Tennis Players, Ball Players and Decisions

From [Marc Abrams (2004.12.10.1633)]

An additional thought on this post from Rick.

a message dated 12/10/2004 2:15:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, marken@MINDREADINGS.COM writes:

···

[From Rick Marken (2004.12.10.1111)]

I’ve been making the mistake
of disturbing the variables that my partner is controlling for. Big
mistake. I’ll also make sure I’m controlling my mind with my human spirit.

Whether you are looking at the ‘behavior’ or the ‘controlled variable’ you are practicing behaviorism.

That is, you are attempting to understand purpose by observing one’s behavior or actions.

Marc

From [Marc Abrams (2004.12.19.1650)]

In a message dated 12/10/2004 2:11:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, bryanth@SOLTEC.NET writes:

···

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2004.12.10.1310)]

If you are proposing a 12th level, as you have previously, like Rick, I can say, >yes, fine, that is interesting, but as he would also request of you, please show >some method by which you want to test it. Let’s see:

I don’t understand this position. It has been the position of Bill Powers that the levels he postulated are not set in stone and there may be 3 or there may be 33 when the dust finally settles.

In asking Kenny to provide something neither you nor anyone else has been able to do in 35 years with what was originally postulated is quite a trick.

NO one has been able to determine where the top most level originates. Why could it not be ‘spiritual’ ? I personally don’t believe it is, but until we do know, why ask Kenny, or anyone else, to provide something you yourself can’t provide for what you believe in.

Kenny is not asking you to take on his beliefs Why not allow him to hold his until you can refute them with facts.

Marc

[From Rick Marken (2004.12.10.1530)]

Bryan Thalhammer (2004.12.10.1310) --

My perception here is that we try to make the list more readable by new
readers, in particular, so that we avoid the Glasser and Ford mutual
misinterpretations and so on, and make a clearer distinction between pure and
applied and theory and application when we post.

My concern is less with readability than with reasonability. I think theory
can and should be used to inform application. But I would like to see the
theory used properly for this purpose. By that I mean I would like to see a
reasonable explanation of how the application is derived from the theory.
The application itself may be wonderfully successful but if its derivation
from PCT is not clearly drawn then I think it's not appropriate to claim
that the application is based on PCT.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

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[From Dick Robertson, 2004.12.10.1935CST]

···

From: Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems
<KJKitzke@AOL.COM>
Date: Friday, December 10, 2004 10:16 am
Subject: Re: Tennis Players, Ball Players and Decisions

Very nice post, Kenney. I think I can make good use
of it.

Best,

Dick R

In a message dated 12/8/2004 2:48:37 PM Eastern

Standard Time,

marken@MINDREADINGS.COM writes:
[From Rick Marken (2004.12.08.1140)]

> Kenny Kitzke (2004.12.08)

> I am certain that understanding PCT has made me

a better tennis

competitor.
Could you explain how it did that?
Yes, I could. I could probably write a book about

it. Not

wanting to spend
that much time, I'll just mention a few examples

of what I meant.

First, my comment was a reaction to the idea about

making

decisions that
would allow you to hit a tennis ball better. At

my age of 60, and

a deteriorated
health and physical condition, one might expect me

to lose most

tennis matches
to players in my division who are 10, 20 or 30

years younger than

I. Guys
who are physically fit: strong and quick with the

stamina of

marathon runners.
[I doubt if I could run a quarter of a mile.]

Guys who hit the

ball harder,
much harder than I do.

You can hardly imagine the amazement, and often

the anger, when

younger and
more physically fit players lose a match to me.

Some throw their

racquet down
in disgust. One who needed to beat me to move up

a division (and

fullyexpected he would), was so distraught he left

the court

without shaking hands or
saying good bye. Others go on and on about how I

gave them the

toughest match so
far this year (even if they won). Shaking their

head, they are

baffled about
"how they just couldn't get in their groove."

So, what do I know about playing a tennis match

that they don't?

They think
they can control their play; their actions. They

think they can

control me
and my actions/play by their superior physical

actions.

I know I control my perceptions (not my actions)

via an internal

feedbackloop. And, I know that they do too!

So, I come to the match with some different ways

to compete. In

my tennis
bag are an understanding of controlled perceptual

input variables,

of a test for
what is being controlled, that all behavior is

purposeful but

often for
hidden intents, of a structural hierarchy of

control loops setting

referencesignals for lower loops for continually

varying external

conditions, of a need to go
up a level when sustained perceptual error is

being experienced

and of how
counter control can work.

I have an advantage because of my understanding

behavior as the

control of
perception; of being able to look beyond (actually

above in the

hierarchy)observed actions; both mine and my

opponent's. So I

come to play by controlling my
perceptions of my body, my mind and my spirit.

I'm not the first tennis player to realize how

competitive tennis

is as much
a mental game as a physical one. About the time

Bill Powers was

writing B:CP,
W. Timothy Gallwey was writing The Inner Game of

Tennis. You can

tell how
old it is because the tennis ball on the cover is

white! But, in

it are some
powerful concepts of self, involving self-control,

confidence,

concentration,etc., concepts similar to a PCT

understanding of the

loop(s) inside us (some
unconscious) as opposed to the outside environment

of the game we

sense as a ball
coming over the net.

So, because of PCT, I am very observant of my

opponent, starting

with how
they did last year, what their record is this

year, who they beat

and who they
lost to and by how much, of what s/he does real

time, everything

from the car
they drive, the clothes they wear, what they say

when we meet,

and, of course,
how they play in practice and then once the match

starts. Why?

Because I am
guessing at, and testing for, what they control

for in their body,

mind and
spirit.

Concerning their body, I am looking for whether

they favor their

forehand,come to the net, play long rallies, how

they serve or

return serve, hit top spin
or slices--all kinds of body control.

Concerning their mind, I am observing whether they

have a plan or

style of
play, whether they get angry easily or are easily

distracted.

Concerning their spirit, I am observing whether

they are highly

competitive,have a strong desire to win at any

cost, whether they

are there more for the
exercise or social purpose than for winning.

Why all these mental gymnastics? To be able to

find and disturb the

variables they try to control. The more

disturbance I can

introduce, the more error I
can generate, the more the opponent seems to lose

their

need/desire to win.
And, the easier it becomes for me to win.

So, one aspect of my PCT game is to vary my play

to keep producing

disturbance to variables they seem to be

controlling. If someone

seems to control for
hitting hard shots from the base line, I hit them

weak, short

shots that force
them to the net. Then, I pass them or lob them to

win a point.

If they
control for hitting forehands, I disturb them with

some nice wide

backhands. Or, I
will counter control them by purposely hitting

slow shots to their

backhandsthat they can easily run around and hit

their forehand.

Just when they get
comfortable controlling for forehand returns, I

will hit a hard

cross court
forehand that they do not have time to get to or

make a forehand

return error that
even disturbs their confidence.

In PCT tennis, I learned to not pay much attention

to what I am

doing with my
body. When the coaches say, your grip is wrong,

your stance is

wrong, your
toss is too high, your footwork stinks, your

racquet face is too

open, your arm
is too straight, you dropped your wrist, you need

to react

quicker, you need
to keep your eye on the ball, you need to hit it

more in front of

you, finish
your stroke, and a million other maladies, I think

it just makes

you conscious
of the wrong things.

Instead, I allow my body to do what it can basically
automatically. It is
difficult to improve your game while you are

playing a match. I

do that too,
but when I practice.

So, I guess from my PCT view, I pay little

attention to what my

body does. I
pay attention to controlling my mind, whether I am

observing the

opponent'sstrengths, weaknesses, controlled

variables, mental

actions and displayed
attitude or spirit.

And, I think most importantly, I use my human

spirit to control my

own mind.
I resist getting angry about losing a point

because I am too slow

or tired.
I resist getting distracted by balls rolling on

the court, kids

making noise,
the high school band practicing, the noisy tractor

mowing the

grass, bad
calls, etc. I enjoy a tough physical and mental

match, win or

lose. I want to be
known for giving the benefit of the doubt on close

line calls. I

play tennis
because I enjoy competing with my body, mind and

spirit.

I can say I generally get more competitive as the

match goes on.

And, I can
assure you this happens despite getting weaker

physically. It is

because of
what I observed about my opponent and how I have

learned to

disturb his/her
variables enough to reduce their physical advantage.

Well, I hope that gives you some concept of why I

think I am more

competitiveat tennis because of my understanding

of PCT to explain

behavior, both my
opponent's and mine during a match.

And, of course, there are opponents whose physical

play is just

too superior
for any PCT advantage I have to produce a win.

There are also

opponents who,
without knowing PCT, are more aware of "The Inner

Game" and are

doing to me
something akin to what I am trying to do to them.

They just

overall control
their body, mind and spirit that results in "game,

set and match"

in their favor.
When I lose for that reason, I am satisfied with

my self and am most

gracious to my conqueror.

I usually do get disturbed when I lose because I

did not do a good job

controlling my own body, mind and spirit and yet

desired a win.

When I lose to
someone I know from past, or current match,

experience I was

capable of beating
but was not up to sufficient control that day.

Usually that starts with a poor spirit/attitude

and will that I

bring to the
match. Perhaps a goal of getting a match played

and over with (as

somethingelse is more heavy on my mind) instead of

a victory. Or,

because the match
does not have a higher level purpose for me like

winning a prize,

or a division
move up or down. It may even be just knowing that

my USTA Super

Seniors Team
Player and friend opponent, Bill, needs a win to

keep from being

moved down a
division for next year---I purposely throw the

match to give him a

little help.

Do you think it can improve my bridge game?

RSM
I would think so, but that would be a very

different game. I

would not know
from my own experience (haven't played bridge

since I learned

PCT). What do
you, or any other bridge players think? I see

differences

especially in
contract bridge. I would think that duplicate

might be a better

way to experiment
with whether PCT helps make you a better bridge

player.

Best wishes,

Kenny
The LawstSheep

Phil Runkel to Ken Kitzke about group consensus on 10 Dec:

What you say resonates in my nostalgia. Thanks. --Phil R.

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2004.12.11.1430 CST)]

Rick,

[From Rick Marken (2004.12.10.1530)]

> Bryan Thalhammer (2004.12.10.1310) --
> My perception..

My concern is less with readability than with reasonability. I think

theory

can and should be used to inform application. But I would like to see the
theory used properly for this purpose. By that I mean I would like to see

a

reasonable explanation of how the application is derived from the theory.
The application itself may be wonderfully successful but if its derivation
from PCT is not clearly drawn then I think it's not appropriate to claim
that the application is based on PCT.

Well, mutual readability is the basis of communication, and communication is
founded in reasonability. As a group, I think it would be better that
contributors stick to classic PCT, rather than launching into further
variations and calling those PCT. In maintaining readability, theorists,
applications developers and commentators would be able to uphold a reasoned
conversation by the very virtue of staying with the concept and terminology.
Otherwise its a moving target.

Testing and experimenting with PCT as is makes more sense and is more
reasonable, because that is how theory is advanced, step by step. Merely
adding a new chunk to a theory because a commentator has a better idea or
making a brand-new interpretation of it is not good science without rigorous
testing of the theory in question. I would guess that if science is being
mixed up with something else, it may be possible to make these errors,
unless it is a matter of hubris.

I am not in a position to do research as I had been previously. However, we
have a consistent literature of models, experiments, and examples of PCT in
action. But the ultimate test would be a self-reliant simulation of a living
control system. Every time I see a news article about vehicles that can
negotiate a desert road or a future Mars rover (and, well, they can't) I am
reminded that the designers seem not to understand the nature of perceptual
control. I agree with your recent statement:

[Rick Marken (2004.12.11.1220)]

I won't believe it exists until I see it implemented as a set of
differential equations or, better, as a computer program.

I recently saw the less-than-satisfying film, "I, Robot." But reading the
above, I am reminded of the crucial difference between the programmed robot
servants and agents and the one Robot who is "made" self-aware: Having a
Self-Image and controlling his environment to preserve it. It immediately
suggested that this Robot was a living control system. But then that would
be a very different computer program, or would it?

--Bryan

[From Rick Marken (2004.12.12.1040)]

Bryan Thalhammer (2004.12.11.1430 CST)--

Rick Marken (2004.12.10.1530)--

My concern is less with readability than with reasonability. I think
theory
can and should be used to inform application. But I would like to see
the
theory used properly for this purpose.

Well, mutual readability is the basis of communication, and
communication is
founded in reasonability. As a group, I think it would be better that
contributors stick to classic PCT, rather than launching into further
variations and calling those PCT.

Yes. I think that's a way of looking at it. I suppose my concern is
with claims that applications are based on PCT when they are not
clearly derived from "classic" PCT. This was my problem with RTP, for
example, which is a perfectly fine application, in the sense that it
works, but whose practices, as described in books on RTP, were not
clearly derived from PCT. A good "retrospective" PCT case could be
made for some practices, such as asking quarreling kids "what are you
doing"? In order to answer this question the kids have to "go up a
level", which generally takes them out of the quarrel without the use
of force. ("Up a level" is a consciousness phenomenon that is not
really part of "classic" PCT but I think there is enough subjective
evidence for it that I think it should count is as a legitimate
"non-classic" PCT basis for practice). But other practices and claims
were either not obviously derived from PCT (such as "making a plan") or
were flat out inconsistent with a PCT understanding of the nature of
behavior (such as saying "I see you have chosen X " when there is no
evidence that the kid has chosen X).

By the way, Linda and I came in second (out of about 7 couples) in our
duplicate bridge match on Friday, which is pretty good. We probably
would have come in first if my human spirit hadn't lost control of my
mind while I was playing one fairly challenging 3 no trump contract (I
went down 2, making us the lowest table on that hand). Linda was very
understanding. Even a lapsed Catholic can apparently muster sympathy
for the intrinsically sinful nature of the human spirit (mine being a
particularly sinful example).

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400