Thats nice, now lets talk about PCT and sucide

In a message dated 4/21/99 7:39:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
kurtzer@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU writes:

<< Thats nice, now lets talk about PCT >>

I would like some help building a frame of PCT around these points.

The following statistic's from
CDC - National Center for Injury Prevention and Control Suicide in the United

The Problem

� Suicide took the lives of 30,484 Americans in 1992 (11.1 per 100, 000
population) 1

� More people die from suicide than from homicide in the United States.

� On an average day, 84 people die from suicide and an estimated 1,900 adults
attempt suicide.

� Males are at least four times more likely to die from suicide than are
females. However, females are more likely to attempt suicide than are males.

� In 1992, white males accounted for 73 % of all suicides. Together, white
males and white females account for almost 91% of all suicides. Suicide rates
are higher than the national average for some groups of Asian and Native

� Suicide rates are generally higher than the national average in the western
states and lower in the eastern and Midwestern states.

� Nearly 60 % of all suicides are committed with a firearm.

� Suicide rates increase with age and are highest among- Americans aged 65
years and older.

� The ten-year period, 1980-1990, was the first decade since the 1940s that
the suicide rate for older residents rose instead of declined.

� Firearms were the most common method of suicide used by both men (74%) and
women (31%).

� Risk factors for suicide among older persons differ from those among the
young. Older persons have a higher prevalence of alcohol abuse, depression, a
greater use of highly lethal methods, and social isolation. They also make
fewer attempts per completed suicide, have a higher male-to-female ratio than
other groups, have often visited a health-care provider before their suicide,
and have more physical illnesses.

� Persons under age 25 years accounted for 16.4% of all suicides in 1992.

From 1952-1992, the incidence of suicide among adolescents and young adults

nearly tripled. From 1980-1992, the rate of suicide among persons aged 15-19
years increased by 28.3 % and among persons aged 10-14 years by 120%. For
African American males aged 15-19, the rate increased 165.3 %.

� For young, people 15 to 24 years old, suicide is the third leading cause of
death, behind unintentional injury and homicide. In 1992 more teenagers and
young adults died from suicide than died from cancer, heart disease, AIDS,
birth defects, stroke, pneumonia and influenza, and chronic lung disease

� Among persons aged 15-19 years, firearm-related suicides accounted for 81 %
of the increase in the overall rate of suicide from 1980-1992.

� People living in a household where a firearm is kept are almost five times
more likely to die by suicide than people who live in gun-free homes. (Ref.:
Kellerman et al, Suicide in the home in relation to gun ownership. New
England Journal of Medicine 1992;327;467-72)

� The risk for suicide among young people is greatest among young white
males; however, from 1980 through 1992, suicide rates increased most rapidly
among young black males. Although suicide among children is a rare event, the
dramatic increase in the rate among persons aged 10-14 years underscores the
urgent need for intensifying efforts-to prevent suicide among- persons in
this age group.

1Suicide data was obtained from vital statistics on the underlying causes of
death prepared annually by the National Center for Health Statistics at the
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.



Myth: People who talk about killing themselves rarely commit suicide.
Fact: Most people who commit suicide have given some verbal clues or warning
of their intention.

Myth: The tendency toward suicide is inherited and passed from generation to
Fact: Although suicidal behavior does tend to run in families, it does not
appear to be transmitted genetically.

Myth: The suicidal person wants to die and feels that there is no turning
Fact: Suicidal people are usually ambivalent about dying and frequently will
seek help immediately after attempting the harm themselves.

Myth: All suicidal people are deeply depressed.
Fact: Although depression is often closely associated with suicidal feelings,
not all people who kill themselves are obviously depressed. In fact some
suicidal people appear to be happier than they've been in years because they
have decided to "resolve" all of their problems by killing themselves. Also,
people who are extremely depressed usually do not have the energy to kill

Myth: There is no correlation between alcoholism and suicide.
Fact: Alcoholism and suicide often go hand in hand. Alcoholics are prodded to
suicidal behavior and even people who don't normally drink will often ingest
alcohol shortly before killing themselves.

Myth: Suicidal people are mentally ill.
Fact: Although many suicidal people are depressed and distraught, most could
not be diagnosed as mentally ill; perhaps only about 25 percent of them are
actually psychotic.

Myth: Once someone attempts suicide, that person will always entertain
thoughts of suicide.
Fact: Most people who are suicidal are so for only a very brief period once
in their lives. If the person receives the proper support and assistance,
he/she will probably never be suicidal again. Only about 10 percent of the
people who attempt later kill themselves.

Myth: If you ask someone about their suicidal intentions, you will only
encourage them to kill themselves.
Fact: Actually the opposite is true. Asking someone directly about their
suicidal intentions will often lower their anxiety level and act as a
deterrent to suicidal behavior by encouraging the ventilation of pent-up
emotions through a frank discussion of his problems.

Myth: Suicide is quite common among the lower class.
Fact: Suicide crosses all socioeconomic distinctions and no one class is more
susceptible to it than another.

Myth: Suicidal people rarely seek medical attention.
Fact: Research has consistently shown that about 75 percent of suicidal
people will visit a physician within the month before they kill themselves.

When a control system is all out of purposes, belives they, can no longer
make effective changes, and percive only disturbances. The ideations, plans,
and intentions of sucide come to volition.

Mark Lazare

[From Tim Carey (980422.0515)]

Hi Mark, it's nice to hear from you again.

One of the problems I have with speculations about causes of suicide is that
you are only able to get information from people who have been
_unsuccessful_ as exemplified by:

Myth: The suicidal person wants to die and feels that there is no turning
Fact: Suicidal people are usually ambivalent about dying and frequently


seek help immediately after attempting the harm themselves.

This data can only be collected surely from unsuccessfully suicidal people.
Perhaps this "fact" applies to unsuccessfully suicidal people but not at all
to successfully suicidal people.

One of the first criteria for doing the Test is that you need a _living_
control system :wink:

Apart from it's permanency I'm not sure that suicide as a way of solving a
problem is so different from any other option that might occur to a person
who is reorganising. In fact it's probably the most dramatic up-a-level way
of altering a persisting conflict that I know of.

As some of you will know my dad committed suicide last year. As I read more
about suicide I discovered that he was in the highest risk group for suicide
but he gave no indication any of his family could pick up on at the time
that that was what he intended and yet afterwards it seemed like he had been
planning it for a while. Sure afterwards some of our family could identify
times when he said something or other but if it's not a clue _at the time_
then in my head _it's not a clue_ .... I don't think retrospective clues are
very helpful in this instance :wink: And for dad I think this was probably the
most empowering thing he had done in decades. I actually cheered for the guy
... and yes! I was (am) very fond of him.

Just some thoughts,




From: Lazare, Mark Crisis counselor, Phoenix AZ <DTSDTO@AOL.COM>