# Target Model Exercise

I’m working up some materials for use in familiarizing people with the Target Model and PCT. One involves what I’m calling “The Reflections Exercise” in which the reader reflects on a personal experience in light of the Target Model (PCT) and then tries to identify the elements of the experience that relate to the components of the Target Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the exercise yourself, I’d be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

“Assistance at a Distance”

ReflectionsExercise.pdf (477 KB)

Fred

Is it possible to just use the input
quantity/output quantity (for a steady state situation) i/o = (d+f)/goe
what would this mean in your diagram. or maybe f= gfo

So all one does is look at the ratio of
the input/output quantities for each individual in an economy. What would this
mean?

Regards

Gavin

I’m working up some materials for use in
familiarizing people with the Target Model and PCT. One involves what
I’m calling “The Reflections Exercise” in which the reader
reflects on a personal experience in light of the Target Model (PCT) and then
tries to identify the elements of the experience that relate to the components
of the Target Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the
exercise yourself, I’d be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing
Partner

Distance
Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

“Assistance
at a Distance”

···

bob hintz 2011.05.25

Fred, would it confuse most of your audience (business people?) if you point out that each of the steps in doing the laundry or buying the groceries is also an instance of the target model. I suspect the grocery list is an error signal regarding the state of your home’s cupboard supplies. When one person notices that some item is almost gone, he or she is supposed to write it down. “Almost gone” is a fuzzy perception, and discussions might occur regarding who used something last, why something was not on the list, etc. Purchasing the items on the list is serves a more important goal (supplies) which is part of a more important or maybe abstract goal of “pleasant home life”.

It is also probable that whoever goes to the store might purchase some items that were not on the list. Would this be an example of multi-tasking, i.e., reducing two separate sets of error signals in one trip.

A second feature of a list is the problem of communication. The last time I went to the store to get an item upon request, I knew enough to ask about the size and whether or not to get name brand or generic. I did not know about cheese with 1/3 the calories versus 1/2 the calories, so I had to guess what she wanted as I forgot to take my cell phone. Sometimes just finding something turns out to be a major task, especially when I finally find out that they don’t have it. Then I have to decide how important it is and whether I should go to a different store or just leave it on the list.

In general, I like your imagery just fine.

bob

···

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Gavin Ritz garritz@xtra.co.nz wrote:

Fred

Is it possible to just use the input
quantity/output quantity (for a steady state situation) i/o = (d+f)/goe
what would this mean in your diagram. or maybe f= gfo

So all one does is look at the ratio of
the input/output quantities for each individual in an economy. What would this
mean?

Regards

Gavin

Im working up some materials for use in
familiarizing people with the Target Model and PCT. One involves what
Im calling The Reflections Exercise in which the reader
reflects on a personal experience in light of the Target Model (PCT) and then
tries to identify the elements of the experience that relate to the components
of the Target Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the
exercise yourself, Id be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing
Partner

Distance
Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

“Assistance
at a Distance”

Fred Nickols 2011.05.25.0833 MST

Thanks for taking the time to comment, Bob. You are correct that each step could also be illustrated and I probably will get the notion that finer-grained behaviors can also be understood using the Target Model. Where that leads, I think, is to the hierarchy or at least a hierarchy. I think I want them to get their feet wet before I overwhelm them with complexity.

Fred Nickols

···

From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Hintz
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:17 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Target Model Exercise

bob hintz 2011.05.25

Fred, would it confuse most of your audience (business people?) if you point out that each of the steps in doing the laundry or buying the groceries is also an instance of the target model. I suspect the grocery list is an error signal regarding the state of your home’s cupboard supplies. When one person notices that some item is almost gone, he or she is supposed to write it down. “Almost gone” is a fuzzy perception, and discussions might occur regarding who used something last, why something was not on the list, etc. Purchasing the items on the list is serves a more important goal (supplies) which is part of a more important or maybe abstract goal of “pleasant home life”.

It is also probable that whoever goes to the store might purchase some items that were not on the list. Would this be an example of multi-tasking, i.e., reducing two separate sets of error signals in one trip.

A second feature of a list is the problem of communication. The last time I went to the store to get an item upon request, I knew enough to ask about the size and whether or not to get name brand or generic. I did not know about cheese with 1/3 the calories versus 1/2 the calories, so I had to guess what she wanted as I forgot to take my cell phone. Sometimes just finding something turns out to be a major task, especially when I finally find out that they don’t have it. Then I have to decide how important it is and whether I should go to a different store or just leave it on the list.

In general, I like your imagery just fine.

bob

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Gavin Ritz garritz@xtra.co.nz wrote:

Fred

Is it possible to just use the input quantity/output quantity (for a steady state situation) i/o = (d+f)/goe what would this mean in your diagram. or maybe f= gfo

So all one does is look at the ratio of the input/output quantities for each individual in an economy. What would this mean?

Regards

Gavin

I’m working up some materials for use in familiarizing people with the Target Model and PCT. One involves what I’m calling “The Reflections Exercise” in which the reader reflects on a personal experience in light of the Target Model (PCT) and then tries to identify the elements of the experience that relate to the components of the Target Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the exercise yourself, I’d be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

“Assistance at a Distance”

Fred, thanks for sharing. Using your imagery, I'm going to describe my perspective in PCT language. Please let me know if I stray.

My perceived state is incompleteness and my goal state is without boundary because determination has none. The target is injustice with myself and the environment interacting reflexively as an evolving consciousness because I see no difference between subjective and objective reality. My logic is increasingly transductive because I do not distinguish between parts and wholes.

My question for you is, am I regressing or progressing in PCT terms?

Thanks,

Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633

Fred Nickols <fred@NICKOLS.US> 5/24/2011 4:50 PM >>>

I'm working up some materials for use in familiarizing people with the
Target Model and PCT. One involves what I'm calling "The Reflections
Exercise" in which the reader reflects on a personal experience in light of
the Target Model (PCT) and then tries to identify the elements of the
experience that relate to the components of the Target Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the exercise yourself, I'd
be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

www.nickols.us | fred@nickols.us

"Assistance at a Distance"

[From Fred Nickols (2011.05.25.1428 MST)]

Chad: To be perfectly honest, I haven't a clue as to the full meaning of
what you wrote. However, if you posit "injustice" as the target (and
presumably injustice is indeed a variable) then it would seem to me that
your perceived state would have something to do with the injustice you see
and your goal state would say something about what you'd like to see. I
guess my only other question relates to your actions and I would ask, "What
are you doing about it?" Finally, you made no mention of the conditions
that might be disturbing "justice."

Fred Nickols

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Chad Green
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 2:21 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Target Model Exercise

Fred, thanks for sharing. Using your imagery, I'm going to describe my
perspective in PCT language. Please let me know if I stray.

My perceived state is incompleteness and my goal state is without boundary
because determination has none. The target is injustice with myself and
the environment interacting reflexively as an evolving consciousness because
I see no difference between subjective and objective reality. My logic is
increasingly transductive because I do not distinguish between parts and
wholes.

My question for you is, am I regressing or progressing in PCT terms?

Thanks,

Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633

Fred Nickols <fred@NICKOLS.US> 5/24/2011 4:50 PM >>>

I'm working up some materials for use in familiarizing people with the
Target Model and PCT. One involves what I'm calling "The Reflections
Exercise" in which the reader reflects on a personal experience in light of
the Target Model (PCT) and then tries to identify the elements of the
experience that relate to the components of the Target Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the exercise yourself, I'd
be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

www.nickols.us | fred@nickols.us

"Assistance at a Distance"

No worries. I have difficulty expressing these ideas as well because they are a constant work in progress. What I meant by injustice is anything that limits human potential. I am using the word injustice for now because I have yet to find a boundary for justice, and as long as this persists, justice will infuse meaning in my perceptions of incompleteness. Justice is different from the other values that I have explored because it is reflexive, like the way I think, meaning that it does not want to be controlled.

The injustice that irritates me the most is the limits of language itself. Perhaps it is because I no longer see a need for it to advance my learning. What am I doing about it? When I have justice under control, I'll let you know. In the meantime, I suppose I'll be giving up a few bad habits.

Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633

Fred Nickols <fred@NICKOLS.US> 5/25/2011 5:32 PM >>>

[From Fred Nickols (2011.05.25.1428 MST)]

Chad: To be perfectly honest, I haven't a clue as to the full meaning of
what you wrote. However, if you posit "injustice" as the target (and
presumably injustice is indeed a variable) then it would seem to me that
your perceived state would have something to do with the injustice you see
and your goal state would say something about what you'd like to see. I
guess my only other question relates to your actions and I would ask, "What
are you doing about it?" Finally, you made no mention of the conditions
that might be disturbing "justice."

Fred Nickols

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Chad Green
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 2:21 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Target Model Exercise

Fred, thanks for sharing. Using your imagery, I'm going to describe my
perspective in PCT language. Please let me know if I stray.

My perceived state is incompleteness and my goal state is without boundary
because determination has none. The target is injustice with myself and
the environment interacting reflexively as an evolving consciousness because
I see no difference between subjective and objective reality. My logic is
increasingly transductive because I do not distinguish between parts and
wholes.

My question for you is, am I regressing or progressing in PCT terms?

Thanks,

Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633

Fred Nickols <fred@NICKOLS.US> 5/24/2011 4:50 PM >>>

I'm working up some materials for use in familiarizing people with the
Target Model and PCT. One involves what I'm calling "The Reflections
Exercise" in which the reader reflects on a personal experience in light of
the Target Model (PCT) and then tries to identify the elements of the
experience that relate to the components of the Target Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the exercise yourself, I'd
be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

www.nickols.us | fred@nickols.us

"Assistance at a Distance"

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.10.38NZT)

[From Fred Nickols
(2011.05.25.1428 MST)]

Fred

I have attached a drawing
for you. I have drawn 7 blobs each with a control system inside (obviously there
are many inside the blob I drew just one for sake of simplicity).

Outside the blobs is the
environment. So I have drawn for each blob the feedback functions, controlled variables
and lines that depict the environmental quantities.

Also each blob has disturbances.

So what I would like to understand
is the mappings between all the environmental quantities/ variables and
functions.

How does this look in a simple
mapping diagram.

How do the interactions of
the blobs look using PCT concepts?

Regards

Gavin

perfectly honest, I haven’t a clue as to the full meaning of

what you wrote. However, if you posit
“injustice” as the target (and

presumably injustice is indeed a variable) then it
would seem to me that

your perceived state would have something to do with
the injustice you see

you’d like to see. I

guess my only other question relates to your actions

no mention of the conditions

that might be disturbing “justice.”

Fred, thanks for
sharing. Using your imagery, I’m going to describe my

perspective in PCT language. Please let me know
if I stray.

My perceived state is incompleteness and my goal state
is without boundary

because determination has none. The target is
injustice with myself and

the environment interacting reflexively as an evolving
consciousness because

I see no difference between subjective and objective
reality. My logic is

increasingly transductive because I do not distinguish
between parts and

wholes.

My question for you is, am I regressing or progressing
in PCT terms?

Thanks,

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Fred Nickols
fred@NICKOLS.US 5/24/2011 4:50 PM >>>

I’m working up some materials for use in familiarizing
people with the

Target Model and PCT. One involves what I’m
calling "The Reflections

Exercise" in which the reader reflects on a
personal experience in light of

the Target Model (PCT) and then tries to identify the
elements of the

experience that relate to the components of the Target
Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the
exercise yourself, I’d

be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

“Assistance at a Distance”

···

bob hintz 2011.05.25

Gavin, it looks like none of the blobs perceives any of the other blobs and none controls any variables which are also controlled by any of the other blobs. Do you want the blobs to interact in some fashion? Do you want them to be aware of each other? Are they similar to each other as members of a herd might be? Do some blobs survive by eating other blobs and/or avoid being eaten by other blobs? I would start by asking how each blob controls for changes in the distance between itself and other observable blobs.

bob

···

On , Gavin Ritz garritz@xtra.co.nz wrote:

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.10.38NZT)

[From Fred Nickols
(2011.05.25.1428 MST)]

Fred

I have attached a drawing
for you. I have drawn 7 blobs each with a control system inside (obviously there
are many inside the blob I drew just one for sake of simplicity).

Outside the blobs is the
environment. So I have drawn for each blob the feedback functions, controlled variables
and lines that depict the environmental quantities.

Also each blob has disturbances.

So what I would like to understand
is the mappings between all the environmental quantities/ variables and
functions.

How does this look in a simple
mapping diagram.

How do the interactions of
the blobs look using PCT concepts?

Regards

Gavin

perfectly honest, I haven’t a clue as to the full meaning of

what you wrote. However, if you posit
“injustice” as the target (and

presumably injustice is indeed a variable) then it
would seem to me that

your perceived state would have something to do with
the injustice you see

you’d like to see. I

guess my only other question relates to your actions

no mention of the conditions

that might be disturbing “justice.”

Fred, thanks for
sharing. Using your imagery, I’m going to describe my

perspective in PCT language. Please let me know
if I stray.

My perceived state is incompleteness and my goal state
is without boundary

because determination has none. The target is
injustice with myself and

the environment interacting reflexively as an evolving
consciousness because

I see no difference between subjective and objective
reality. My logic is

increasingly transductive because I do not distinguish
between parts and

wholes.

My question for you is, am I regressing or progressing
in PCT terms?

Thanks,

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Fred Nickols
fred@NICKOLS.US> 5/24/2011 4:50 PM >>>

I’m working up some materials for use in familiarizing
people with the

Target Model and PCT. One involves what I’m
calling "The Reflections

Exercise" in which the reader reflects on a
personal experience in light of

the Target Model (PCT) and then tries to identify the
elements of the

experience that relate to the components of the Target
Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the
exercise yourself, I’d

be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

“Assistance at a Distance”

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.12.56NZT)

bob hintz 2011.05.25

Gavin, it looks like none of the blobs perceives any of the other blobs and
none controls any variables which are also controlled by any of the other
blobs.

Yes I would like someone to show me how a
mapping would look. So please redraw what I have done, with the mapping relationships.

Do you want the blobs to
interact in some fashion?

Yes.

Do you want them to be
aware of each other?

Yes

Are they similar to each
other as members of a herd might be?

A mapping should be able to handle any
functional relationship.

Do some blobs survive by
eating other blobs and/or avoid being eaten by other blobs?

I hope not, considering I would like those
blobs to be people.

how each blob controls for changes in the distance between itself and other
observable blobs.

I don’t know that’s why I
would love someone to show me how specifically these blobs interact using the
PCT model.

Regards

Gavin

bob

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.10.38NZT)

[From Fred Nickols
(2011.05.25.1428 MST)]

Fred

I have attached a drawing
for you. I have drawn 7 blobs each with a control system inside (obviously
there
are many inside the blob I drew just one for sake of simplicity).

Outside the blobs is the
environment. So I have drawn for each blob the feedback functions,
controlled variables

···

On , Gavin Ritz garritz@xtra.co.nz wrote:

and lines that depict the environmental quantities.

Also each blob has disturbances.

So what I would like to understand
is the mappings between all the environmental quantities/ variables and
functions.

How does this look in a simple
mapping diagram.

How do the interactions of
the blobs look using PCT concepts?

Regards

Gavin

perfectly honest, I haven’t a clue as to the full meaning of

what you wrote. However, if you posit
“injustice” as the target (and

presumably injustice is indeed a variable) then it
would seem to me that

your perceived state would have something to do with
the injustice you see

you’d like to see. I

guess my only other question relates to your actions

no mention of the conditions

that might be disturbing “justice.”

Fred, thanks for
sharing. Using your imagery, I’m going to describe my

perspective in PCT language. Please let me know
if I stray.

My perceived state is incompleteness and my goal state
is without boundary

because determination has none. The target is
injustice with myself and

the environment interacting reflexively as an evolving
consciousness because

I see no difference between subjective and objective
reality. My logic is

increasingly transductive because I do not distinguish
between parts and

wholes.

My question for you is, am I regressing or progressing
in PCT terms?

Thanks,

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Fred Nickols
fred@NICKOLS.US> 5/24/2011 4:50 PM >>>

I’m working up some materials for use in familiarizing
people with the

Target Model and PCT. One involves what I’m
calling "The Reflections

Exercise" in which the reader reflects on a
personal experience in light of

the Target Model (PCT) and then tries to identify the
elements of the

experience that relate to the components of the Target
Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the
exercise yourself, I’d

be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

“Assistance at a Distance”

bob hintz 2011.05.25

I don’t know what you mean by mapping. I was treating your blobs as very simple organisms and attempting to start with fairly simple control systems that could perceive changes in the world outside themselves, recognize other living beings at a distance, could change their location in relation to each other and have preferences regarding the value of physical contact with at least some of the others that they could perceive and recognize. I was implicitly positing some blobs as predators and some blobs as prey for these predators. This was why the distance between them was a variable that both would want to control. We could label predators Pr and prey Py. Pr must kill a Py every two days in order to stay strong. Py just eats grass and must avoid contact with Pr. If Pr can see Py from a distance X and Py can detect the presence of Pr from a distance Y, we, as observers, should be able to make inferences about what each is observing, and what their preference in relation to the other might be by analyzing how the changes in their movement is related to the distance between them. They will be in conflict only when each is perceiving the other acting in ways which disturb their control of this distance. Pr wants to reduce it to zero, while Py wants to keep it at some minimum much greater that zero.

Is this enough to start some kind of mapping. I want to try and use the crowd demo to model something like this if I can figure out how to adjust the variables.

bob

···

On , Gavin Ritz garritz@xtra.co.nz wrote:

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.12.56NZT)

bob hintz 2011.05.25

Gavin, it looks like none of the blobs perceives any of the other blobs and
none controls any variables which are also controlled by any of the other
blobs.

Yes I would like someone to show me how a
mapping would look. So please redraw what I have done, with the mapping relationships.

Do you want the blobs to
interact in some fashion?

Yes.

Do you want them to be
aware of each other?

Yes

Are they similar to each
other as members of a herd might be?

A mapping should be able to handle any
functional relationship.

Do some blobs survive by
eating other blobs and/or avoid being eaten by other blobs?

I hope not, considering I would like those
blobs to be people.

how each blob controls for changes in the distance between itself and other
observable blobs.

I dont know thats why I
would love someone to show me how specifically these blobs interact using the
PCT model.

Regards

Gavin

bob

On , Gavin Ritz garritz@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.10.38NZT)

[From Fred Nickols

(2011.05.25.1428 MST)]

Fred

I have attached a drawing

for you. I have drawn 7 blobs each with a control system inside (obviously
there

are many inside the blob I drew just one for sake of simplicity).

Outside the blobs is the

environment. So I have drawn for each blob the feedback functions,
controlled variables

and lines that depict the environmental quantities.

Also each blob has disturbances.

So what I would like to understand

is the mappings between all the environmental quantities/ variables and

functions.

How does this look in a simple

mapping diagram.

How do the interactions of

the blobs look using PCT concepts?

Regards

Gavin

perfectly honest, I haven’t a clue as to the full meaning of

what you wrote. However, if you posit

“injustice” as the target (and

presumably injustice is indeed a variable) then it

would seem to me that

your perceived state would have something to do with

the injustice you see

you’d like to see. I

guess my only other question relates to your actions

no mention of the conditions

that might be disturbing “justice.”

Fred, thanks for

sharing. Using your imagery, I’m going to describe my

perspective in PCT language. Please let me know

if I stray.

My perceived state is incompleteness and my goal state

is without boundary

because determination has none. The target is

injustice with myself and

the environment interacting reflexively as an evolving

consciousness because

I see no difference between subjective and objective

reality. My logic is

increasingly transductive because I do not distinguish

between parts and

wholes.

My question for you is, am I regressing or progressing

in PCT terms?

Thanks,

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Fred Nickols

fred@NICKOLS.US> 5/24/2011 4:50 PM >>>

I’m working up some materials for use in familiarizing

people with the

Target Model and PCT. One involves what I’m

calling "The Reflections

Exercise" in which the reader reflects on a

personal experience in light of

the Target Model (PCT) and then tries to identify the

elements of the

experience that relate to the components of the Target

Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the

exercise yourself, I’d

be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

“Assistance at a Distance”

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.25.1920)]

Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.12.56NZT)

>bob hintz 2011.05.25

BH. Gavin, it looks like none of the blobs perceives any of the other blobs and

none controls any variables which are also controlled by any of the other
blobs.

GR: Yes I would like someone to show me how a mapping would look. So please
redraw what I have done, with the mapping relationships.

Why don't you show us what you mean by "mapping" and explain how we
could produce one. An elementary rule of education, it seems to me,
is that you show the students what you want them to do and then
explain how to do it. So how about showing us what a "mapping" might
look like and explain how we get from your little drawing to a
"mapping".

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.14.59NZT)

bob hintz 2011.05.25

Bob

One can definitely use a predator prey
model idea but that is only one type of mapping.

A mapping needs to cover all possible relationships
and sets.

Eg Set X with x variables (elements) is converted
via function (f) to set Y with (y output) or y outputs. (or y elements)

The modeling needs to come last, to show then
either a type of mapping relationship or maybe a few or all.

A map is like building the foundation.

Once we agree on a map anything will work
as long as it is representative of the map.

There will always be some variables, then
the function that converts those variables to other output(s).

Regards

Gavin

I don’t know what you mean by mapping. I was treating your blobs as very simple
organisms and attempting to start with fairly simple control systems that could
perceive changes in the world outside themselves, recognize other living beings
at a distance, could change their location in relation to each other and have
preferences regarding the value of physical contact with at least some of the
others that they could perceive and recognize. I was implicitly positing some
blobs as predators and some blobs as prey for these predators. This was why the
distance between them was a variable that both would want to control. We could
label predators Pr and prey Py. Pr must kill a Py every two days in order to
stay strong. Py just eats grass and must avoid contact with Pr. If Pr can see
Py from a distance X and Py can detect the presence of Pr from a distance Y,
we, as observers, should be able to make inferences about what each is
observing, and what their preference in relation to the other might be by
analyzing how the changes in their movement is related to the distance between
them. They will be in conflict only when each is perceiving the other acting in
ways which disturb their control of this distance. Pr wants to reduce it to
zero, while Py wants to keep it at some minimum much greater that zero.

Is this enough to start some kind of mapping. I want to try and use the crowd
demo to model something like this if I can figure out how to adjust the
variables.

bob

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.12.56NZT)

bob hintz 2011.05.25

Gavin, it looks like none of the blobs perceives any of the other blobs
and

none controls any variables which are also controlled by any of the other

blobs.

Yes I would like someone to show me how a

mapping would look. So please redraw what I have done, with the mapping
relationships.

Do you want the blobs to

interact in some fashion?

Yes.

Do you want them to be

aware of each other?

Yes

Are they similar to each

other as members of a herd might be?

A mapping should be able to handle any

functional relationship.

Do some blobs survive by

eating other blobs and/or avoid being eaten by other blobs?

I hope not, considering I would like those

blobs to be people.

how each blob controls for changes in the distance between itself and
other

observable blobs.

I don’t know that’s why I

would love someone to show me how specifically these blobs interact using
the

PCT model.

Regards

Gavin

bob

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.10.38NZT)

[From Fred Nickols

(2011.05.25.1428 MST)]

Fred

I have attached a drawing

for you. I have drawn 7 blobs each with a control system inside
(obviously
there

are many inside the blob I drew just one for sake of simplicity).

Outside the blobs is the

environment. So I have drawn for each blob the feedback functions,
controlled variables

and lines that depict the environmental quantities.

Also each blob has disturbances.

So what I would like to understand

is the mappings between all the environmental quantities/ variables
and

···

On , Gavin Ritz garritz@xtra.co.nz wrote:

On , Gavin Ritz garritz@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

functions.

How does this look in a simple

mapping diagram.

How do the interactions of

the blobs look using PCT concepts?

Regards

Gavin

perfectly honest, I haven’t a clue as to the full meaning of

what you wrote. However, if you posit

“injustice” as the target (and

presumably injustice is indeed a variable) then it

would seem to me that

your perceived state would have something to do with

the injustice you see

you’d like to see. I

guess my only other question relates to your actions

no mention of the conditions

that might be disturbing “justice.”

Fred, thanks for

sharing. Using your imagery, I’m going to describe my

perspective in PCT language. Please let me know

if I stray.

My perceived state is incompleteness and my goal state

is without boundary

because determination has none. The target is

injustice with myself and

the environment interacting reflexively as an evolving

consciousness because

I see no difference between subjective and objective

reality. My logic is

increasingly transductive because I do not distinguish

between parts and

wholes.

My question for you is, am I regressing or progressing

in PCT terms?

Thanks,

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Fred Nickols

fred@NICKOLS.US> 5/24/2011 4:50 PM >>>

I’m working up some materials for use in familiarizing

people with the

Target Model and PCT. One involves what I’m

calling "The Reflections

Exercise" in which the reader reflects on a

personal experience in light of

the Target Model (PCT) and then tries to identify the

elements of the

experience that relate to the components of the Target

Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the

exercise yourself, I’d

be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

“Assistance at a Distance”

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.25.2120)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.05.26.14.59NZT)

GR: A mapping needs to cover all possible relationships and sets.

Eg Set X with x variables (elements) is converted via function (f) to set Y
with (y output) or y outputs. (or y elements)

A map is like building the foundation.

I have no idea, based on this, how to go from your diagram of little
control systems to a mapping.

But I wonder why in the world are you asking us to do this mapping.
Apparently you know how to do it, so do it. Then you can show us and
we can be enlightened.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

(Gavin Ritz
2011.05.26.NZT)

Bob

Mapping in its basic form has three rules.
(There are 4 more but let’s leave that for now, mainly because I don’t know how
to do them).

Also I don’t know how to map the environmental
variables of PCT onto a map hence why I’m asking you.

It is the framework of mathematics.

Sets (or objects) say X with elements x.

Other sets (or objects) Y, Z, Q, R, with
elements y (s), z (s), q (s), r (s).

These sets or objects can be regarded as
beings (static states).

Then there are the functions or
transformation notions that convert one set (object- domain) to another set
(object-codomain).

These functions are called arrows,
functions, becomings.

The whole lot taken together is called a
map.

So F(x1, x2, x3,x4…………xn)= y1, y2, y3….yn
(or f: X →Y)

We have a set X with elements x and
function transforming into a set Y with y outputs.

So in PCT x can be the neural signals e
(error), maps to outputs variables y with function f.

You can have maps following maps say f
following g following h following r, one can map a whole bunch of functions and
sets (objects) together. (There are some simple rules called rules of
associations with functions), a composite map.

Then each Object X can have an identity so
mapping from X to X is also a map. Called an identity map. Just maps to itself.

That’s it the three rules of mapping.

So how would the environmental mappings of
that diagram look?

Regards

Gavin

bob hintz 2011.05.25

I don’t know what you mean by mapping. I was treating your blobs as very simple
organisms and attempting to start with fairly simple control systems that could
perceive changes in the world outside themselves, recognize other living beings
at a distance, could change their location in relation to each other and have
preferences regarding the value of physical contact with at least some of the
others that they could perceive and recognize. I was implicitly positing some
blobs as predators and some blobs as prey for these predators. This was why the
distance between them was a variable that both would want to control. We could
label predators Pr and prey Py. Pr must kill a Py every two days in order to
stay strong. Py just eats grass and must avoid contact with Pr. If Pr can see
Py from a distance X and Py can detect the presence of Pr from a distance Y,
we, as observers, should be able to make inferences about what each is
observing, and what their preference in relation to the other might be by
analyzing how the changes in their movement is related to the distance between
them. They will be in conflict only when each is perceiving the other acting in
ways which disturb their control of this distance. Pr wants to reduce it to
zero, while Py wants to keep it at some minimum much greater that zero.

Is this enough to start some kind of mapping. I want to try and use the crowd
demo to model something like this if I can figure out how to adjust the
variables.

bob

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.12.56NZT)

bob hintz 2011.05.25

Gavin, it looks like none of the blobs perceives any of the other blobs
and

none controls any variables which are also controlled by any of the other

blobs.

Yes I would like someone to show me how a

mapping would look. So please redraw what I have done, with the mapping
relationships.

Do you want the blobs to

interact in some fashion?

Yes.

Do you want them to be

aware of each other?

Yes

Are they similar to each

other as members of a herd might be?

A mapping should be able to handle any

functional relationship.

Do some blobs survive by

eating other blobs and/or avoid being eaten by other blobs?

I hope not, considering I would like those

blobs to be people.

how each blob controls for changes in the distance between itself and
other

observable blobs.

I don’t know that’s why I

would love someone to show me how specifically these blobs interact using
the

PCT model.

Regards

Gavin

bob

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.10.38NZT)

[From Fred Nickols

(2011.05.25.1428 MST)]

Fred

I have attached a drawing

for you. I have drawn 7 blobs each with a control system inside
(obviously
there

are many inside the blob I drew just one for sake of simplicity).

Outside the blobs is the

environment. So I have drawn for each blob the feedback functions,
controlled variables

and lines that depict the environmental quantities.

Also each blob has disturbances.

So what I would like to understand

is the mappings between all the environmental quantities/ variables
and

···

On , Gavin Ritz garritz@xtra.co.nz wrote:

On , Gavin Ritz garritz@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

functions.

How does this look in a simple

mapping diagram.

How do the interactions of

the blobs look using PCT concepts?

Regards

Gavin

perfectly honest, I haven’t a clue as to the full meaning of

what you wrote. However, if you posit

“injustice” as the target (and

presumably injustice is indeed a variable) then it

would seem to me that

your perceived state would have something to do with

the injustice you see

you’d like to see. I

guess my only other question relates to your actions

no mention of the conditions

that might be disturbing “justice.”

Fred, thanks for

sharing. Using your imagery, I’m going to describe my

perspective in PCT language. Please let me know

if I stray.

My perceived state is incompleteness and my goal state

is without boundary

because determination has none. The target is

injustice with myself and

the environment interacting reflexively as an evolving

consciousness because

I see no difference between subjective and objective

reality. My logic is

increasingly transductive because I do not distinguish

between parts and

wholes.

My question for you is, am I regressing or progressing

in PCT terms?

Thanks,

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Fred Nickols

fred@NICKOLS.US> 5/24/2011 4:50 PM >>>

I’m working up some materials for use in familiarizing

people with the

Target Model and PCT. One involves what I’m

calling "The Reflections

Exercise" in which the reader reflects on a

personal experience in light of

the Target Model (PCT) and then tries to identify the

elements of the

experience that relate to the components of the Target

Model.

If any of you would care to take and look and try the

exercise yourself, I’d

be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

A copy is attached in.pdf format.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

“Assistance at a Distance”

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.16.32NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2011.05.25.2120)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.05.26.14.59NZT)

GR: A mapping needs to cover all possible
relationships and sets.

Eg Set X with x variables (elements) is converted
via function (f) to set Y

with (y output) or y outputs. (or y elements)

A map is like building the foundation.

I have no idea, based on this, how to go from your
diagram of little

control systems to a mapping.

But I wonder why in the world are you asking us to do
this mapping.

Apparently you know how to do it, so do it. Then you
can show us and

we can be enlightened.

I have no idea how to do

and supercilious digs. I’m really not interested it’s so tedious,
it just does nothing for me.

This is the reason I don’t
really care to communicate with you at all. There is something really seriously
up with you.

It’s such a pity you
are like this you have so much to offer.

Regards

Gavin

···

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.25.2200)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.05.26.16.32NZT)--

Rick Marken (2011.05.25.2120)--

RM: But I wonder why in the world are you asking us to do this mapping.

GR: I have no idea how to do it, hence Iï¿½m asking Bob.

What makes you think Bob would know how to do it? And even if he did,
how would you know that he got it right? I think you must know how to
do it because I gave you some examples of what I thought were mappings
of the interaction between multiple control systems and you said that
those "mappings" were not what you were after. How could you know that
those mappings were not what you were after if you have no idea how to
make the mappings?

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.17.17NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2011.05.25.2200)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.05.26.16.32NZT)–

Rick Marken
(2011.05.25.2120)–

RM: But I wonder why in the world are you
asking us to do this mapping.

GR: I have no idea how to do it, hence I’m

What makes you think Bob would know how to do it?

Can he?

And even if he did,

how would you know that he got it right?

For one, they would look
like mappings.

I think you must know how to

do it because I gave you some examples of what I
thought were mappings

of the interaction between multiple control systems
and you said that

those “mappings” were not what you were
after.

You sent me multiple control
systems that were an internal model I asked for how the external relationships would
look. Then sent me the crowd computer model. That’s not a mapping either.

Then you got upset because
it wasn’t what I was looking for. So I asked elsewhere. You are so easily
upset.

How could you know that

those mappings were not what you were after if you
have no idea how to

make the mappings?

This is really not an
easy thing to map. If I knew how I wouldn’t bother asking.

Because you didn’t send
any mappings. I know what a mapping looks like.

get sarcastic and supercilious if I make a statement you do ditto, I have just
had enough of it. Really I do this for no other reason that for fun. It’s
just not fun communicating with you.

Look if you don’t feel
comfortable communicating with me don’t, I really don’t mind or
care if you don’t want to.

Why do you even bother
communicating with me, I just don’t get it. You say I don’t have
any value to add to PCT and say I have no understanding of it so why do you
even bother with me.

You’re are the
to hell with a new comer like me (I’ve only been at this for 5 years you
have been at it for 30 years), really don’t bother I just don’t mind
at all.

I’m very happy to play
with myself. No! shit.

Regards

Gavin

···

An elementary rule of education, it seems to me,
is that you show the students what you want them to do and then
explain how to do it. So how about showing us what a "mapping" might
look like and explain how we get from your little drawing to a
"mapping".

Best

Rick

Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

···

On Wed, 25 May 2011 19:19:25 -0700, Richard Marken <rsmarken@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.25.1920)]

Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.12.56NZT)

>bob hintz 2011.05.25

=========================================================================

Hi Rick,

I have some "addition" to your interpretation of elementary rules in education.

Rick :
An elementary rule of education, it seems to me, is that you show the
students what you want them to do and then explain how to do itďż˝

Boris :
ďż˝and than EVALUATE their knowledge (get feed-back) as usualy happens in
classical school conditions. The inteligent EXPLANATOR will soon find out
said truth, that usualy few students really undestood what it was explained,
speccially if explanator talked too much. Considering experiances it's a
very little chance that students won't forget "talked explanation" imediatelly.

"Forgeting" depend from different reasons like how interesting "talked
explanation" is and how "multimedia" presented, and how students are
motivated to listen, what their pre-knowledge is, what abilities they have
to understand what EXPLANATOR says, etc.

So in another step after EVALUATION (getting feed-back from students), it's
good for EXPLANATOR to use feed-back "information" in his repeatings of
explanation and it's also good to use some basic didactical rules which were
set by Comenius (Didactica magna) about 400 years ago : explain it through
as many as possible perceptual input (visual, audio, kinaestheticďż˝) and in
natural form, with as less abstraction as possible (experiances in natural
environment). If EXPLANATOR manage to consider also differences in students
personality (different control systems) and their way of understanding, he
is the winner. He is not explanator any more, he's a real teacher :)), but
not yet a PCT teacher.

Best,

Boris

(Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.21.13NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2011.05.25.1920)]

Gavin Ritz 2011.05.26.12.56NZT)

bob hintz 2011.05.25

Very nicely put Boris.

Learning is a creative
act.

Maybe Rick
really doesn’t want anyone else to really understand PCT like he does, so
maybe he tries to chase away anyone who has real interest and cares to learn. Maybe
this puts him in an unassailable position.

Maybe this threatens him
for whatever reason, maybe he just doesn’t care too much to teach, I just
don’t know and probably don’t care that much, what his goals are.

I think it’s a great
theory so his responses don’t really affect me at all.

He has told me that his
goal is to disturb me (create disturbances for me), I don’t actually get disturbed
by his response, I just find them tedious and a waste of my time.
So I try not to communicate with him too much.

It’s such a pity as
he has really sound knowledge of PCT and could offer so much to a wider
community, but he choose not too. Maybe he secretly wants to keep the knowledge
to himself. I just think he’s not honest with himself.

I actually looked at a
list I was on from the early 1990’s and I was really shocked to see Rick
actually doing the same stuff to other list members on it. Not sure why I was
shocked considering I was in Human Resources so many years and just about witnessed
every nasty deed short of murder.

Regards

Gavin

Hi Rick,

I have some “addition” to your
interpretation of elementary rules in education.

Rick :

An elementary rule of education, it seems to me, is
that you show the

students what you want them to do and then explain how
to do it…

Boris :

…and than EVALUATE their knowledge (get
feed-back) as usualy happens in

classical school conditions. The inteligent EXPLANATOR
will soon find out

said truth, that usualy few students really undestood
what it was explained,

speccially if explanator talked too much. Considering
experiances it’s a

very little chance that students won’t forget
“talked explanation” imediatelly.

“Forgeting” depend from different reasons
like how interesting "talked

explanation" is and how “multimedia”
presented, and how students are

motivated to listen, what their pre-knowledge is, what
abilities they have

to understand what EXPLANATOR says, etc.

So in another step after EVALUATION (getting feed-back
from students), it’s

good for EXPLANATOR to use feed-back
“information” in his repeatings of

explanation and it’s also good to use some basic
didactical rules which were

set by Comenius (Didactica magna) about 400 years ago : explain it through

as many as possible perceptual input (visual, audio,
kinaesthetic…) and in

natural form, with as less abstraction as possible
(experiances in natural

environment). If EXPLANATOR manage to consider also
differences in students

personality (different control systems) and their way
of understanding, he

is the winner. He is not explanator any more, he’s a
real teacher :)), but

not yet a PCT teacher.

···