Successful 4th example on Mirabilis ICQ

After my unsuccessful try earlier, I was able to have a successful one.
It lasted one hour, 25 minutes. Longer than I really wanted.

Topic sequence for Sue was: surgery....coordination...confidence...

She wound up revealing a lot of personal information: mother of 3
children, divorced, truckdriver.

I guess from some of her remarks that she is impulsive, " does stupid
things " She seems to be dissatisfied in many areas of her life.

You will notice that two Spanish speaking people barged into the
conversation uninvited. They left and the conversation continued. I
found this annoying but don't know how to avoid it.

She sounded like she was getting irritated towards the end of the
converstion.

I am attaching the dialogue.

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: 4th example of MOL
Date: 1/11/98

--------------------------------------
       ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Jan 11 22:34:29 1998

--------------------------------------
<David> Hello Sue.
<Sue> Hi David
<David> Are you in the mood for a little self-exploration?
<Sue> always up to a challange
<David> OK, let's start.
<David> Do you have a topic you want to talk about?
<Sue> Not really
<David> OK. You said that you were always up to a challenge. Can you give me an example of this recently?
<Sue> Typing fast enough to keep up between the chat boxes and the messages that come in while waiting the last two days until surgery on my left hand for Carpal Tunnel
<David> Sorry to hear about the surgery. Are you concerned about it?
<Sue> No. I had the same surgery done in July on the right hand
<David> And it came out fine?
<Sue> Yes
<Sue> On top of that, I had knee surgery in September and I have three children ages 9, 11, and 15
<David> Hard to run after them. Did they cooperate?
<David> Sounds like you have had a lot of surgery. Is it easy for you?
<Sue> Somewhat. My neighbor has been the biggest help. She is taking my girls in the morning at 5 so I can go for pre-ops and again on Tuesday when I go for the surgery. My son 15 will get himself off to school
<Sue> Not really
<David> How would you describe the experience of surgery?
<Sue> I hate it because I have to get up early just to be put to sleep, then be woken up in a strange bed hours later.
<David> What would you say is the part you dislike the most?
<Sue> There is a strange sensation before being put to sleep, like I know that I'm not really going to feel good when I wake up
<Sue> Hi Bulha
<David> Sue, this is really something that is designed for two people, not three. If this is not a good time for us to do this maybe we can do it at a later time.
<Sue> This is hard to keep up with
<Bulha> Hiii
<Sue> Since Bulha hasn't said anything, I think that party is just watching
<Sue> Oh, you are there
<Sue> We can either continue or do it later, I can answer and Bulha can watch
<Bulha> yes
<David> Yes. The problem is that this is an exercise in self-exploration and you may feel inhibited because of Bulha's presence.
<David> OK.
<Bulha> HOW OLD ARE YOU,DAVID?
<Sue> No. I don't have anything to hide and exploring is fun. I just don't and never have answered any questions concerning sex
<David> I am not asking any such questions. I am simply going with the experiences which you are reporting.
<Sue> That's OK then
<David> Bulha, I don't mean to be rude but I will not be answering your question right now. I am doing a special exercise with Sue.
<Bulha> hi zeus!!!
<Zeus> hi…
<Bulha> fala com eles
<David>
<Zeus> why??
<Sue> I'm a smoker and I know that after being on O2 for the surgery, my lungs are going to feel like I've got bronchitis. Not a good feeling
<Bulha> que que eles tao falando
<David> Sue, I am distracted by the others. If it is OK, let us do it another time. My ICQ number is 6644895.
<Bulha> ?
<Bulha> sue e mulher
<Zeus> os viados estao querendo privacidade…
<Zeus> hi everyone??
<Bulha> how old are you, david???
<Sue> OK Since I don't speak Spanish, It doesn't bother me
<David> Thanks.
<Zeus>
<David> Talk to you another time.
<David> Bye for now.
<Sue> OK, Can I add you to my list?
<David> Yes.
<Bulha> David is gay
<Sue> Thanks
<Bulha> do tou agree zeus?
<Bulha> calma daniel
<Zeus> bye!who??
<David>
<David> They are gone.
<Sue> Hey David
<Sue> I thought they'd go
<David> I am here. Do you want to continue?
<Sue> Sure
<David> OK. You were describing the part of surgery which is strange for you.
<David> I don't know. Can you see my words?
<Sue> Why are you showing as being offline? And It's not really strange, just uncomfortable
<Sue> Only after you hit enter
<David> I am not sure what you are saying.
<Sue> The surgery aspects — the feeling of having bronchitis after being on O2
<Sue> As for seeing what you type, I only see it after you are done constructing the sentences
<David> Oh. There are different kinds of displays.
<David> I can see you as you are typing.
<Sue> I know
<Sue> That's strange, because I make a lot of mistakes or change the wording before I hit enter for the sentence to be displayed
<David> Is it OK for me to be in this mode?
<Sue> Yes, if you're comfortable with it
<David>
<David>
<Sue> What, No comment?
<David> Sorry. I was adjusting the display a little.
<Sue> Oh , OK
<David> Back to the exercise, OK?
<Sue> OK
<David> How did you find the experience we just had with two people joing our conversation, uninvited?
<Sue> Not surprising
<Sue> It's happened to me before
<David> First time for me.
<Sue> I don't speak spanish, so I ignore the spanish on my screen
<Sue> They usually find out it's between two people and leave or sit quiet until bored
<Sue> then they leave
<David> How did they do it?
<Sue> They saw I was open for a random chat and initiated one, which causes them to join the chat that's in session
<David> Is there any way to prevent this from happening?
<Sue> don't know, I'm still very new to this
<David> Me too.
<David> Have you ever done it?
<Sue> The best way to have a really private conversation is messaging
<David> I am not sure how to do this.
<Sue> I've never initiated a chat, but you search for a number in a catagory and initiate a chat. If they're available, you can talk. At least that's what I understand from looking at things
<David> What has your online experience been to date?
<Sue> I have only been online a couple of months and joined ICQ as my first and only chat about four days ago.
<David> What is it like to talk to people from all these different countryies?
<Sue> I have talked to people in Japan, Singapore, Paris, Peru, USA, and Canada. Probably a few other places, but not everyone is on my list. Only a select few
<Sue> It's different. A lot of times it's a kid
<David> Different than everyday conversation? Different how?
<Sue> You have to think of it like talking to an exchange student in the hallway at school. Most of them talk in english
<Sue> Remember there are cultural differences and I'm a woman. So foreign men don't think like American men
<David> What differences have you noticed?
<David> I see. How is your wrist holding up?
<Sue> I can talk to people or kids just about the same, but it's hard to talk on some of my favorite subjects, like Science Fiction movies and books, when they've never heard of them or had the experience of … OK
<Sue> reading and letting their imagination run wild
<Sue> I get a lot of books that don't have a front cover, so I get a different picture of the main character or the animals and places than the author had
<David>
<Sue> wrist is OK, but a little sore. I've been at this since about 2 this afternoon
<David> Wow. Maybe we should stop.
<Sue> Why?
<David> OK.
<David> Yes you do.
<Sue> It gives me more practice with my typing and even though I have to watch my fingers and find some of the keys, I still do OK. It's mostly fun for me and I get to try to build up my speed.
<David> Never had a typing class?
<Sue> Back in high school. Then my mother-in-law tried to make a secretary out of me. She had me typing for hours every day. I thought I had arthritis until in June when my doctor told me I have Carpal Tunnel in both hands
<David> I guess it didnt succeed, you becoming a secretary.
<Sue> I guess I've always had Carpal Tunnel, and no, I just can't seem to coordinate my memory of where each key is with each finger and control it automatically
<David> Do you play the piano?
<Sue> never had the opportunity to learn, but I did play claranet
<David>
<Sue> Never mad the marching band cause i couldn't coordinate playing and marching
<David> Tell me about the way you see yourself in terms of coordination.
<Sue> There are a lot of things I have to watch my hands on to be sure I'm doing it right. Part of that, but not a lot of it, has to do with confidence or lack thereof
<David> What is your reaction to your confidence or lack of it.
<Sue> I live with it
<David> How do you see yourself in terms of confidence?
<Sue> poor
<David> Can you give me some specifics?
<Sue> Not really
<David> Can you tell me the way you would like it to be?
<Sue> don't really know
<David> If you were confident, what difference would this make in your life?
<Sue> i guess i'd rather not be as dumb as I am most of the time
<David> What do you mean?
<Sue> If I'd had more confidence when I was younger, I would probably be in a better position than I am
<David> By position, do you mean job?
<Sue> Job, home, career, marriage, life
<David>
<David>
<Sue> By dumb, I do a lot of stupid things although I am an intelligent person and had a better high school education than most of the people I've met
<David> What is your understanding of the "stupid things" you have done?
<Sue> They are stupid and it was dumb to do those things, but i wasn't thinking ahead when i did them
<David>
<David> Is not thinking ahead something that you do often?
<Sue> yes, but then I have things I do to help me think ahead and just to think on things I need to do
<David>
<Sue> See, stupid statement
<Sue> redundant
<David> Sounds like you are mad at yourself right now.
<Sue> no
<Sue> give me a minute, i need another cup of coffee
<David> OK
<David> How does coffee help?
<Sue> doesn't i just drink a lot of it
<Sue> crisis time
<David> By the way, notice how we were talking about one topic,
<David> Talk to you later.
<Sue> washer just emptied half the water on the floor
<David> Can I save the buffer
<Sue> the buffer?
<David> Our conversation.
<David>
<Sue> probably not, but as long as we don't go offlinf, it should be in the history
<David> I thought you had to run, because of the crisis.
<Sue> yes and no. just because I have to clean up the water, doesn't mean i have to shut down my computer
<David> OK
<Sue> I have my modem's timer shut off so i can stay online as long as the phone cord doesn't get unplugged from the wall. I'll be back in three minutes
<David> OK
<David> How would you describe the way you handle crises, in general?
<Sue> good
<Sue> i keep a cool head
<Sue> i think fast
<David> And you say you don't have confidence?
<Sue> in everyday situations and when interacting with a potential employer
<David> Sue, I a afraid I have to get going soon.
<David>
<Sue> If I could back a truck around a corner, I'd have the job I want
<David> Which is?
<Sue> truckdriving duh
<David> Do you have your own truck?
<Sue> no, but my ex has a few
<David> What is your opinion of the exercise we have been doing so far?
<Sue> just general chit-chat designed to get to know me
<David> May I save the buffer and share it with colleagues?
<Sue> Sure
<David> Thanks.
<David> If you would like to do this again, my ICQ number is 6644895.
<Sue> I added you to my list, didn't I
<David> I enjoyed our conversation. Good luck with the surgery.
<Sue> thanks and i had fun
--------------------------------------

[From Bill Powers (980112.0517 mst)]

From: David Goldstein
Subject: 4th example of MOL
Date: 1/11/98

After my unsuccessful try earlier, I was able to have a successful one.
It lasted one hour, 25 minutes. Longer than I really wanted.

Topic sequence for Sue was: surgery....coordination...confidence...

She wound up revealing a lot of personal information: mother of 3
children, divorced, truckdriver.

I guess from some of her remarks that she is impulsive, " does stupid
things " She seems to be dissatisfied in many areas of her life.

You will notice that two Spanish speaking people barged into the
conversation uninvited. They left and the conversation continued. I
found this annoying but don't know how to avoid it.

She sounded like she was getting irritated towards the end of the
converstion.

I am attaching the dialogue.

That looked like Portuguese.

I think it's essential to use a chat mode in which ONLY the two people
involved are talking together, without anyone else being involved or being
able to interrupt or eavesdrop. If this isn't possible, I don't see how
confidentiality can be respected (as far as is reasonably possible on the
internet) or how the necessary focus can be maintained.

Also, I think some time has to be taken at the beginning to explain your
purpose in carrying on these conversations, and what the person cooperating
with you can expect to encounter. Let me try to outline some of the main
ideas that I think need to be understood -- your suggestions, and any that
others want to contribute, are welcome. Something like the following might
(if possible) be used as an introduction for people who want to contact you
and try the process.

···

======================================
1. My name is _________. I'm part of a project for investigating a new way
of helping people to understand themselves, called the Method of Levels.
Right now this method is experimental. It has no particular goal, except to
see where it leads.

2. The basic idea is that while people are thinking and talking about one
subject, there are always background thoughts, feelings, ideas, attitudes,
and so forth of which the person may be only partially aware. My role in
this conversation is to watch for such things and, when I think I have
identified such a background thought (subject to your verification), to
bring your attention to it, if you haven't already seen it, and ask you to
focus on it and tell me more about it. My role is not to evaluate anything
you say, or offer advice, or give you insights, or solve any problems you
may come across while we're talking. It's only to guide the conversation in
the direction of "going up a level." The resulting conversation may seem a
little strange at first, but most people seem to get the hang of it quickly.

3. Your part in the conversation is to tell me what's going through your
mind at any given time. You don't have to talk about anything you don't
want me to know, or stick to any topic, or reveal anything about yourself
that you'd rather not discuss. Basically you're acting as an observer and
explorer, and reporting to me what you find going on in your mind. You
don't have to worry about "levels" or anything like that: that's my
function in this discussion.
There aren't any "right" or "wrong" answers to my questions.

4. When we seem to have arrived at a stopping point, I hope you will give
me your opinion about the process and briefly discuss with me what you
experienced. This isn't required, but it would help both of us understand
better what went on.

5. Also, at the end, I will ask your permission to post copies of our
conversation to others involved in this project, without identifying you.
If you decide against this I will simply not store the record of the
conversation. Most people, once they have experienced this process, don't
seem to mind letting others see what went on. But I will not argue, and
will honor any instructions you give me about confidentiality.

6. You can contact me at ICQ #___________ from ________ to _________PM. Be
sure to set up your chat mode to ________________, so our conversation will
be free from interruptions. And remember that nothing is _totally_ private
on the internet, hackers having little regard for human rights.

Whether you post this as introductory material or simply bring up these
points at the start of a session, I think this information can save a lot
of time and avoid misunderstandings.

Oh, one other thing. There's a sort of time-warp effect when either person
starts typing before the other has finished. I suggest setting up
ground-rules to prevent interruptions: perhaps when either person has
finished a sentence and is waiting for a reply, the sentence can be
finished with //, meaning "go ahead." Maybe a single slash could signal a
desire to interrupt.

The kind of conversation you had with Sue doesn't seem very informative to
either person involved. Your immediate thought about ending the session was
probably the correct one.

Best,

Bill P.

I don't know how to shut out "party crashers." I will email the people
at Mirabilis ICQ and see if there is a way.

I am not sure what the message length restrictions are, but it is
possible to send a message to a person before they agree to a chat.

Your wording is a little formal for my taste but the ideas are good for
an introductory message.

I am attaching a modified version which I may be using.

Bill Powers wrote:

[From Bill Powers (980112.0517 mst)]

>From: David Goldstein
>Subject: 4th example of MOL
>Date: 1/11/98
>
>After my unsuccessful try earlier, I was able to have a successful one.
>It lasted one hour, 25 minutes. Longer than I really wanted.
>
>Topic sequence for Sue was: surgery....coordination...confidence...
>
>She wound up revealing a lot of personal information: mother of 3
>children, divorced, truckdriver.
>
>I guess from some of her remarks that she is impulsive, " does stupid
>things " She seems to be dissatisfied in many areas of her life.
>
>You will notice that two Spanish speaking people barged into the
>conversation uninvited. They left and the conversation continued. I
>found this annoying but don't know how to avoid it.
>
>She sounded like she was getting irritated towards the end of the
>converstion.
>
>I am attaching the dialogue.

That looked like Portuguese.

I think it's essential to use a chat mode in which ONLY the two people
involved are talking together, without anyone else being involved or being
able to interrupt or eavesdrop. If this isn't possible, I don't see how
confidentiality can be respected (as far as is reasonably possible on the
internet) or how the necessary focus can be maintained.

Also, I think some time has to be taken at the beginning to explain your
purpose in carrying on these conversations, and what the person cooperating
with you can expect to encounter. Let me try to outline some of the main
ideas that I think need to be understood -- your suggestions, and any that
others want to contribute, are welcome. Something like the following might
(if possible) be used as an introduction for people who want to contact you
and try the process.

1. My name is _________. I'm part of a project for investigating a new way
of helping people to understand themselves, called the Method of Levels.
Right now this method is experimental. It has no particular goal, except to
see where it leads.

2. The basic idea is that while people are thinking and talking about one
subject, there are always background thoughts, feelings, ideas, attitudes,
and so forth of which the person may be only partially aware. My role in
this conversation is to watch for such things and, when I think I have
identified such a background thought (subject to your verification), to
bring your attention to it, if you haven't already seen it, and ask you to
focus on it and tell me more about it. My role is not to evaluate anything
you say, or offer advice, or give you insights, or solve any problems you
may come across while we're talking. It's only to guide the conversation in
the direction of "going up a level." The resulting conversation may seem a
little strange at first, but most people seem to get the hang of it quickly.

3. Your part in the conversation is to tell me what's going through your
mind at any given time. You don't have to talk about anything you don't
want me to know, or stick to any topic, or reveal anything about yourself
that you'd rather not discuss. Basically you're acting as an observer and
explorer, and reporting to me what you find going on in your mind. You
don't have to worry about "levels" or anything like that: that's my
function in this discussion.
There aren't any "right" or "wrong" answers to my questions.

4. When we seem to have arrived at a stopping point, I hope you will give
me your opinion about the process and briefly discuss with me what you
experienced. This isn't required, but it would help both of us understand
better what went on.

5. Also, at the end, I will ask your permission to post copies of our
conversation to others involved in this project, without identifying you.
If you decide against this I will simply not store the record of the
conversation. Most people, once they have experienced this process, don't
seem to mind letting others see what went on. But I will not argue, and
will honor any instructions you give me about confidentiality.

6. You can contact me at ICQ #___________ from ________ to _________PM. Be
sure to set up your chat mode to ________________, so our conversation will
be free from interruptions. And remember that nothing is _totally_ private
on the internet, hackers having little regard for human rights.

Whether you post this as introductory material or simply bring up these
points at the start of a session, I think this information can save a lot
of time and avoid misunderstandings.

Oh, one other thing. There's a sort of time-warp effect when either person
starts typing before the other has finished. I suggest setting up
ground-rules to prevent interruptions: perhaps when either person has
finished a sentence and is waiting for a reply, the sentence can be
finished with //, meaning "go ahead." Maybe a single slash could signal a
desire to interrupt.

The kind of conversation you had with Sue doesn't seem very informative to
either person involved. Your immediate thought about ending the session was
probably the correct one.

Best,

Bill P.

1. My name is David. I am a Psychologist doing research on new method
of learning about yourself called the Method of Levels. I am looking
for people to have chats with who have some interest in increased
self-understanding and are willing to try this exercise with me.

2. The basic idea is that while people are thinking and talking about one
subject, there are always background thoughts, feelings, ideas, attitudes,
and so forth of which the person may be only partially aware. My role in
this conversation is to watch for such things and, when I think I have
identified such a background thought (subject to your verification), to
bring your attention to it, if you haven't already seen it, and ask you to
focus on it and tell me more about it. My role is not to evaluate anything
you say, or offer advice, or give you insights, or solve any problems you
may come across while we're talking. It's only to guide the conversation in
the direction of "going up a level." The resulting conversation may seem a
little strange at first, but most people seem to get the hang of it quickly.

3. Your part in the conversation is to tell me what's going through your
mind at any given time. You don't have to talk about anything you don't
want me to know, or stick to any topic, or reveal anything about yourself
that you'd rather not discuss. Basically you're acting as an observer and
explorer, and reporting to me what you find going on in your mind. You
don't have to worry about "levels" or anything like that: that's my
function in this discussion.
There aren't any "right" or "wrong" answers to my questions.

4. When we seem to have arrived at a stopping point, I hope you will give
me your opinion about the process and briefly discuss with me what you
experienced. This isn't required, but it would help both of us understand
better what went on.

5. Also, at the end, I will ask your permission to post copies of our
conversation to others involved in this project, without identifying you.
If you decide against this I will simply not store the record of the
conversation. Most people, once they have experienced this process, don't
seem to mind letting others see what went on. But I will not argue, and
will honor any instructions you give me about confidentiality.

6. You can contact me at ICQ #6644895. The Method of Levels is designed for
two people only at this point in its development. I will simply excuse myself from
the conversation if others join uninvited. You can recontact me in order to complete the exercise at a later time.

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: Re: Successful 4th example on Mirabilis ICQ; Bill Powers
(980112.0517 mst); Rick Marken (980112.0940)
Date: 1/12/98

[From Bill Powers (970113.0800 MST)]

From: David Goldstein
Subject: Re: Successful 4th example on Mirabilis ICQ; Bill Powers
(980112.0517 mst); Rick Marken (980112.0940)
Date: 1/12/98

I don't know how to shut out "party crashers." I will email the people
at Mirabilis ICQ and see if there is a way.

Your last correpondent indicated that she was in some special mode that
allowed anyone to participate. That implies that there are other modes.

Your wording is a little formal for my taste but the ideas are good for
an introductory message.

I am attaching a modified version which I may be using.

Good. Let's see if this has any effect.

Best,

Bill P.