of concept.
My choice of words is limited by the words available and they carry a certain implication. Those implications got in the way of my asking the question clearly and anyone else understanding it. But the gist of my question and my assumption is that we need not verbally and consciously focus on least action or efficiency during an act, just as it we need not focus on control in order for any of these things to be present in behavior. That the presence of that which can be called least action, least effort is given by the design of our brains and our nervous system before it is conceptualized. We see it in animals and they never conceptualize it.
Control theory did not create control. It focused on control after control was discovered upon reflection by humans on human behavior. The word itself comes from an old French word 'controeler' who was the bookkeeper, or the one who compared registers. It came to be applied to machinery in which there was some desired value or condition to be maintained by comparing and maintaining conditions wanted with conditions as they were.
Do perceptions exist before we name them or is their existence simultaneous with their naming? That is, do we create them when we name them. It seems to be that the characteristic exists before we name it. Having named it and understood its content as efficiency we can improve on it with conscious effort, take it to a new level and make it a priority, disregarding all other considerations to the point of stupidity, if we will. That is, we can god it.
My intended question was, is a conscious focus necessary necessary in order for least action to appear in our behavior. My guess is that we need not focus on it, which is in agreement with what each of you has said.
I was not speaking of it as an observer but as a doer. That is, a doer need focus only on his purpose. In doing so, control and less action, relative to the goal and experience, will take care of themselves. He can trust his brain. That is, they will be there as a discoverable phenomenon before any focus is made on them. However, they will be found if what is called control, if what is called perception, if what is called the principal of less action, is looked for.
In cultures where there are no words for least action, control, perception, these things all exist. This is not to say that our lives are not made better by discovering and focusing on them, because that is another part of our design. The reflecting conceptualizing ability.
It would have been better perhaps to have spoken in terms which involve change and improvement over time rather than speaking of them in terms of a state [square wave, block head]. In that case behavior and control and perceptions and less action are all improved on overtime.
So restating my question:
is less action a controlled perception in purposeful behavior from the point of view of the doer, not the observer, with consideration given to experience and knowledge? That is, is the doer compelled to make choices requiring at least an unconscious awareness of the consequences of alternative action? And to choose a sum of those requiring less action to achieve the stated goal if he is engaged in perceptual control?
In some of Bill's writing he uses the illustration of someone catching a ball, in which that which upon reflection is what we call calculus, is at work. This is what I'm talking about when I say a series of choices which result in less action, or a commitment to least action relative to the goal, without a conciousized verbal commitment to least action just as there is no conciousized verbal commitment to control when control is present. When controlling for catching a ball a ballplayer is constantly correcting toward least action or he won't catch the ball.
It may be that the words he efficiency and least action are not identical in connotation but I hope that it is clear that what I was speaking of was a component of controlling for less action which in most cases can be called less effort and consequently more efficient
Anyway, I was not talking about goding efficiency. I am trying to focus on the component of behavior comparable to the lifeguard's choice of action which appears to have least action bill into it and what I would expect to see another behavior.
Bill has often given the fact that a person standing erect as an indication of control. Does this not require sensing the need for more or less action even though the actions are minute? In other words, could this be accomplished without an unconscious effort of the comparison of more or less action and the continuous choice of least action? My guess is no. In PCT terms this is controlling for error, and unless I am mistaken, controlling for error requires action.
Human being do not focus on controlling a perception while behaving they focus on achieving a goal which which according to PCT is controlling for a perception with which I agree. By the same token, error reducing behavior must take time into account.
best
Jim

[From Rick Marken (2006.07.03.2040)]

JimDundon (07.02.06 1230edt)

What I was trying to ask is this.� "Must we be concerned consciously with the efficiency in order for it to appear in our actions.�

I don't think so. But I do think we have to be controlling for it. But it would be nice to know exactly what you mean by "efficiency". A quantitative definition in terms of the variables involved in control would be best.

My assumption is that it is not necessary to say "let's be efficient" in order for efficiency to be evidenced in purposeful behavior anymore that it is necessary to focus on purpose or control for�them to be present in purposeful behavior.

I'll believe this if you can show me why this is true. Not with more words but with a mathematical analysis of computer model. .

I chose the�term least action and used it in the way that�Feynman uses it in his book QED.� He describes finding�the path of least time for light as like finding the least path of time for a lifeguard running and then swimming to rescue a drowning victim.� The path of least distance has too much water in it; the path of least water has too much land in it; the path of least time is a compromise between the two.

The "least action" described here seems to result from an agent (lifeguard) controlling the amount of water and land in its path. The agent is apparently not controlling for least time. The least time path (in this case, anyway) is a side effect of controlling for going through a reference amount of water (whatever is not "too much") and land (also whatever is not "too much"). The "least action" efficiency in this example seems to be a fortuitous side effect of controlling for particular levels of water and land in the path. A lifeguard who controlled for different amounts of water and land in the path would still get to the goal (drowning person) but not as quickly. So efficiency (in terms of least action) is not, it seems to me, a necessary result of control.

Actually, you can see that control is not necessarily efficient (line the least action sense) in my baseball catching demo (Baseball Catch). If a straight line is the most efficient path to the ball then outfielders are not particularly efficient controllers (see the plot of actual fielder movements in the second plot down at the site). The path taken by the fielder model depends on the settings of the control systems that are controlling the optical variables in this model. I can set those parameters so that the fielder takes a nearly straight line path to the ball (unlike the real fielder) but I tried to set the parameters so that the paths taken by the model fielder resemble the curved (and, thus, inefficient) paths taken by a real fielder.

A lifeguard's experience with walking and running and swimming will combine to encourage the path of least time without him ever focusing on�it in the form of concept.

Maybe. Maybe not. Some lifeguards may learn to control in a way that makes their path less efficient (in terms of time to goal) than that taken by other lifeguards. I just don't see efficiency (in the sense of least action or time to goal) as being a necessary consequence of successful controlling. I think the baseball catching model proves that.

That the presence of that which can be called least action, least effort is given by the design of our brains and our nervous system before it is conceptualized.�

I think the successful but apparently inefficient running patterns of outfielders strongly suggests that this is not the case.

�Do perceptions exist before we name them or is their existence simultaneous with their naming?���

The former.

It seems to be that the characteristic exists before we name it.��

It sure does! I obviously perceived cars before I learned to say that what I was seeing was a "car" (my first word, apparently).

My intended question was,�is�a conscious focus necessary necessary in order for least action to appear in our behavior.�

No, not a conscious focus. But there must be a reference for efficiency if you want to produce it. I think you have to control for efficiency if you want it to happen consistently. But you can control for things without being conscious of what you are controlling for or even that you are controlling. Control and consciousness are two separate phenomena.

So restating my question:
is less action�a controlled perception in purposeful behavior from the point of view of the doer,

Sometimes it is (I think it is in the case of the lifeguard) and sometimes it isn't (as with the baseball catcher).

When controlling for catching a ball a ballplayer is constantly correcting toward least action or�he won't catch the ball.�

Not true, as demonstrated by the model of a fielder catching a ball.

Bill has often given the fact that a person standing erect�as an indication of control.� Does this not require sensing the need for more or less action even though the actions are minute?

No.

Human being do not focus on controlling a perception while behaving they focus on achieving a goal which which according to PCT is controlling for a perception with which I agree.� By the same token, error reducing behavior must take time into account.��

I think you should learn how a control system actually works. I found that writing computer models helped me understand it. If you're good at math maybe you can get a handle on it that way. But I don't think you can get it by just using words.

Best

Rick

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[Jim Dundon 07.05.06.0640edt]

[From Rick Marken (2006.07.03.2040)]

JimDundon (07.02.06 1230edt)

What I was trying to ask is this. "Must we be concerned consciously with the efficiency in order for it to appear in our actions.

I don't think so. But I do think we have to be controlling for it. But it would be nice to know exactly what you mean by "efficiency". A quantitative definition in terms of the variables involved in control would be best.

My inquiry in this case includes an inquiry into the the best terming simultaneously with the inquiry using the terming. Each possibility has both a likeness to the others as well as some subtle and not so subtle historical differences in application. Among the terms are least action, most efficient, most energy efficient, least effort, least time consuming, most skillfull, most rewarding, least costly, most focused,. most time saving, and more.

My assumption is that it is not necessary to say "let's be efficient" in order for efficiency to be evidenced in purposeful behavior anymore that it is necessary to focus on purpose or control for them to be present in purposeful behavior.

I'll believe this if you can show me why this is true. Not with more words but with a mathematical analysis of computer model.

That might be the most efficient way to eliminate me from this conversation. I have run your program and it is impressive. Will you give me a handicap while I work on the math part?
  .
How about the following for starters?

Quoting From "Mind Readings"
page 49:
"The demonstration works best if the subject is very skillfull [does skillfull not mean efficient] at carrying out the intention. This means that the subject must be able to counteract most of the effect of the disturbance to the movement pattern of the intended square The subject must be in control. Subjects who can perform this demonstration skillfully [high percentage of efficicency, or, most efficiently] {after a brief period of training} [steep curve of improvement in efficiency] get the feeling that the computer is reading their minds."
Brackets mine

Efficiency is not the focus of the demonstration nor is it the intended effect. Upon examination, however, it is found to be present when looked for. Of course the concept must exist in the language in order for it to be looked for.

Could this test for a controlled variable could have been labeled a rate of learning test with no one being the wiser or a test for ability to focus, and perhaps a few more with controlled perception never being focused on and yet, control of perception, when looked for, was there. So were all the other things. Are welike we choosing [controlling] from among the ingredients which one to label the controlled variable and which ones the side effects.

Consider the outfielder who has secured his place in the big leagues.
His ability to catch a ball has been rated high in comparison to other players he competed against for the position. This means that the frequency of 'completed catches compared to attempts' is noticibly higher than that of most those he competed against. His ratio of suucessful attempts is high, his catching average is high in comparison to others.

It is reasonable to assume two things. One, that his skill, his efficiency in catching flyballs developed over time with experience, just as Bill assumes in your computer demonstration above. Two, that this time dependent variable we call skill appears in each attempt provided he intends to catch the ball. If skill is time, experience and commitment dependent as Bill says above, can we assume that they are present and improved upon moment by moment; otherwise we must assume that the ballplayer reaquires the skill from base zero with each catch; that no skill, [a time dependent variable] no sense of intrinsic error, is carried over from catch to catch and that any catching is the result of the sudden appearance and integration of the skills of running, walking, standing, hand-eye coordination, balance, etc. in a full grown man. If so, we have assumed the sudden appearance of a full grown man. We would also be assuming that it makes its appearance in the physical actions only after we name it, that is it never existed in behavior prior to our concepting it and do the same with control and focus and hand-eye coordination etc.

That would be ultimate control.

Skills, according to Bill's statement above, are time dependent, and a measure of skill improvement is a measure of improvment in efficiency. He used the data in your test as the basis for his observation. His observation was a recognition of your data proving improvement in efficiency.

I do not assume the potential for ideal behavior in living organisms. Ideal behavior is conceptual. It is this ideal that we try to put into electro mechanical devices by purifying the materials and controlling their combinations and relative impurities and in doing so develope concepts of things like least action or efficiency. Having done so we have a tendency to say these don't exist in human behavior because they don't measure up to the standard we have for the devices we have made. But the devices have to be more focused, more efficient or we would not have made them. More is the key word here because efficiency must have been experienced functionally in living things by living things before it was focusedon in the design of machinery. Their application and utility, their degrees of freedom however are much more limited.

Do you think Bill's observation that best testing results are obtained after a brief training period are recognition of improved efficiency if efficeiency is defined as skill? If so then efficiency must be present. Is it then a side effect? If so is it optional or an ever an present effect where skill is involved?

Do you think the baseball players skill is instantaneous or developed over time? Do you think he could turn off his skill, his efficiency in catching balls and still keep his job.

Best

Jim

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> Best

Rick
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[From Rick Marken (2006.07.05.1100)]

Jim Dundon (07.05.06.0640edt] --

How about the following for starters?

Quoting From "Mind Readings"
page 49:
"The demonstration works best if the subject is very skillfull [does skillfull not mean efficient]

No, it doesn't. See below.

at carrying out the intention. This means that the subject must be able to counteract most of the effect of the disturbance to the movement pattern of the intended square The subject must be in control. Subjects who can perform this demonstration skillfully [high percentage of efficicency, or, most efficiently] {after a brief period of training} [steep curve of improvement in efficiency] get the feeling that the computer is reading their minds."
Brackets mine

What you are calling "efficiency" is what I would call "control". How well a person is controlling a variable can be measured objectively (using something like average deviation of the controlled perception from the reference state). So all I was saying was that the mind reading demo works best when people control well. It doesn't matter whether the control is efficient (in any sense of that term) or not . All that matters (for the success of the demonstration) is that people control well. To do that they have to learn the skill of controlling the positions of the squares, which must involve learn how to produce the outputs (mouse movements) that compensate for the disturbances while getting the controlled square to the intended position.

Efficiency is not the focus of the demonstration nor is it the intended effect. Upon examination, however, it is found to be present when looked for. Of course the concept must exist in the language in order for it to be looked for.

Could this test for a controlled variable could have been labeled a rate of learning test with no one being the wiser or a test for ability to focus, and perhaps a few more with controlled perception never being focused on and yet, control of perception, when looked for, was there. So were all the other things. Are welike we choosing [controlling] from among the ingredients which one to label the controlled variable and which ones the side effects.

Consider the outfielder who has secured his place in the big leagues...His ratio of suucessful attempts is high, his catching average is high in comparison to others.

Yes. This is a measure of his ability to control (the variables that result in a catch). It is not necessarily a measure of efficiency. Good control does not necessarily mean efficient control.

If skill is time, experience and commitment dependent as Bill says above, can we assume that they are present and improved upon moment by moment;

Not necessarily. I think it's likely that we reach skill levels where improvement is no longer necessary or even possible.

otherwise we must assume that the ballplayer reaquires the skill from base zero with each catch

Not if we assume that the player reaches a skill asymptote.

Skills, according to Bill's statement above, are time dependent

The development of skill (through the organization and reorganization of control systems) is what occurs over time, I think.

  and a measure of skill improvement is a measure of improvment in efficiency. He used the data in your test as the basis for his observation. His observation was a recognition of your data proving improvement in efficiency.

I think you are talking about an improvement in _control_, not efficiency.

Do you think Bill's observation that best testing results are obtained after a brief training period are recognition of improved efficiency if efficeiency is defined as skill?

No, I think it is a recognition of improved _control_. Control is measured in terms of discrepancy (over time) between controlled perception and the reference for that perception; the smaller the discrepancy (on average) the better the control. Efficiency is measured in terms of the amount of time or effort expended to maintain a particular level of control relative to some determination of the minimum time or effort that is needed to maintain that level of control.

Do you think the baseball players skill is instantaneous or developed over time? Do you think he could turn off his skill, his efficiency in catching balls and still keep his job.

The player's level of skill determines how well he controls (and, thus, how valuable he is to management). His efficiency is probably irrelevant; though a very inefficient but skilled outfielder -- one who runs all over the outfield before _reliably_ catching the ball -- may actually bring the fans in.

I guess our difference is over this: I think efficiency and control are two essentially independent measures of performance and you don't. So I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

Best

Rick

···

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marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400