The Joy of the CSGNet Archives

Rick,

You didn’t need to trouble yourself with searching for rare cases where »protection is used«. This kind of search was made before by Matti. He also came to the similar conclussion. That sometimes Bill changed his mind and used some other term. It’s alao in Bill’s lietrature.

But this exception is not a general rule and it has no concequences on PCT where »Perception is controlled«.

On general Bill’s theory include terms such as : counteraction, cancel, aadjusting, compensating etc. This are much more frequently used terms what can you easily check searching the archive and Bill’s literature. My estimation is that mentioned terms occupy 99% of Powers legacy. So the ratio between terms »counteraction, compensation, cancel, adjust….« and »protection« inn about 99 : 1.

You operated with 1% terms and on that bases yu generalized that PCT is » protecting« theory instead of proving that PCT is »Perceptual Control Theory«. You play very dirty game Rick so I wonder if you are really a scientist or you bought your PhD. If you would be scientist the ratio of frequences would tell you immedialtely what terms are presenting real PCT. Mots frequent terms which are as we already mentioned : Cancel, counteraction, adjust, …… are pointing to »Perceptual Control Theory« as they provide control for disturbances which are affecting organism. Also Ashby knew that.

Your manipulation with searching rarerly used terms is just an attempt that you could support your wrong RCT. But you didin’t succed, as you didn’t act scientifically. You didn’t conclude on the bases of frequently used terms but on some manipulative bases of rarely used term. So your conclussions as usual are wrong.

“The CV” is the observer’s perception. However, if the observer happens

to be using a perceptual system closely similar to that in the behaving
system, it is possible for the observer’s perception to covary with the
behaving system’s perception. Then the observer will see that the CV is
protected from disturbances by the actions of the behaving system, and the
CV will pass all the parts of the Test.

HB :

I also stressed »it is possible« that members of CSGnet wouldn’t think that Bill was talking about general rule. You manipulativelly omitted this fact. Even if what Bill was talking about could happen, it would be very rarely so it’s not the general model. »The CV« is in inverted commas so it hasn’t any real significant meaning so I think that is just some kind of simbolic meaning. Anyway if mouse, elephant and some inhabitatnts of Africa would watch you going down the street they wouldn’t see any CV or any kind of control in environment in your moving. Mostly people don’t think in this way. BUT ITS’ POSSIBLE that some Rick and Ricky could.

As I said before Bill changed his mind some times and he could rarely explain something with »wrong« terms or maybe more simbolic.

The core terms of his theory present PCT (at least in his literature). Those core terms are as we mentioned before : counteraction, cancel, adjust, and so on which represent that distrubances are all the time affecting organism and organism »responds« with control. This is also what general definiton of control means :

Bill P.

This is general definition of control and it is connected to »canceling the effects of disturbances« what enable controlling system to maintain perception near preselected state. There is no »system protected from disturbances« in his general definition.

Bill P :

It could be that this model-based control process might work satisfactorily for higher-level systems that are slow anyway, and that are somewhat protected against disturbances by the actions of lower-level systems.

HB : It is possible that higher levels might be somewhat »protected from disturbances« but it’s much more possible that higher levels adjust actions of lower-level sub-systems and cancel or counteract the effects of disturbances. There is too much »might« and » somewhat« in this Bills thought that could lead you to wrong conclussion that Bill is talking something about general rules. Maybe Bill was just experimenting. But you used it in manipulative way as usual. But whatever Bill was talking about can be used in some other discussions whcih I had with some other PCT’ers.

Bill P :

As with Lovelock’s concept of Gaia as a global control (well, equilibrium) system, it’s possible that we are seeing a composite system made of many individual control systems, but before I can go along with that I would need some evidence that GDP is protected against disturbances by some mean activity that depends on departures of GDP from its composite reference level.

HB : Again it is possible…. But unlikely…

All in all I think that you are misleading CSGnet as you always did with rare things in Bills’ legacy. You are a manipulator Rick of the worst kind.

If you want to prove opposite (so that you are not a manipulator) it’s important that you do the research for other terms that are used more properly in PCT : counteraction, compensation, cancel the effects, adjust and so on. Then try to conclude (it will not be hard as you have PhD, if you really made it) how scientifically term »protect from disturbances« is used in PCT to describe PCT as »protecting theory«. You’ll see that ratio is to high in favour of other terms, so that you’ll have to admitt that you were wrong about scientifically using term »protected« in PCT and that PCT is not »protecting theory« but »Perceptual Control Theory«…

So I want you to prove that Bill used term »proteced from disturbances« more often than other terms which are showing something else, so that we can be sure that we are talking about the same theory. I think that you are talking about RCT (Rick’s Control Theory).

Bill P :

Most behavioral scientists would lose interest even faster if I presented a paper showing how the internal part of the control loop works. They would say “What control loop?” If they don’t understand that behavior is control, why would they be interested in a model of how control works?

HB :

We’ve gone through this one many times (see our discusions) and we’ve seen form Bills’ definitions (B:CP, 2005) that he ddin’d used »Behavior and Control« more than once in B:CP definitions where he was ambiguous in meaning. In all othet cases he used other terms which are proving that PCT is about »Perception is Controlled«. See Bills definitions in B:CP. As I said before Bill did change his mind sometimes, and if the »Behavior is control« you have to prove that. Bill proved with physiogical knowledge that »Behavior can’t be controlled« directly. So can you prove that »Behavior is Control« ? If you can’t than I expect that you will stop misleading CSGnet forum for good.

I understand that you’ll hardly abandon your old terminology that you built over decades. But using it clearly shows that you don’t understand PCT.

Your RCT control loop is clear : behavior is control à there is CV in environment affected by controlled behavior à CV is protected from disturbances à efects of control on »Controlled Perceptual variable«.

So from controlled behavior, which is »protecting CV« in outer environment from disturbances, control enters though »Controlled perception« into comparator. This is a mess Rick. And similar mess is carried out by self-regulation theorist and probably by Jeff Vancouver.

The most important thing would be that you would understand how organisms function. This is reference. It’s what PCT is about. PCT is today probably the best model of organisms functioning if you use support of physiology. You’ll probably never understand it, but it can not be the excuse for what you are doing. Why don’t you use most frequently used PCT terminology, what you showed that you can. In this way you could contribute to development of PCT. Even you did some exceptions when you did write about PCT. I clearly showed the differences. You can aslo search that in archive.Â

The reason for not understanding PCT is simple. You don’t understand physiology or how organisms really work. That is the problem of most psychologist and Jeff Vancouver.

I understand that you want to change PCT into something called RCT because you have to »protect« all your worthless legacy of books and articles which are RCT.

It’s not important what you wrote or didn’t write, it’s important whether you understand PCT and how organisms function. And you don’t. Do you understand where the problem is ?

The most reliable way to understand PCT is Bill’s Book LCS III and the diagram inside. I think that It’s most comprehensive and incorporate most of his knowledge about »Perceptual Control Theory«, which has almost nothing to do with self-regulaton and of course nothing to do with RCT (Ricks Control Theory).

image001121.jpgÂ

Bills’ diagram shows clearly that :

  1.   Behavior is not control
    
  2.   There is no »CV« in outer environment
    
  3.   There is no »Controlled perceptual variable«
    

This diagram is fully supported with physiological explanations in B:CP and is very much supported by Henry Yins’s articles where he even upgraded PCT. Thanks Matti to show »url« where Henry Yin wrote :

»Rather than the effect of some prior cause, behavior is the observable manifestation of control in teleological systems that act on the environment to make inputs match their internal reference values«.

Rick I told you many times before, that behavior is the result of control or it’s consequence of control (manifestation). Diagram above is clearly showing this. And as I said many times before, Henry Yin deserves special place in PCT.

Best,

Boris

image00284.png

···

From: Richard Marken [mailto:rsmarken@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 9:06 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Cc: Richard Marken
Subject: The Joy of the CSGNet Archives

[From Rick Marken (2016.12.12.1210)]

RM: I want to thank Rupert Young for encouraging me to install on my computer the CSGNet archives that are maintained by Dag Forssell at his “Living Control Systems” site. The whole megillah is there, with posts from the very beginning of CSGNet, in 1990. But what really makes this archive useful is that you can do keyword searchers through it using Eudora (for posts from 1992-present; posts from 1990-1991 are available only in PDF, rather than Eudora compatible, format). You can get to most of what you need to install it on your own computer here:

http://www.pctresources.com/CSGnet/Files/CSGnet_archive/Eudora_installed_with_mailboxes/

RM: And an explanation of how to install and use the archive is here:

http://www.pctresources.com/CSGnet/Files/CSGnet_archive/CSGnetReadMe.pdf

RM: I had some trouble installing it myself but then I’m not very good with computers. But once I got it installed it worked pretty well (ignoring the esoteric warning messages, probably a result of my early, apparently failed, attempts to install it). And I was able to do some fun things. For example, I was able to search through the archives to see whether Bill had ever used the dreaded phase “protected from disturbance”. And I managed to find one instance:

Bill Powers (990331.0033 MST) to Fred Nickols (990330.1820)–

“The CV” is the observer’s perception. However, if the observer happens

to be using a perceptual system closely similar to that in the behaving
system, it is possible for the observer’s perception to covary with the
behaving system’s perception. Then the observer will see that the CV is
protected from disturbances by the actions of the behaving system, and the
CV will pass all the parts of the Test.

RM: The nice thing about this quote is that it not only shows that Bill did talk about control as acting to protect a controlled variable (CV) from disturbance but also that he said what I’ve been saying about the controlled quantity – here called the CV – which is that it is a perception in the observer. It is the observer’s view of the perceptual variable controlled by the control system.

RM: But I was surprised to find that there was only one instance of Bill having used the phrase “protected from disturbance” in the whole of the CSGNet archives. But then, by accident, I found that what Bill said more frequently was that the controlled variable is protected against disturbance, which says essentially the same thing. Here they are:

Bill Powers (951124.1105 MST) to Martin Taylor 951124 11:00 –

CEV 1 is protected against disturbances of ACTION or LINK 1, and will follow the
reference signal given by LOOP 2’s output.

Bill Powers (2000.11.02.0351 MST) to Bruce Abbott (2000.12.01.1035 EST)-

Thus you can’t distinguish a reinforcement-operated system from a reorganizing control system if the controlled variable is protected against disturbances (independent influences that can change its value).

Bill Powers (2001.04.12.0514 MDT) to Bruce Gregory (2001.0411.1243)–

I agree that perceiving can occur without controlling, but if something more that perceiving is
involved we have to ask just what is different, and see whether it requires achieving some pretermined end that is protected against disturbances.

Bill Powers (2007.11.08.0714 MST)

It could be that this model-based control process might work satisfactorily for higher-level systems that are slow anyway, and that are somewhat protected against disturbances by the actions of lower-level systems.

Bill Powers (2009.09.25.1757 MDT) to Martin Taylor 2009.09.25.14.14 –

As with Lovelock’s concept of Gaia as a global control (well, equilibrium) system, it’s possible that we are seeing a composite system made of many individual control systems, but before I can go along with that I would need some evidence that GDP is protected against disturbances by some mean activity that depends on departures of GDP from its composite reference level.

Bill Powers (2011.12.08.1035 MST) to Boris Hartmann (12/8/2011)

But the Test for the Controlled Variable allows us to observe and measure the reference level toward which the behavior of a control system always urges the controlled variable, the variable we observe to be protected against disturbances by observable changes in the action of the system.

Bill Powers (2011.12.21.2245 MST)] to Ted Cloak (2011.12.16.1030 MST)

According to my World Futures essay, the most critical of these variables must be the ones that must be protected against disturbances in order for reproduction to remain

RM: And just for fun I thought I would see if Bill ever said the other terrible thing that I sometimes say, which is that “behavior is control”. I suspected that he had, since this is probably his most important observation, and sure enough:

Bill Powers 950630.2130 MDT) to Martin Taylor (950630.1730) –

Most behavioral scientists would lose interest even faster if I presented a paper showing how the internal part of the control loop works. They would say “What control loop?” If they don’t understand that behavior is control, why would they be interested in a model of how control works?

Bill Powers (951026.0530 MDT) to Chris Cherpas (951017.1113 Pacific) –

Right. Operant behavior is control behavior.

RM: The search function in Eudora has some quirks so there may be more instances of Bill saying “protected from (or against) disturbance” and “behavior is control” But, as Mercutio said about what turned out to be his mortal wound, 'twil serve.

Best regards

Rick

Richard S. Marken

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for themselves.” – William T. Powers

[From Rick Marken (2016.12.12.1210)]

RM: I want to thank Rupert Young for encouraging me to install on my computer the CSGNet archives that are maintained by Dag Forssell at his “Living Control Systems” site. The whole megillah is there, with posts from the very beginning of CSGNet, in 1990. But what really makes this archive useful is that you can do keyword searchers through it using Eudora (for posts from 1992-present; posts from 1990-1991 are available only in PDF, rather than Eudora compatible, format). You can get to most of what you need to install it on your own computer here:

http://www.pctresources.com/CSGnet/Files/CSGnet_archive/Eudora_installed_with_mailboxes/

RM: And an explanation of how to install and use the archive is here:

http://www.pctresources.com/CSGnet/Files/CSGnet_archive/CSGnetReadMe.pdf

RM: I had some trouble installing it myself but then I’m not very good with computers. But once I got it installed it worked pretty well (ignoring the esoteric warning messages, probably a result of my early, apparently failed, attempts to install it). And I was able to do some fun things. For example, I was able to search through the archives to see whether Bill had ever used the dreaded phase “protected from disturbance”. And I managed to find one instance:

Bill Powers (990331.0033 MST) to Fred Nickols (990330.1820)–
“The CV” is the
observer’s perception. However, if the observer happens
to be using a perceptual system
closely similar to that in the behaving
system, it is possible for the observer’s
perception to covary with the
behaving system’s perception. Then
the observer will see that the CV is
protected
from disturbances by the actions of the behaving
system, and the
CV will pass all the parts of the
Test.

RM: The nice thing about this quote is that it not only shows that Bill did talk about control as acting to protect a controlled variable (CV) from disturbance but also that he said what I’ve been saying about the controlled quantity – here called the CV – which is that it is a perception in the observer. It is the observer’s view of the perceptual variable controlled by the control system.

RM: But I was surprised to find that there was only one instance of Bill having used the phrase “protected from disturbance” in the whole of the CSGNet archives. But then, by accident, I found that what Bill said more frequently was that the controlled variable is protected against disturbance, which says essentially the same thing. Here they are:

Bill Powers (951124.1105 MST) to Martin Taylor 951124 11:00 –

CEV 1 is protected against disturbances of ACTION or LINK 1, and will follow the
reference signal given by LOOP 2’s output.

Bill Powers (2000.11.02.0351
MST) to Bruce Abbott (2000.12.01.1035 EST)-
Thus you can’t distinguish a
reinforcement-operated system from a reorganizing control system if the controlled variable is protected
against disturbances (independent influences that can change its value).

Bill Powers (2001.04.12.0514 MDT) to Bruce Gregory (2001.0411.1243)–

I agree that perceiving can occur without controlling, but if something more that perceiving is
involved we have to ask just what is different, and see whether it requires achieving some pretermined end that is protected against disturbances.

Bill Powers (2007.11.08.0714 MST)
It could be that this model-based control process might work satisfactorily for higher-level systems that are slow anyway, and that are somewhat protected against disturbances by the actions of lower-level systems.

Bill Powers (2009.09.25.1757 MDT) to Martin Taylor 2009.09.25.14.14 –
As with Lovelock’s concept of Gaia as a global control (well, equilibrium) system, it’s possible that we are seeing a composite system made of many individual control systems, but before I can go along with that I would need some evidence that GDP is protected against disturbances by some mean activity that depends on departures of GDP from its composite reference level.

Bill Powers (2011.12.08.1035 MST) to Boris Hartmann (12/8/2011)

But the Test for the Controlled
Variable allows us to observe and measure the reference level toward which the
behavior of a control system always urges the controlled variable, the variable
we observe to be protected
against disturbances by observable changes in the action of the system.

Bill Powers (2011.12.21.2245 MST)] to Ted Cloak (2011.12.16.1030 MST)
According to my World Futures essay,
the most critical of these variables must be the ones that must be protected against disturbances
in order for reproduction to remain

RM: And just for fun I thought I would see if Bill ever said the other terrible thing that I sometimes say, which is that “behavior is control”. I suspected that he had, since this is probably his most important observation, and sure enough:

Bill Powers 950630.2130 MDT) to Martin
Taylor (950630.1730) –
Most behavioral scientists would
lose interest even faster if I presented a paper showing how the internal part
of the control loop works. They would say “What control loop?” If
they don’t understand that behavior
is control, why would they be interested in a model of how control works?

Bill Powers (951026.0530 MDT) to Chris
Cherpas (951017.1113 Pacific) –

Right. Operant behavior is control
behavior.

RM: The search function in Eudora has some quirks so there may be more instances of Bill saying “protected from (or against) disturbance” and “behavior is control” But, as Mercutio said about what turned out to be his mortal wound, 'twil serve.

Best regards

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for
others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for
themselves.” – William T. Powers

[From Rupert Young (2016.12.13 11.30)]

You're welcome!

I also noticed that he used the phrase in the Science article you
pointed me to the other day, LCS p67, line 14.
Rupert

···

(From Rick Marken
(2016.12.12.1210)]

          RM: I want to thank

Rupert Young for encouraging me to install on my computer
the CSGNet archives that are maintained by Dag Forssell at
his “Living Control Systems” site. The whole megillah is
there, with posts from the very beginning of CSGNet, in
1990. But what really makes this archive useful is that
you can do keyword searchers through it using Eudora (for
posts from 1992-present; posts from 1990-1991 are
available only in PDF, rather than Eudora compatible,
format). You can get to most of what you need to install
it on your own computer here:

          RM:

I had some trouble installing it myself but then I’m not
very good with computers. But once I got it installed it
worked pretty well (ignoring the esoteric warning
messages, probably a result of my early, apparently
failed, attempts to install it). And I was able to do some
fun things. For example, I was able to search through the
archives to see whether Bill had ever used the dreaded
phase “protected from disturbance”. And I managed to find
one instance:

[From Lloyd Klinedinst (2016.12.23.1815CST)]

EUREKA, Mail; not Eudora

Thanks to Rupert, Rick, and Dag…for reawakening my atteention to CSGnet archives

	After some fruitless efforts to follow the directions from Dag’s November 28, 2015 CSGnetReadMe.pdf file (no fault of Dag; my own inexperience with Windows (I’m running WindowsXP on an Acer Aspire one >10yrs old)), I thought of the obvious: why not check my Mac OS X Mail Import function

Pasted Graphic.tiff|x

Selecting Eudora yielded nothing, but selecting the mbox format yielded 8 files from the CSG1992.fol folder:

Pasted Graphic 1.tiff|x

Further fussing around with search and filters, I was able to save an .rtf file containing all posts that include the 85 occurrences of the word, ‘survival’.

Does this look like the correct and complete number of files for this year/folder? I’d have to import all years to be able to do the kind of search Rick described from 1992-present.

Hope this information helps Mac users. I am also open to related or further suggestions to improve my use of the valuable resource of CSGnet communications over the years.

Lloyd

yyanimation12.gif

Dr. Lloyd Klinedinst
10 Dover Lane
Villa Ridge, MO 63089-2001
HomeVoice: (636) 451-3232

Lloyd Mobile: (314)-609-5571
email: lloydk@klinedinst.com

website: http://www.klinedinst.com

image00126.gif

[From Rupert Young (2016.12.24 12.10)]

Lloyd,

Here’s some further instructions which may help.

Get the file CSGnet_Eudora.zip

from

  Just unzip it, run Eudora.exe, click ok to .ini message, click no

to default message, click cancel to welcome message, then click
magnifying glass icon, then enter search term in right hand box,
click search and it’ll come up with all appropriate messages. This
covers all messages for all years.

···

http://www.pctresources.com/CSGnet/Files/CSGnet_archive/Eudora_installed_with_mailboxes/
**Regards,
Rupert
**

[From Lloyd Klinedinst (2016.12.24. 07:42 CST)]
Thanks much. Will try later today

Lloyd

···

On Dec 24, 2016, at 06:11, Rupert Young rupert@perceptualrobots.com wrote:

Here’s some further instructions which may help.