The intentions formerly known as goals (was Re: Emotion)

CSGnet Archive CSG2003
1

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.23.1645)]

Bill Powers (2003.05.23.2002 MDT)

Bruce Gregory (2003.0523.2033)--

I get the impression that you (and Marc) want to reserve the term "goal" to
mean the conscious experience of a reference condition, or something like a
reference condition. By the assumptions of the model, which forbid
perceiving anything but perceptual signals, we never perceive dcowngoing
reference signals themselves, or error signals either. So I'm on the verge
of agreeing to the proposition that goals are consciously imagined versions
of reference signals. What we think of as our goals, if that's true, may
not in fact be the operative reference signals. They may be what we want
ourselves and others to believe are our reference signals. That fits nicely
into Argyris' terminology about professed philosophy and
philosophy-in-practice.

Ok. So from now on, when you talk about "goals", I will assume you are talking
about a subset of our imaginings which are only those concerning our own
intentions (intentions being formerly known as goals). But what do we call
those imaginings that concern other things than our own intentions, like
imaginings about the intentions of others, or about what Pangaea looked like,
or about what Lincoln sounded like?

I'm sure that sounds like nonsense to a lot of people.

I'm sure I'll get used to it. But it seems like there already are a number of
other words that point to what you now want to call "goals": "aspirations" and
"wishes", come to mind. And what will we call the intentions formerly known
as goals? Prince?

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

2

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0524.2048)]

Rick Marken (2003.05.23.1645)

Ok. So from now on, when you talk about "goals", I will assume you are talking
about a subset of our imaginings which are only those concerning our own
intentions (intentions being formerly known as goals). But what do we call
those imaginings that concern other things than our own intentions, like
imaginings about the intentions of others, or about what Pangaea looked like,
or about what Lincoln sounded like?

Imaginings.

I'm sure I'll get used to it. But it seems like there already are a number of
other words that point to what you now want to call "goals": "aspirations" and
"wishes", come to mind. And what will we call the intentions formerly known
as goals? Prince?

In my view, a real problem is "goals" that are _not_ intentions. That is
imaginings that we would like to realize (talking to Liv Tyler about
PCT) but which we are doing nothing to achieve. It occurs to me that
another feature of these imaginings is that Testing for them is about
the only way to make it possible to realize them. ("Let's see if he
really wants to talk to Liv about PCT. I'll arrange for them to have
lunch next week...")

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

3

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.24.1859 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (2003.0524.2048)--

>In my view, a real problem is "goals" that are _not_ intentions. That is
>imaginings that we would like to realize (talking to Liv Tyler about
>PCT) but which we are doing nothing to achieve.

OK, this suggests that your meaning of "intention" includes the connotation
that we are acting to achieve it. Without getting into details about
reference signals versus goals, I think we can find some meanings for words
like intention that could be agreed upon. Maybe a good place to start would
be a dictionary or a thesaurus.

Suppose we start with a proposed root meaning of "goal" as the set of
imagined reference signals we see collectively as defining a possible
outcome of action (open to discussion of course). You have raised the point
that we can consider that we have goals that we would like to attain if it
were possible, but which we really don't believe can be attained ("wish").
Then there is "hope," which is a little more optimistic than wish, but wish
and hope share the connotation that some other agency would have to bring
the goal-state about; we have no means of our own of acting to realize the
goal. From there we can move to "aim", "objective." or "target" which
implies some degree of action but perhaps still remaining to be worked out.
Somewhere in here is the unadorned "goal" which implies an aim that relates
to and explains an ongoing action, and somewhere farther on, "intention,"
by which I think it is understood that there is a serious attempt to
achieve the goal despite all obstacles and an expectation of success.

I haven't used any reference works for this quasi-list, but perhaps it will
suggest a more thorough and orderly approach to someone else. This may be
more or less what Marc has in mind for a lexicon.

Best,

Bill P.

4

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.24.1915 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2003.05.23.1645)--

>Ok. So from now on, when you talk about "goals", I will assume you are
talking
>about a subset of our imaginings which are only those concerning our own
>intentions (intentions being formerly known as goals).

"Intentions" really belong on the same side of the line between theoretical
and experiential as the term "goal." On the theoretical side is "reference
signal," a technical term belonging to PCT. On the other side are the
informal terms that we need to define more clearly in terms relating to
PCT. When you say, "I think I'll play racketball tonight," you're stating a
goal, in informal language, which actually implies a large set of
simultaneous reference signals for many systems at the same and different
orders in the hierarchy. When we say "reference signal" we mean exactly one
of those signals entering exactly one control system, but it's very
unlikely that the meaning of "I think I'll play racketball" could be
reduced to one single signal and one control system. It's a set of signals
existing simultaneously within the area of the hierarchy where our
awareness is engaged and which is therefore operating in the conscious mode.

The simple concept of goal is reasonably close to the idea of a reference
signal, if we remember that we're talking about a set of reference signals.
The other terms we use bring in ideas in addition to the central goal we're
talking about -- how much we want to achieve it, what degree of success we
anticipate, what degree of control we think we have over the outcome, how
much effort we are willing to expend to get there, and so forth. All these
considerations can relate to the same goal, but they bring in other
considerations and modify how we think of the goal. To say "I wish I could
get an A on the exam" has to do with the goal of getting an A on the exam.
To say "I intend to get an A on the exam" has to do with the very same
goal, but clearly implies something different about our prediction or
anticipation that the goal will be achieved. Since we're talking on the
experiential, informal side of the line, the translation of these different
expressions into PCT will clearly involve expanding them into a lot of
detail that the words only allude to (if we can).

See post to Bruce G, too, for more on this.

Best,

Bill P.
'

5

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.24.2235) ]

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.23.1645)]

C'mon Rick, :slight_smile: You make it seem like the passing of a good friend. You'll
do just fine. :slight_smile:

Ok. So from now on, when you talk about "goals", I will assume you are

talking

about a subset of our imaginings which are only those concerning our own
intentions (intentions being formerly known as goals). But what do we call
those imaginings that concern other things than our own intentions, like
imaginings about the intentions of others, or about what Pangaea looked

like,

or about what Lincoln sounded like?

How about "imaginings"?, and for the the imagining of others, how about
"educated guesses", can they ever be anything else?

> I'm sure that sounds like nonsense to a lot of people.

I'm sure I'll get used to it. But it seems like there already are a number

of

other words that point to what you now want to call "goals": "aspirations"

and

"wishes", come to mind. And what will we call the intentions formerly

known

as goals? Prince?

If those "intentions" concern _a_ single control system, we already have a
nice name, "Reference Condition".

Aspirations, wishes, desires, etc. need some work. :slight_smile: Argyris might help us
out here.

Marc

6

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.24.2248) ]

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.24.1859 MDT)]

I haven't used any reference works for this quasi-list, but perhaps it

will

suggest a more thorough and orderly approach to someone else. This may be
more or less what Marc has in mind for a lexicon.

Yes, Your on a roll today. I like it. :slight_smile: It's exactly what I intended. Now
I hope everyone can see why. It would be nice one day if any of these
"definitions" became the nth definition of a word in any dictionary.

Excellent start, great beginning. Very nice post.

Suppose we start with a proposed root meaning of "goal" as the set of
imagined reference signals we see collectively as defining a possible
outcome of action (open to discussion of course).

Yes. This also brings up an important point. "root meanings". We need to be
consistent, and ultimately by being explicit we can become just as ambiguous
as everyone else by going around in circles, except with one _huge_
difference. Our "loop" begins and ends with the model. All "root"
definitions must be based on model entities and processes. This of course is
simply a suggestion on my part.

You have raised the point
that we can consider that we have goals that we would like to attain if it
were possible, but which we really don't believe can be attained ("wish").

Possible definition #2. Wish.

Then there is "hope," which is a little more optimistic than wish, but

wish

and hope share the connotation that some other agency would have to bring
the goal-state about; we have no means of our own of acting to realize the
goal.

Possible definition #3. Hope

From there we can move to "aim", "objective." or "target" which
implies some degree of action but perhaps still remaining to be worked

out.

Yes, and all based on the root word "goal". Not a bad start. The root word
of course is the "anchor" and allows you a base to move from. Perhaps we
should be interested in first defining, roots. It can get pretty crazy; it d
idn't take you long to get to "wish" and "hope"

Somewhere in here is the unadorned "goal" which implies an aim that

relates

to and explains an ongoing action, and somewhere farther on, "intention,"
by which I think it is understood that there is a serious attempt to
achieve the goal despite all obstacles and an expectation of success.

I don't think this changes the definition or brings on the need for a new
word. As long as goals are relatively short in time, You can expect to
succeed as long as the goal was actually doable to begin with, and major
disturbances were not encountered. As the time increases and so does the
number of control systems involved in the path toward the goal, the more
likely you are to run into problems in meeting your goal. A good HPCT goal
strategy would be, keep it as simple as possible and as short a time
horizon as useful.

Marc