"Switching"?

Bruce Nevin (991217.1538 EST)--

... in this "switching" thread I was talking about priority as a basis for
choice, not temporal order. I couldn't see a necessary connection between
changing gain and making a choice. With your clarification, I now do. I see
that by changing relative gain of two systems that are in conflict over a
CV, the value of the CV approaches more closely to the reference for one
system, even "close enough" to have the effect of a choice.

That example really refers to the _means_ of carrying out a choice. It
doesn't address the basis on which the choice is decided, prior to the
action that carries it out. It's odd, but if you really have a "basis" for
making a choice, there's no choice to be made. Suppose you have an
algorithm for choosing among cookies: measure them and take the largest
one. Presented with a plate of cookies, you need only determine which is
the largest one and take it. There are no alternatives to choose among. You
have to make a choice only when your measurement reveals two or more
cookies of the same size, so the basis breaks down. And then, of course,
you are at a loss: there is no basis for choosing any one of the largest
ones. Perhaps you invent a basis: you number the otherwise equal cookies 1
through n where n is less than 7, and roll a die. That removes the
necessity of choosing, and you simply do as the number on the die
instructs. The only way to make a _true_ choice is to reorganize at random.
Any basis for making a choice really removes the need for making a choice
by removing all alternatives but one.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (991218.0636 EST)]

Bill Powers said

The only way to make a _true_ choice is to reorganize at random.
Any basis for making a choice really removes the need for making a choice
by removing all alternatives but one.

This certainly explains why you are so adverse to, "I see you have
chosen..." The speaker would have to know that your actions are the result
of random reorganization. Since this technical use of the word "choice" may
be misleading (I was misled before this post), perhaps the term should be
avoided or replaced by a term such as "random choice".

Bruce Gregory

[From Bill Curry (991218.0725 EST)]

Bill Powers (991216.1008 MDT)]

<snip>

See Kent McClellan's simulations of conflict. Error is not "tolerated."
Depending on gain, it produces a certain amount of output signal. If there
is error in a conflicting system, it, too produces a certain amount of
output signal.

Could I have a citation on this please. I checked on the the website without success.

Regards,

Bill

···

--
William J. Curry, III 941-395.0088
Capticom, Inc. capticom@olsusa.com

[From Bill Powers (991218.1514 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (991218.0636 EST)--

This certainly explains why you are so adverse to, "I see you have
chosen..." The speaker would have to know that your actions are the result
of random reorganization. Since this technical use of the word "choice" may
be misleading (I was misled before this post), perhaps the term should be
avoided or replaced by a term such as "random choice".

No, that isn't my reason. When an intelligent thoughtful layman uses a
phrase like "I see you have chosen X" I understand the meaning to be
something like "I see that you have deliberately set achieving X as a
goal." No conflict or dilemma is implied. However, even intelligent
thoughtful layman seldom show any signs of having thought through what they
mean by their words, so I would probably be mistaken in assuming I know
what those words mean to their utterer, if anything.

I have objected to someone's saying "I see you have chosen ..." because it
is highly unlikely that anyone can see such a thing just by observing
actions. Whether "choose" means setting as a goal, deliberately selecting,
or picking one alternative from among several by applying some decision
rule, it is not the sort of thing that can be detected by an outside
observer just by watching actions.

Incidentally, it's a bit insulting to be told that an opinion based on
well-thought-out reasoning is merely an aversion. My objection to the
practice you mention is not based on some mindless emotional reaction, but
on reasons which I have tried to explain. If anyone's opinions are based on
emotions here, I would say it is the person whose opinions seem based on
neither theory nor fact.

By the way, have you ever opened a piece of shrink-wrapped software on
which it says, and I quote an example in front of me, "By breaking the seal
on this disk pack, you accept the terms of the IDG Books Worldwide License
Agreement included in this book"?

Of course I have broken the seal, and I accept no such terms. The statement
on that label is false.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (991218.1538 MDT)]

Bill Curry (991218.0725 EST)--

See Kent McClellan's simulations of conflict. Error is not "tolerated."
Depending on gain, it produces a certain amount of output signal. If there
is error in a conflicting system, it, too produces a certain amount of
output signal.

Could I have a citation on this please. I checked on the the website

without success.

Hmm. Anybody got that reference? I saw Kent's simulations at a CSG meeting,
and I think they have been published but I don't know where.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (991218.1805 EST)]

Bill Powers (991218.1514 MDT)

Incidentally, it's a bit insulting to be told that an opinion based on
well-thought-out reasoning is merely an aversion. My objection to the
practice you mention is not based on some mindless emotional reaction, but
on reasons which I have tried to explain. If anyone's opinions are based

on

emotions here, I would say it is the person whose opinions seem based on
neither theory nor fact.

Should I interpret you last sentence as insulting? Or were you referring to
someone else?

Bruce Gregory

from [ Marc Abrams (991218.1902) ]

[From Bill Powers (991218.1538 MDT)]

Hmm. Anybody got that reference? I saw Kent's simulations at a CSG

meeting,

and I think they have been published but I don't know where.

How about Dag's Video's. Kent rarely posts.

Marc

Could I have a citation on this please.

I do not have news of the publication of McClelland's paper on this. What
I have is a working paper by Kent McClelland: "The Collective Control of
Perceptions: Toward a person-centered Sociology." Draft of 15 August
1996. McClelland is Professor of Sociology, Grinnell College, Grinnell,
IA, 50112-0810, Phone 515-269-3134, e-mail mcclel@ac.grin.edu.

--Phil R.

···

On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, concerning McClelland's simulations of conflict, Bill Curry wrote: