# Suggestions for Freshman Seminar

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/suggestions-for-freshman-seminar/10894>\
**Category:** CSG2006\
**Created:** [October 21, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/suggestions-for-freshman-seminar/10894 "2006-10-21T17:16:55Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 8\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Richard_Marken2)\
**Post date:** [October 21, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/suggestions-for-freshman-seminar/10894/1 "2006-10-21T17:16:55Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2006.10.21.1015)]

I will be teaching a one unit Freshman seminar on PCT for Winter Quarter (starting in January) ay UCLA as part of the Fiat Lux ("Let there be light") series. I proposed the course (which I call "The Psychology of Personal Control") and it was "enthusiastically" accepted by the committee that does the evaluations (probably because they pay virtually nothing for it; all it costs them is a room;-) . The seminars are one hour a week and they are given on a pass/no pass basis. They are open to Freshmen first and anyone else if there is room (they are limited to 20).

I was thinking of using B:CP as the text but I think that may be too tough for Freshmen. Another possibility is to create a "reader" (this will be done for my by Ucla publishing) which will be a collection of papers and chapters that are relevant to the topics in the class. I might do both.

I'd appreciate suggestions on how to do this class: topics to cover, readings to include in the reader, whether to use a text or not and, if so, what the text should be, etc. The following is a the description that got the course accepted and will appear in the course catalog.

> Psych 19: The Psychology of Personal Control
> 
> Our human propensity to control world around us has produced our greatest human achievements (such as Beethoven's 9th) and our worst human failures (such as oppression and war). Examination of human controlling from point of view of theory of human behavior called control theory. Why personal control is essential for our psychological wellbeing and why it can also create problems that can actually lead to loss of control. Presentation of new approach to studying behavior (test for controlled variable) and to answering familiar questions about behavior, such as what is effect of divorce on children or how can I reduce level of stress I feel. Consideration of how scientific understanding of personal control might help us find ways to improve human condition for ourselves as well as for society as a whole.

I want the course to be reasonably rigorous but also fun for the students.

Thanks for your help.

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> ---  
> Richard S. Marken Consulting  
> marken@mindreadings.com  
> Home 310 474-0313  
> Cell 310 729-1400

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![B\_Thalhammer](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/47e85d/32.png) [@B\_Thalhammer](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/B_Thalhammer)\
**Post date:** [October 21, 2006, 11:12pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/suggestions-for-freshman-seminar/10894/2 "2006-10-21T23:12:50Z")

</div>

Rick,

Sounds to me like your main book is MSOB rather than B:CP. Perhaps the author  
can grant you the opportunity to make some xeroxes of key passages from B:CP? (I  
have heard he is a cool guy.) Maybe that arrangement would create more interest  
than putting them in with both feet.

My two bits. 🙂

--Bry

Quoting Rick Marken \<marken@MINDREADINGS.COM\>:

> **···**
>
> > [From Rick Marken (2006.10.21.1015)]
> > 
> > I will be teaching a one unit Freshman seminar on PCT for Winter  
> > Quarter (starting in January) ay UCLA as part of the Fiat Lux ("Let  
> > there be light") series. I proposed the course (which I call "The  
> > Psychology of Personal Control") and it was "enthusiastically" accepted  
> > by the committee that does the evaluations (probably because they pay  
> > virtually nothing for it; all it costs them is a room;-) . The seminars  
> > are one hour a week and they are given on a pass/no pass basis. They  
> > are open to Freshmen first and anyone else if there is room (they are  
> > limited to 20).
> > 
> > I was thinking of using B:CP as the text but I think that may be too  
> > tough for Freshmen. Another possibility is to create a "reader" (this  
> > will be done for my by Ucla publishing) which will be a collection of  
> > papers and chapters that are relevant to the topics in the class. I  
> > might do both.
> > 
> > I'd appreciate suggestions on how to do this class: topics to cover,  
> > readings to include in the reader, whether to use a text or not and, if  
> > so, what the text should be, etc. The following is a the description  
> > that got the course accepted and will appear in the course catalog.
> > 
> > \> Psych 19: The Psychology of Personal Control  
> > \>  
> > \> Our human propensity to control world around us has produced our  
> > \> greatest human achievements (such as Beethoven's 9th) and our worst  
> > \> human failures (such as oppression and war). Examination of human  
> > \> controlling from point of view of theory of human behavior called  
> > \> control theory. Why personal control is essential for our  
> > \> psychological wellbeing and why it can also create problems that can  
> > \> actually lead to loss of control. Presentation of new approach to  
> > \> studying behavior (test for controlled variable) and to answering  
> > \> familiar questions about behavior, such as what is effect of divorce  
> > \> on children or how can I reduce level of stress I feel. Consideration  
> > \> of how scientific understanding of personal control might help us find  
> > \> ways to improve human condition for ourselves as well as for society  
> > \> as a whole.
> > 
> > I want the course to be reasonably rigorous but also fun for the  
> > students.
> > 
> > Thanks for your help.
> > 
> > Best
> > 
> > Rick  
> > ---  
> > Richard S. Marken Consulting  
> > marken@mindreadings.com  
> > Home 310 474-0313  
> > Cell 310 729-1400

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Richard_Marken2)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/suggestions-for-freshman-seminar/10894/3 "2006-10-22T17:16:52Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2006.10.22.1020)]

Hi Bryan

Yes, of course. I'll use MSOB as the text. I'll also but together a little reader to supplement it.

Best

Rick

> Rick,
> 
> Sounds to me like your main book is MSOB rather than B:CP. Perhaps the author  
> can grant you the opportunity to make some xeroxes of key passages from B:CP? (I  
> have heard he is a cool guy.) Maybe that arrangement would create more interest  
> than putting them in with both feet.
> 
> My two bits. 🙂
> 
> --Bry
> 
> Quoting Rick Marken \<marken@MINDREADINGS.COM\>:
> 
> > [From Rick Marken (2006.10.21.1015)]
> > 
> > I will be teaching a one unit Freshman seminar on PCT for Winter  
> > Quarter (starting in January) ay UCLA as part of the Fiat Lux ("Let  
> > there be light") series. I proposed the course (which I call "The  
> > Psychology of Personal Control") and it was "enthusiastically" accepted  
> > by the committee that does the evaluations (probably because they pay  
> > virtually nothing for it; all it costs them is a room;-) . The seminars  
> > are one hour a week and they are given on a pass/no pass basis. They  
> > are open to Freshmen first and anyone else if there is room (they are  
> > limited to 20).
> > 
> > I was thinking of using B:CP as the text but I think that may be too  
> > tough for Freshmen. Another possibility is to create a "reader" (this  
> > will be done for my by Ucla publishing) which will be a collection of  
> > papers and chapters that are relevant to the topics in the class. I  
> > might do both.
> > 
> > I'd appreciate suggestions on how to do this class: topics to cover,  
> > readings to include in the reader, whether to use a text or not and, if  
> > so, what the text should be, etc. The following is a the description  
> > that got the course accepted and will appear in the course catalog.
> > 
> > > Psych 19: The Psychology of Personal Control
> > > 
> > > Our human propensity to control world around us has produced our  
> > > greatest human achievements (such as Beethoven's 9th) and our worst  
> > > human failures (such as oppression and war). Examination of human  
> > > controlling from point of view of theory of human behavior called  
> > > control theory. Why personal control is essential for our  
> > > psychological wellbeing and why it can also create problems that can  
> > > actually lead to loss of control. Presentation of new approach to  
> > > studying behavior (test for controlled variable) and to answering  
> > > familiar questions about behavior, such as what is effect of divorce  
> > > on children or how can I reduce level of stress I feel. Consideration  
> > > of how scientific understanding of personal control might help us find  
> > > ways to improve human condition for ourselves as well as for society  
> > > as a whole.
> > 
> > I want the course to be reasonably rigorous but also fun for the  
> > students.
> > 
> > Thanks for your help.
> > 
> > Best
> > 
> > Rick  
> > ---  
> > Richard S. Marken Consulting  
> > marken@mindreadings.com  
> > Home 310 474-0313  
> > Cell 310 729-1400

Richard S. Marken Consulting  
marken@mindreadings.com  
Home 310 474-0313  
Cell 310 729-1400

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bj\_rn\_Simonsen](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/46a35a/32.png) [@Bj\_rn\_Simonsen](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bj_rn_Simonsen)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2006, 10:09am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/suggestions-for-freshman-seminar/10894/4 "2006-10-23T10:09:43Z")

</div>

[From Bjorn Simonsen (2006.10.22,12:10)]

From Rick Marken (2006.10.21.1015)

Rick, you may read this through or skip it. I think it  
is wonderful to know that in January 2007 twenty Freshmen come back week after  
week to hear you explaining why people behave as they do. You are seeding a  
mustard seed, Rick.

I see you will refer to MSOB and that is  
understandable. I appreciate Bill’s definitions and stories there.

Particular when I read the book I mark that there is a  
World out there, a world that can affect the behavior of people (d). And I mark  
that people are able to tell stories, theories and more because they have  
experiences ( r ). In this World out there people behave because they now and  
then are conscious upon and wish to relive their experiences (actions and  
feedback).

This is all what there is. There is nothing more.  
These concepts describe our lives and happiness.

I think the Freshmen should be explained that you are  
going to describe what people need to know to live and to experience happiness  
the way William T Powers explains why people behave as they do in the “reality”  
that Karl R. Popper describes in “The Self and its Brain”. And you should tell  
the Freshmen to be silent in one minute and appreciate that they are the only  
20 people in California who experience this happening in January 2007.

> I’d appreciate suggestions on how to do this  
> class: topics to cover, ….

> The following is a the description that got the  
> course accepted and

> will appear in the course catalog.

I see that you know what to do to Fiat Lux. I know I am too frank, but if I put myself in  
your place I would have thought in this way;

> Psych 19: The Psychology of Personal Control

> 

> Our human propensity to control world around us  
> has produced our

> greatest human achievements (such as Beethoven’s  
> 9th) and our worst

> human failures (such as oppression and war).

Why not start the first hour with  
Beethoven’s 9th (10 – 15 seconds) and ask them what music is. Show them  
the notes on a paper and ask them if that is music. Ask them if the paper on  
which Beethoven wrote his 9th symphony is music. Show them the  
Beethoven’s 9th CD and ask  
if that is the music. Play Beethoven’s 9th (10 – 15 seconds) again and ask if the vibration in the air that  
reach the students ears is music (d).

Tell the students that the paper  
with notes on, the CD and the vibrations were Disturbances perceived through  
eyes and ears. They represented physical objects.

Music is not a physical product.

Music is a product of human mind.  
Music is a Brain state. Music is a state inside a part of us ( r). If we will  
express Beethoven’s 9th we play it or we sing it. When we play it or  
sing it we exercise actions. The actions are product of our mind. The actions  
and the consequences of our actions can be perceived.

Tell the Freshmen that all of them  
sitting there remember stories, myths, pieces of music, mathematical theorems,  
scientific theories. If anybody wishes to express some of these products of his  
mind, other people may perceive their actions.

Some people perceived the detonation  
of a nuclear bomb developed and constructed according to a scientific theory.

You are in this way visiting Carl  
Popper’s definition of Reality.

The student learn that there is a  
World 1 (out there), they know that objects, substances and fields in World 1  
can affect the behavior of other objects out there. They also know that the  
human Brain may remember a story or a theory.  
This is the World 2. The World 2 is states of the human brain. When we  
express something in World 2 for ourselves, we remember our Experiences. We are  
able to develop our World 2 when we imagine something.

And the students learn that the  
World 3 is products of the human mind, products of World 2.

> Examination of human

> controlling from point of view of theory of human  
> behavior called

> control theory. Why personal control is essential  
> for our

> psychological well-being and why it can also  
> create problems that can

> actually lead to loss of  
> control.

Ask the Freshmen why they sit there  
and listen to your lecture. Ask them why they chose this certain lecture. Ask  
them why one of them behaved different from another sitting there. Explain that  
there are many different “references” among the Freshmen. Explain that there  
has been many different disturbances influencing the different Freshmen and  
that the Freshmen have acted in different ways before they sit there in front  
of you.

Tell them that you are going to tell  
hem a story that may change some of them. It depends what references they have  
at the top levels if they will implement your story in daily life.

Of course the implementation of your  
story will create problems that can lead to loss of control. Ask them how.

I think Tim Carey presents an  
exemplary problem (conflict) in his  
“The Methods of Levels” chapter one. He has also a DVD expressing a conflict,  
but the DVD doesn’t function very well on my PC. I think the story in chapter  
one may be retold. It is a simple conflict and we can imagine the effect of  
conflicts.

> Presentation of new approach to

> studying behavior (test for controlled variable)  
> and to answering

> familiar questions about behavior, such as what  
> is effect of divorce

> on children or how can I reduce  
> level of stress I feel.

You can test what people control  
better than me and I am sure you will present a nice story. Which story are you  
going to present?

When you answer familiar questions  
about behavior you have your chance to tell them that people do not control  
their behavior. You get a new chance to tell the Freshmen that we are able to  
test what perceptions people control when they behave.

Why not enter into an agreement with  
a Freshman to leave the theatre for five minutes at a certain moment of time  
and return after five minutes. When she is out you can ask the students why she  
left. And you will get a lot of proposals to references ( r).

I think you should spend a whole  
hour on emotions and weight that people are stressed because of three things. They  
have a goal. They have an inner state that they can feel. And they are blocked  
in executing their goal. I would also ask the Freshmen which three tings happen  
when we fall in love. I would have spent many minutes explaining why people  
behave so different, funny and unexpected the first hours (days) they fall in  
love. It is a nice example to end your lecture with r, d, actions, feedback,  
conflicts and emotions.

I think you can do it better and I  
wish you Luck.

bjorn

> **···**
>

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Tracy\_Harms1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Tracy\_Harms1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Tracy_Harms1)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/suggestions-for-freshman-seminar/10894/5 "2006-10-23T18:58:25Z")

</div>

[from Tracy Harms (2006.10.23,12:00)]

Bjorn Simonsen (2006.10.22,12:10) wrote:

> ...  
> Why not start the first hour with Beethoven's 9th  
> (10 � 15 seconds) and ask them what music is. Show  
> them the notes on a paper and ask them if that  
> is music. Ask them if the paper on which Beethoven  
> wrote his 9th symphony is music. Show them the  
> Beethoven's 9th CD and ask if that is the music.  
> Play Beethoven's 9th (10 � 15 seconds) again and  
> ask if the vibration in the air that reach the  
> students ears is music (d).
> 
> Tell the students that the paper with notes on,  
> the CD and the vibrations were Disturbances  
> perceived through eyes and ears. They represented  
> physical objects.

It does not seem right to call these disturbances.  
Even if we only see a piece of paper (for example) by  
way of disturbances the paper itself is not a set of  
disturbances; it's paper. (Moreover, PCT does not  
imply that all perception occurs by way of  
disturbances, though it does imply that disturbances  
are of special importance.)

> Music is not a physical product. Music is a product  
> of human mind. Music is a Brain state. Music is a  
> state inside a part of us ( r). If we will express  
> Beethoven's 9th we play it or we sing it. When we  
> play it or sing it we exercise actions. The actions  
> are product of our mind. The actions and the  
> consequences of our actions can be perceived.
> 
> ...
> 
> You are in this way visiting Carl Popper�s

definition

> of Reality. The student learn that there is a World

1

> (out there), they know that objects, substances and  
> fields in World 1 can affect the behavior of other  
> objects out there. They also know that the human

Brain

> may remember a story or a theory. This is the World

2.

> The World 2 is states of the human brain. When we  
> express something in World 2 for ourselves, we

remember

> our Experiences. We are able to develop our World 2  
> when we imagine something. And the students learn

that

> the World 3 is products of the human mind, products

of

> World 2.

This schema should not be called a definition. Also,  
World 2 is not quite states of brains, human or  
otherwise. It is, instead, the world of subjective  
experience. While we are in agreement that subjective  
experience depends upon living brains and the states  
that occur therein, it would not be accurate to  
conflate brain states with what Popper called world  
two. Bill Powers is quite inclined to assert an  
equivalence between subjective experience and brain  
state, but he seems well aware that PCT does not  
contain such a theory within it. For an examination  
of the differences between these two things, I highly  
recommend \_Critique of Impure Reason: An Essay on  
Neurons, Somatic Markers, and Consciousness\_ by Peter  
Munz (1999, ISBN:0275963845)

As for whether music should be considered one thing or  
another, my guess is that it is best to use the word  
ambivilously. As a world three object, a symphony is  
not the paper it is written on, nor the vibrations  
that occur in its performance, nor the listening  
experience. Should we include this philosophical  
distinction in a freshman-level course on perception?  
Perhaps not. I don't see it as crucial to the  
problems at hand.

Tracy Harms

> **···**
>
> \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_  
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---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Richard_Marken2)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/suggestions-for-freshman-seminar/10894/6 "2006-10-23T23:10:00Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2006.10.23.1610)]

Thanks for the suggestions, Bjorn.

Best

Rick

[From Bjorn Simonsen (2006.10.22,12:10)]

from Rick Marken (2006.10.21.1015)

Rick, you may read this through or skip it. I think it is wonderful to know that in January 2007 twenty Freshmen come back week after week to hear you explaining why people behave as they do. You are seeding a mustard seed, Rick.

I see you will refer to MSOB and that is understandable. I appreciate Bill’s definitions and stories there.

Particular when I read the book I mark that there is a World out there, a world that can affect the behavior of people (d). And I mark that people are able to tell stories, theories and more because they have experiences ( r ). In this World out there people behave because they now and then are conscious upon and wish to relive their experiences (actions and feedback).

This is all what there is. There is nothing more. These concepts describe our lives and happiness.

I think the Freshmen should be explained that you are going to describe what people need to know to live and to experience happiness the way William T Powers explains why people behave as they do in the “reality” that Karl R. Popper describes in “The Self and its Brain”. And you should tell the Freshmen to be silent in one minute and appreciate that they are the only 20 people in California who experience this happening in January 2007.

> I'd appreciate suggestions on how to do this class: topics to cover, ….

> The following is a the description that got the course accepted and  
> will appear in the course catalog.

I see that you know what to do to Fiat Lux. I know I am too frank, but if I put myself in your place I would have thought in this way;

> Psych 19: The Psychology of Personal Control

> Our human propensity to control world around us has produced our

> greatest human achievements (such as Beethoven's 9th) and our worst  
> human failures (such as oppression and war).

Why not start the first hour with Beethoven's 9th (10 – 15 seconds) and ask them what music is. Show them the notes on a paper and ask them if that is music. Ask them if the paper on which Beethoven wrote his 9th symphony is music. Show them the Beethoven's 9th CD and ask if that is the music. Play Beethoven's 9th (10 – 15 seconds) again and ask if the vibration in the air that reach the students ears is music (d).

Tell the students that the paper with notes on, the CD and the vibrations were Disturbances perceived through eyes and ears. They represented physical objects.

Music is not a physical product.

Music is a product of human mind. Music is a Brain state. Music is a state inside a part of us ( r). If we will express Beethoven's 9th we play it or we sing it. When we play it or sing it we exercise actions. The actions are product of our mind. The actions and the consequences of our actions can be perceived.

Tell the Freshmen that all of them sitting there remember stories, myths, pieces of music, mathematical theorems, scientific theories. If anybody wishes to express some of these products of his mind, other people may perceive their actions.

Some people perceived the detonation of a nuclear bomb developed and constructed according to a scientific theory.

You are in this way visiting Carl Popper’s definition of Reality.

The student learn that there is a World 1 (out there), they know that objects, substances and fields in World 1 can affect the behavior of other objects out there. They also know that the human Brain may remember a story or a theory. This is the World 2. The World 2 is states of the human brain. When we express something in World 2 for ourselves, we remember our Experiences. We are able to develop our World 2 when we imagine something.

And the students learn that the World 3 is products of the human mind, products of World 2.

> Examination of human

> controlling from point of view of theory of human behavior called

> control theory. Why personal control is essential for our

> psychological well-being and why it can also create problems that can

> actually lead to loss of control.

Ask the Freshmen why they sit there and listen to your lecture. Ask them why they chose this certain lecture. Ask them why one of them behaved different from another sitting there. Explain that there are many different “references” among the Freshmen. Explain that there has been many different disturbances influencing the different Freshmen and that the Freshmen have acted in different ways before they sit there in front of you.

Tell them that you are going to tell hem a story that may change some of them. It depends what references they have at the top levels if they will implement your story in daily life.

Of course the implementation of your story will create problems that can lead to loss of control. Ask them how.

I think Tim Carey presents an exemplary problem (conflict) in his “The Methods of Levels” chapter one. He has also a DVD expressing a conflict, but the DVD doesn’t function very well on my PC. I think the story in chapter one may be retold. It is a simple conflict and we can imagine the effect of conflicts.

> Presentation of new approach to

> studying behavior (test for controlled variable) and to answering

> familiar questions about behavior, such as what is effect of divorce

> on children or how can I reduce level of stress I feel.

You can test what people control better than me and I am sure you will present a nice story. Which story are you going to present?

When you answer familiar questions about behavior you have your chance to tell them that people do not control their behavior. You get a new chance to tell the Freshmen that we are able to test what perceptions people control when they behave.

Why not enter into an agreement with a Freshman to leave the theatre for five minutes at a certain moment of time and return after five minutes. When she is out you can ask the students why she left. And you will get a lot of proposals to references ( r).

I think you should spend a whole hour on emotions and weight that people are stressed because of three things. They have a goal. They have an inner state that they can feel. And they are blocked in executing their goal. I would also ask the Freshmen which three tings happen when we fall in love. I would have spent many minutes explaining why people behave so different, funny and unexpected the first hours (days) they fall in love. It is a nice example to end your lecture with r, d, actions, feedback, conflicts and emotions.

I think you can do it better and I wish you Luck.

bjorn

Richard S. Marken Consulting  
marken@mindreadings.com  
Home 310 474-0313  
Cell 310 729-1400

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Powers1)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/suggestions-for-freshman-seminar/10894/7 "2006-10-24T14:08:02Z")

</div>

[From Bill Powers (2006.10.24.0735 MDT)]

Tracy Harms (2006.10.23,12:00) --

> It does not seem right to call these disturbances.  
> Even if we only see a piece of paper (for example) by  
> way of disturbances the paper itself is not a set of  
> disturbances; it's paper.

Saying it "does not seem right" is not much of an explanation. Rather than just taking a position and defending it, I suggest that you now think up 5 examples in which a piece of paper disturbs a controlled perception. I'll give you a start: you are looking for your glasses, but someone put the newspaper down on top of them. That leaves four more -- please include at least one in which the fact that what you're seeing is a piece of paper disturbs a variable you're controlling for.

I remind you that in PCT a disturbance is simply one or more variables outside the feedback loop of a control system that can alter the state of a controlled perception independently of the action of the control system. Nothing is implied about the direction or size of the effect of the disturbing variable (other than that the effect be detectable by the controller).

For example, if you're trying to push your stalled car out of the traffic, and I come along and, without being asked, help you push, my pushing force is disturbing at least one of your controlled variables.

> &nbsp;&nbsp;While we are in agreement that subjective  
> experience depends upon living brains and the states  
> that occur therein, it would not be accurate to  
> conflate brain states with what Popper called world  
> two. Bill Powers is quite inclined to assert an  
> equivalence between subjective experience and brain  
> state, but he seems well aware that PCT does not  
> contain such a theory within it.

In PCT as I have proposed it, the theory is that the world of subjective experience consists of the set of all neural signals that are in awareness at the moment (see Glossary in B:CP). Awareness is what is not part of PCT, since I have proposed nothing about its nature. Perception, however, defined as the presence of one or more signals in afferent neural pathways, is definitely part of the theory. And the idea that perception occurs in the brain and is qualitatively different from its assumed referents is an essential part of PCT. Just look at the basic block diagram (which of course is another perception and therefore part of Popper's World 2.).

Also, if you look at that diagram, you will see that part of it (the feedback function, input quantity, and disturbance) are shown as being outside the control system and thus outside the nervous system. They therefore represent Popper's World 1. This shows us that Popper's World 1 is simply a subset of World 2, and exists only as imagined perceptions inside the brain.

...according to PCT, that is, which is a theory existing in World 2. So far, PCT seems to be in accord with both data and informal experience, which is to say that nothing we know formally or informally contradicts this picture. At least, nothing that I know of. If you know of something that rules out this picture, this would be a good time to mention it.

Best,

Bill P.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bj\_rn\_Simonsen](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/46a35a/32.png) [@Bj\_rn\_Simonsen](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bj_rn_Simonsen)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/suggestions-for-freshman-seminar/10894/8 "2006-10-24T18:19:04Z")

</div>

[From Bjorn Simonsen  
(2006,10.24,20:30 EUST)]

from Tracy Harms (2006.10.23,12:00)

Nice to see you on net.

> It does not seem right to call these disturbances.

> Even if we only see a piece of paper (for example)  
> by

> way of disturbances the paper itself is not a set  
> of

> disturbances; it’s paper. (Moreover, PCT does not

> imply that all perception occurs by way of

> disturbances, though it does imply that  
> disturbances

> are of special importance.)

I am not sure if I understand why you write what you  
do above. I agree that PCT does not imply that all perceptions occur by way of  
disturbances. PCT is a control theory and when we perceive without controlling,  
I don’t think we shall use concepts from PCT.

One definition for control is “producing repeatable  
consequences by variable actions” and very often we perceive variables from the  
extern world, doing nothing.

When we perceive without controlling, neither I think  
it is correct to call perceptions from the notes of Beethoven’s 9th  
Symphony printed on a paper for a disturbance (etc.)

But if we control for something I think everything  
affecting our sensing cells are disturbance in PCT nomenclature. Maybe I am  
wrong and you will correct me.

> > I tried to justice Karl Popper’s World 1, 2  
> > and 3.

> This schema should not be called a  
> definition. Also,

> World 2 is not quite states of brains, human or

> otherwise.  
> It is, instead, the world of subjective

> experience.  
> While we are in agreement that subjective

> experience depends upon living brains and the  
> states

> that occur therein, it would not be accurate to

> conflate brain states with what Popper called  
> world

> two.

I really meant that different states  
of human brains is the same as different subjective experiences. Maybe I am too  
inexact.

> Bill Powers is quite inclined to assert an

> equivalence between subjective experience and  
> brain

> state, but he seems well aware that PCT does not

> contain such a theory within it.

OK, but isn’t it obvious reasons for  
saying that the parts of the brain are in a certain state when a person wishes  
to relieve an experience?

> For an examination

> of the differences between these two things, I  
> highly

> recommend \_Critique of Impure Reason: An Essay on

> Neurons, Somatic Markers, and Consciousness\_ by  
> Peter

> Munz (1999, ISBN:0275963845).

Thank you. I have already reserved the book.

> As for whether music should be considered one  
> thing or

> another, my guess is that it is best to use the  
> word

> ambivilously

I agree, also I wish to use words  
ambitiously. I think I could be better.

“And the students learn that the World 3 is products of  
the human mind, products of World 2.”

> As a world three object, a symphony is

> not the paper it is written on, nor the vibrations

> that occur in its performance, nor the listening

> experience.

Didn’t I say the same some inexact?

bjorn