SV: Re: SV: Re: SV:behavior

[From Bjoern Simonsen (990327;09:50 EU-time)]

[From Rick Marken (990324.0720)]

If your hand is perfectly closed in a position, there is no
modification in the arm and there is no change that is
detectable externally


But the arm is still "detectable externally" even
when there is no change in it, is it not? See my post on
speaking of "variables" [Rick Marken (990320.0820)] for
discussion of perception when there is no change in the
value of perceptual variables.

I did read your [Rick Marken (990320.0820)]

The most interesting sentence was:

.............An important part of learning
PCT -- and seeing it's relevance to everyday life -- is learning
to see the world in terms of _perceptual variables_.

In other respects is it my opinion that all objects in my world modificate over time. And if it is not detectable externally for me, I have to make an instrument that perceives the modifications (if I am interested).

The locations of objects are also variable; the objects are where
they are now but I can change the state of the location variable by
moving the objects or by imagining different states of this variable:
the computer could be over there; the rocking chair over here, etc

Of course.

I think one of the first courses in PCT should be about how we can
see our world of experience in terms of perceptual _variables_.
The course would be about how the mathematical abstraction for a
variable (the symbol x) can represent any variable aspect of our
world of experience: x = position of a cursor, color of the walls,
loudness of the radio, toastiness of the bagel, temperature of the
air, neatness of the room, lovingness of a relationship, etc. At any
moment we are typically experiencing a particular state of some or
all of these perceptual variables; but if we pay attention we can
notice that the states of these variables change -- on their own
(like the temperature of the air) or as a result of our efforts to
bring these variables to particular states (like bringing the
toastiness of the bagel to just the right toastiness).

I agree.

The study of perceptual variables is economical (if not easy)
because it requires only one piece of lab equipment: the mind.
It's the kind of research everyone can do, even those who don't
want to do research.

I dont agree.

I need an instrument to detect that your beige computer changes color from hour to hour ( if there is a window in your computer room)
I also need an instrument to detect the modifications of my blood pressure over time.

Have you ever thougt about a world consisting of objects where there are no modifications (at all).

Back to [From Rick Marken (990324.0720)]

Have I modified an object when I change the relationship between
cup and fork from "next to" to "behind"?

Have I modified an object when I change the relationship between
cup and fork from "next to" to "behind"?

Yes, if the object consists of the system cup and forc.
A human being may be an object, but a family of forur or an other organisation may also be an object.

People can't really "give" feedback. But I don't want to even
start to get into _that_.

May be an other time?

Bill wrote a definition in B:CP:
NEGATIVE FEEDBACK: A feedback situationin which a disturbance acting on any variable in the feedback loop gives raise to an effect at the point of disturbance which opposes the effect of the disturbance.

I am trying to learn PCT.
Is there a feedback loop in the loop: Behavioral control system hierarchy, behavioral acts, environment with your comments, my sensory results, behavioral control system hierarchy?
Am I wrong when I think about your comments as disturbances in a feedback loop?

Maybe you could tell us what you do and why you are interested
in PCT.

I did tell that in [Bjoern Simonsen, (990310,2230 EU-time)]

And I am interested in PCT because I hope to find a model/theory for purposeful and teleological behavior (Wieners way of using the word teleological)