the birth of an alter

CSGnet Archive CSG1999
1

[From Bill Powers (990928.1325 MDT)]

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Subject: 9/28/99
Date: the birth of an alter

Some PCT thoughts/questions: Did I witness the reorganization process at
work? If so, the new part was not completely random but was related to the
specific trauma.

This doesn't look like reorganization to me. It looks like a systematic way
of trying to handle serious problems, a way that this person has used many
times before and now has used again, simply because she doesn't know how to
do anything else that will help her. In her pain, rage, and despair, she
may find it impossible to step back enough to see her new alter as
something she has created for a purpose. I believe that if she is to
recover, that is what she has to do. But she needs to be protected! How was
she ever exposed to such barbarous attacks? How can she ever learn to trust
a world that allows such things to happen to her? It would not be at all
surprising to me if she decided she would be better off dead. If I were
her, I would be seriously considering that solution. Wouldn't you? I'm sure
you have this very much in mind.

I think it's a mistake to give the alters too much credibility. They are
the means by which a person is trying to handle horrible problems, but they
are not as real as the person who created them. There are better means, and
given the opportunity, the breathing space and the needed safety, I think
the person will find them. After assuring this person's safety, I would try
to get back to the method of levels. She is in there, as you know. She is
the only one who can decide to stop using alters as puppets who shield her
from the world, if she can work out a better way. I know you hope she can,
and so do I.

Best,

Bill P.

The new part seemed to have the purpose of revenge. It is

···

interesting that the name of this new part was "the Raven" which sounds like
revenge to me. This makes me think that the reorganization system is not
completely random.

2

[From Bill Powers (990930.1156 MDT)]

BJ Webster (990930)--

Thank you for your kind welcome. I found PCT on the internet and experienced
a big "Aha!" After reading the internet material, I ordered William Powers'
book "Behavior: The Control of Perception" from de Gruyter and it is promised
for next week.

BJ, welcome to CSGnet and good luck with my book. I wish it were better and
clearer than it is, but maybe it will give you some ideas. I enjoy your
comments to Dave Goldstein, although in the course of things I will
probably scold you for thinking too metaphorically. But maybe what you're
saying is that _people_ think metaphorically, which of course I would have
to agree with. To paraphrase, "Nothing human is foreign to PCT".

Best,

Bill P.

···

I have no experience with DID. For three years I worked with indigent adults
diagnosed with chronic Schizophrenia. I found that if I listened carefully
to them, like a detective looking for clues, their "incoherent ramblings"
became coherent and together we were able to talk about them. There was no
"cure" but there was a definite calming effect and positive benefits. This
was acknowledged by my peers and the psychiatrist in charge who (strangely I
think) found it unusual.

When I first read your post I immediately thought "The Raven is the one who
let all of the people out of the box (actually clam shell)! Could this be
the core alter, if there is such a thing?"

In answer to your question, if she does not know, then I think the answer is
"No." However, the Haida story of the Raven is found throughout popular
fiction, graphic novels, etc. I would then wonder about Poe's Raven or
perhaps a character in the media. I find it very meaningful that the alter
has this powerful name. I would think that she is trying to tell you
something, even if she is not currently aware of it.
All the best,
BJ Webster

3

In a message dated 9/28/99 2:23:38 AM, davidmg@SNIP.NET writes:

<< It is
interesting that the name of this new part was "the Raven" which sounds like
revenge to me >>

from Bonnie Jean Webster (990928.0955 PDT)
Dear Dr. Goldstein,
Please forgive my impertinence. I am a new reader of CSGnet and have not
posted or introduced myself yet. However, when I saw your reference to "the
Raven," I thought I might be able to contribute the following information
am currently a psychotherapist intern in Santa Barbara, California.
All the best,
Bonnie Jean Webster

Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation web site:
http://www.civilization.ca/cmcchome.html
In Haida mythology, Raven is a central actor. His role is that of cultural
hero, transformer and magician. Full of supernatural power, he is attributed
with scattering lakes, rivers and trees over the land and populating them
with fish and animals. He stole the sun from a box where it was hidden and
made the moon and stars from it. And he released humans onto the beaches and
gave them fire.
The Haida tell of a primordial time where no divisions existed between
humans, animals and spirits. It was an age when all realms of existence were
interconnected and all beings could pass freely between them. A significant
event in mythical time occurred when Raven released the first humans from a
clamshell in which they were hiding. Since that time the Haida have divided
themselves between two families: Ravens and Eagles. Ownership of their family
crests, territories, stories and dances have been passed down for centuries
through birth and marriage.
Throughout the Northwest Coast, Raven, the trickster has summoned men and
women to their daily doings, reminding them of the follies of human flesh and
spirit. Here, at the ancient Haida village of Skedans, a new day dawns, and
Raven chuckles.

Northwest coast Native American art:
RAVEN AND FIRST MEN
This is a reproduction of a work by well known Bill Reid. Collected
internationally and much honored, Bill Reid created the Spirit of Haida
Gwaii at the Canadian embassy in Washington D.C. and the Jade Canoe
at the Vancouver International Airport.
After a great flood the Raven, who was bored stumbled onto a clam from
which squeaky sounds could be heard. Curious the Raven enjoyed his new
plaything and coerced the little creatures to come out of the clamshell. To
his surprise they were four-legged creatures; the first humans.

···

from my years of studies in Northwest Coast Native American art history. I

4

In a message dated 9/29/99 11:16:23 AM, davidmg@SNIP.NET writes:

<< I have no idea whether the woman knows about the information you cited. If
she does not, would you still think that it could bear on the question of
why she named the alter "the Raven?"
>>
from BJWebster (990929.1212 PDT)

Dear Dr. Goldstein,
Thank you for your kind welcome. I found PCT on the internet and experienced
a big "Aha!" After reading the internet material, I ordered William Powers'
book "Behavior: The Control of Perception" from de Gruyter and it is promised
for next week.

I have no experience with DID. For three years I worked with indigent adults
diagnosed with chronic Schizophrenia. I found that if I listened carefully
to them, like a detective looking for clues, their "incoherent ramblings"
became coherent and together we were able to talk about them. There was no
"cure" but there was a definite calming effect and positive benefits. This
was acknowledged by my peers and the psychiatrist in charge who (strangely I
think) found it unusual.

When I first read your post I immediately thought "The Raven is the one who
let all of the people out of the box (actually clam shell)! Could this be
the core alter, if there is such a thing?"

In answer to your question, if she does not know, then I think the answer is
"No." However, the Haida story of the Raven is found throughout popular
fiction, graphic novels, etc. I would then wonder about Poe's Raven or
perhaps a character in the media. I find it very meaningful that the alter
has this powerful name. I would think that she is trying to tell you
something, even if she is not currently aware of it.
All the best,
BJ Webster

5

[From BJ Webster (990930.1410 PDT)]

In a message dated 9/30/99 12:21:41 PM, powers_w@FRONTIER.NET writes:

<< BJ, welcome to CSGnet and good luck with my book. I wish it were better and
clearer than it is, but maybe it will give you some ideas. >>

Bill Powers (990930)--

Thank you very much for welcoming me. I look forward to reading your book.
I enjoy reading the CSGnet posts and have learned a great deal from them.
Perhaps in the future I may have something to contribute.

All the best,
BJ Webster (The Metaphorical Thinker)

6

Date: the birth of an alter

For the past year or so, a woman I see in therapy has been surviving
attempts by self-destructive parts. She has been in and out of the
psychiatric hospital several times after these self-destructive parts
resulted in serious bodily harm. This woman has what is called Dissociative
Identity Disorder (DID).

The theory is that these self-destructive parts are somehow the result of
trauma. This woman was severely abused over the years by her mother, father,
boyfriend, and ex-first husband.

Her most recent psychiatric hospitalization was for 12 weeks. She came out
of her stay much improved in terms of new knowledge and skills. I had seen
her about 5 sessions after her release and was much encouraged.

Tragically, life still is not kind to her. She was waiting at a red light
and a man entered her van. He put a knife to her throat. He robbed her of
money and then raped her and beat her and cut her.

Following this terrible event, she cooperated with the police in giving a
description. There were two parts of her who knew different parts of the
nightmarish story. Her testimony was video taped by the police as the two
parts gave their account.

Unfortunately, one of the internal helper parts informed me that a new,
self-destructive part was activated. The internal helper tried to contain it
and talk to it. However, he was not successful. The new self-destructive
part found its way out and attempted to burn the woman in a shower. She is
back in the hospital, which is the only safe place until this
self-destructive part agrees not to hurt the body.

Some PCT thoughts/questions: Did I witness the reorganization process at
work? If so, the new part was not completely random but was related to the
specific trauma. The new part seemed to have the purpose of revenge. It is
interesting that the name of this new part was "the Raven" which sounds like
revenge to me. This makes me think that the reorganization system is not
completely random.

···

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Subject: 9/28/99

7

Re.: BJ Webster on 9/28/99

Thanks for all the information on "the Raven." And welcome to CSGnet. I knew
none of what you told me.

After listening to one of the internal helpers of this woman about the
Raven, I was guessing why she named the new alter "the Raven".

I have no idea whether the woman knows about the information you cited. If
she does not, would you still think that it could bear on the question of
why she named the alter "the Raven?"

···

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Subject: Re: the birth of an alter
Date: 9/29/99

8

Re.: [From Bill Powers (990928.1325 MDT)]

If I understand you correctly Bill, you are saying that the new alter was
not the result of reorganization but of a strategy for dealing with stress
which this woman has used over and over again.

A strategy? principle level perception? "When under great stress, create an
alter and give it a purpose."

I suppose that "she" could have created the alter through imagination. But
then, how come she did not know about it until I told her? And how come it
was disturbing to her?

The internal helper who informed me that "It is not safe anymore" reports
that it was formed from memory fragments. It concerned him that the choice
of memory fragments involved rage. The internal helper did not want the
birth person to know about it, thought it would be too stressful. The
internal helper says that there are many fragments and parts which are
inactivated. He watches over them.

···

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Subject: Re: the birth of an alter
Date: 9/29/99

9

Re.: [From Dick Robertson,990928.0705CDT]

Hi Dick,

Among the alters, there seem to be three which have a helper role. The woman
is aware of and communicates with two of these alters. The third one is
known by name to the woman but prefers to stay distant. This one, called the
Keeper, has told me that he is afraid of overwhelming her with too much
information. There is apparently a lot of fragments amd memories in a
dormant state. In the case of the Raven, the latest traumatic experience was
followed with the formation of a new alter, the Raven. Once it was formed,
the Keeper tried to talk to it and persuade it not to hurt the body. The
Raven, is reported to have ignored the Keeper.

The formation of the new alter seemed to happen. There was no obvious agent
responsible for it. If there is one, none of the alters knows.

There is a random-like process involved in the formation, but the new alter
does seem to have a role or purpose.

I agree that her decision to go into the hospital was rationale decision. It
was designed to avoid serious injury from the Raven.

···

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Subject: Re: the birth of an alter
Date: 9/30/99

10

Hi Tim,

I'll begin the exercise you suggested. It is an interesting one. I am not
sure a translation is possible.

Here goes:

Among the alters, there seem to be three which have a helper role. The woman
is aware of and communicates with two of these alters. The third one is
known by name to the woman but prefers to stay distant. This one, called the
Keeper, has told me that he is afraid of overwhelming her with too much
information. There is apparently a lot of fragments and memories in a
dormant state. In the case of the Raven, the latest traumatic experience was
followed with the formation of a new alter, the Raven. Once it was formed,
the Keeper tried to talk to it and persuade it not to hurt the body. The
Raven, is reported to have ignored the Keeper.

There are three self-image systems, which are at a system level of
perception.

        A B C D E

Self-image A is the birth person Elaine. Self-image B is a helper named
Mouse. Self-image C is a helper named Kat. Self-image D is a helper named
the Keeper. Self-image E is the Raven. For ease of discussion, we can speak
about the Elaine part, the Mouse part, the Kat part and the Keeper part.

The Mouse, Kat and Keeper parts have a cooperative relationship with the
Elaine part. The Raven part has a conflicted relationship with the Elaine
part.

The Elaine part can perceive the Mouse and Kat parts but not the Keeper part
or the Raven part. The Keeper part can perceive all the parts.

I am tired. That is all for tonight.

···

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Subject: Re: Re: the birth of an alter
Date: 9/30/99

11

[From Dick Robertson,990928.0705CDT]

David Goldstein wrote:

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Subject: 9/28/99
Date: the birth of an alter

For the past year or so, a woman I see in therapy has been surviving
attempts by self-destructive parts. She has been in and out of the
psychiatric hospital several times after these self-destructive parts
resulted in serious bodily harm. This woman has what is called Dissociative
Identity Disorder (DID).

The theory is that these self-destructive parts are somehow the result of
trauma. This woman was severely abused over the years by her mother, father,
boyfriend, and ex-first husband.

Her most recent psychiatric hospitalization was for 12 weeks. She came out
of her stay much improved in terms of new knowledge and skills. I had seen
her about 5 sessions after her release and was much encouraged.

Tragically, life still is not kind to her. She was waiting at a red light
and a man entered her van. He put a knife to her throat. He robbed her of
money and then raped her and beat her and cut her.

Following this terrible event, she cooperated with the police in giving a
description. There were two parts of her who knew different parts of the
nightmarish story. Her testimony was video taped by the police as the two
parts gave their account.

Unfortunately, one of the internal helper parts informed me that a new,
self-destructive part was activated. The internal helper tried to contain it
and talk to it. However, he was not successful. The new self-destructive
part found its way out and attempted to burn the woman in a shower. She is
back in the hospital, which is the only safe place until this
self-destructive part agrees not to hurt the body.

Some PCT thoughts/questions: Did I witness the reorganization process at
work? If so, the new part was not completely random but was related to the
specific trauma. The new part seemed to have the purpose of revenge. It is
interesting that the name of this new part was "the Raven" which sounds like
revenge to me. This makes me think that the reorganization system is not
completely random.

Well, this is an interesting (though sad) story. And it does seem to suggest
that there was reorganization going on. But, of what, exactly? If we can
assume a "self" system, tentatviely, could we speculate that this system
perceives the several "images" that you described, and then perceived one
more--the new--one? If there was reorganization at that point, and accepting
the postulate that reorganization is inherently a random process, might it not
be reasoning backwards to infer that the new "personality=image" _had_ to be a
revengefull one?

I think of it in terms of one person, one brain, one body producing these
various "images" or descriptions of herself to the external audience (and maybe
including herself as a member of that audience. But, getting herself back in
the hospital because that is the safest place sounds like a pure control effort
of that body and I don't see that any reorganization was necessary to achieve
that end, although some might have occurred.

Best, Dick R.

12

[From Tim Carey (990930.2145)]

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.

Hi David,

Sorry to butt in on your conversation with Dick, I won't stay long. I have
read with interest the case you describe and I was wondering whether or not
you think it would be an interesting exercise (if only from an academic
point of view perhaps) to describe this woman using only PCT terminology.

This may be a crazy idea but my head is still spinning from reading Naming
the Mind by Kurt Danziger (recommended by Phil Runkel). Danziger introduces
(to me anyway) the provocative idea that many of the terms used in modern
psychology (e.g., stimulus, variable, personality, motivation, attitude,
reflex, cognition, behaviour) are neither theory nor phenomenon. Danziger
proposes instead, that these terms refer to categories that have been
constructed. And while psychologists may have theories _about_ a particular
category such things as personality (or motivation, or attitude, etc), there
is a very real lack of questionning why a particular way of categorising is
more "real" or "natural" than another. The purpose of Danziger's book seems
to me to be an attempt to begin this questionning.

So with that in mind, I wonder what:

Among the alters, there seem to be three which have a helper role. The

woman

is aware of and communicates with two of these alters. The third one is
known by name to the woman but prefers to stay distant. This one, called

the

Keeper, has told me that he is afraid of overwhelming her with too much
information. There is apparently a lot of fragments amd memories in a
dormant state. In the case of the Raven, the latest traumatic experience

was

followed with the formation of a new alter, the Raven. Once it was formed,
the Keeper tried to talk to it and persuade it not to hurt the body. The
Raven, is reported to have ignored the Keeper.

would sound like if terms like "reference", "perception", "controlling for",
"error", "awareness", "level of perception", etc., were the only ones
permissible.

I don't pretend for a minute that I have the answers. It's just an idle
speculation. Sometimes, in periods of idleness, I try and speculate this
way. Perhaps others do too.

Cheers,

Tim