The Moral Basis of Political Disputes

[From Mike Acree (990309.1230 PST)]

I'm not necessarily sorry to see that the anarchy thread has been laid
to rest in my absence. Tracy's parting message (990226.0800), however,
raises a different, and interesting, issue.

My relative silence in this debate is due to my sense of contrast

between

the nature of this forum and the nature of the topic. As Rick's

recent

post emphasized, this is a *scientific* forum. We gather here to

discuss,

study, model and otherwise probe a feature as to how the world *is*.
Mike's concern, in contrast, is an *ethical* one. The topic of

anarchism

is a discussion around how the world ought to be. It is focused on
choosing appropriate values. Although I share Mike's general ethical
biases, I refrain from attempting to advance them by reliance on PCT
because I agree with a particular philosophical insight which is

usually

phrased so: You cannot derive an 'is' from an 'ought'. With this in

mind

it is clear to me that PCT cannot imply a particular social vision.

It

certainly is more compatible with some visions than others, and in

that

manner it may be directly applied in the advancement of social theory.

But

it cannot "establish" an ethical position.

I have seen the argument of Chapter 17 as pragmatic more than (or rather
than) moral. This approach seemed to me to offer the advantage of
making the issue (of appropriate social organization) more empirical,
thus easier to discuss and perhaps to reach agreement on. I had aspired
to maintain the same approach myself, though Tracy's perception of my
thrust as moral indicates that I haven't succeeded very well.

But what is really interesting is having been drawn to the (tentative)
conclusion that the reason why dialogue on this topic has been so
difficult, and has accomplished so little, is that people really are
coming from a moral place, and that aspect must thus be addressed. In
this respect I am also seeking to address a post of Bill's some weeks
ago, I believe, where he expressed some interest in the real issues
dividing people of different political persuasions. He has suggested,
if I recall correctly, that the reason such disputes are so intractable
may be that system concepts are not a high enough level to resolve them.
My thinking thus far is leading me to a different conclusion, namely
that people are controlling for something at a _lower_ level, and that
the system concepts, as Rick has suggested for anarchy, are more of a
side consequence. That still doesn't make resolution of the conflict
easy, but it does point to some possible paths.

Liberals and conservatives in American culture today can be seen as
differing merely in having picked up different aspects of Christian
asceticism--as it were, the material and the spiritual. The sin of the
left is greed; the sin of the right is lust. Both sins have in common
that money and sex are things of which humans control for a rather high
level. People aspiring to either ascetic standard of morality commonly
feel that they need extra help, in the form of external
controls--rewards and punishments. But if you are to suffer such
deprivation, it is intolerable to see others unconstrained; hence the
press for universalizing such proscriptions, through the institution of
the Church or the State, or preferably both. Hence the idea of
legislation making crimes of one or the other of these sins makes sense
to almost everybody, and as a result we have criminalized both. This
analysis would account for the curious indifference of both liberals and
conservatives to the hardships their laws cause others. The typical
response is one we have heard several times on the Net: "_I_'m happy
with taxation (or heterosexual monogamy); if I'm willing to suffer the
deprivation, you should be, too." But I have also heard liberals, in
unguarded moments, complain about taxes, and boast about creatively
arranging their dinner parties or their honeymoon in Bali as a tax
deduction; and for conservatives who have strayed we need look no
farther than Congress. Ascetic codes lead people to feel frustrated and
deprived, therefore commonly entitled and inclined to override others,
and therefore probably more inclined to expect that others will do the
same.

This typology is obviously not exhaustive; there is plenty of room for
people who want to punish both sins. Al and Tipper Gore come famously
to mind, but so do many conservatives. There are also those who,
largely under the influence of Rand, reject both standards of morality.
For them, it might be said, with the same crudeness as the previous
characterizations, the fundamental sin is power. Like Rand, these
libertarians remain fiercely, often obnoxiously, moralistic. (In each
case, of course, it is the exercise of the respective capacity that is
the sin, rather than the feeling itself--making money, making love,
making war.) It is fair to ask whether this view constitutes a third
ascetic standard (one also with some Christian roots), and the answer
seems to me pretty clearly affirmative. The ideal of minimal-government
(as opposed to anarchist) libertarians is a government that would punish
only their sin--coercion (understood in a more specific sense than
Rick's, which seems to equate it with force or violence per se). And it
is not unknown for libertarians to give the impression of being
frustrated dictators. The fondness for military metaphors may be one
indication: years ago Rand had a feature in her newsletter called the
"Intellectual Ammunition Department," and the continuing popularity of
the phrase suggests that few of her followers felt any discomfort with
it.

There is also, especially among the young, a kind of punk nihilism which
cynically rejects all standards. I have some sympathy with their
conclusions, tending myself toward Nietzsche's cynical characterization
of ethics as the invention of the weak for the control of the strong.
But this position is missing for me, even more conspicuously, the same
element as the others: an orientation to the positive connections
between people. Even as things stand, the reason why most people do not
rob or murder each other is not the fear of being caught and punished
(and, conversely, that fear is often ineffective against those who are
so inclined). A sense of respect for others as autonomous beings
survives to some degree--the quality I'm struggling to articulate may be
contained in what Bill has referred to as "grace"--but our systems of
legal and ethical rules go far toward undermining it. Bill has written
in various places of the phenomenon of extrinsic motivation, a kind of
Gresham's law of motivation. An interesting example of how we relax our
own efforts at control as it is taken over for us is the ethics of
research. We responded a few decades ago to some egregious abuses by
creating the ubiquitous bureaucracy of Institutional Review Boards; now,
as a result, people have come to treat research ethics as a matter of
complying with the paperwork. Practices not explicitly covered by the
rules, such as talking about research participants in restaurants, go on
as before, but with perhaps even less sense of awareness and
responsibility. In the general case I'm concerned with, surely the
greatest obstacle to a felt sense of respect for others is simply
childhood. The best most children can hope for is to be treated like
pets--to be owned, controlled, trained, protected, perhaps to be cuddled
when young--but to be consistently regarded with respect, as autonomous
human beings, is rare.

I don't think the political ideas I've advocated depend on the universal
achievement of any such attitude; such an achievement would surely never
be more than partial, anyway (as it already is). But neither is the
vision utopian in the sense of being unworkable in principle; there is
much that could actually be done, at least over the long run, and
different political arrangements vary in the degree to which they
promote that outcome.

To my claim that the basis of political disputes may lie at a lower
level than system concepts--namely, people controlling for a perception
of themselves as moral, by a standard they feel incapable of meeting
unaided, while controlling simultaneously for a sense of justice, which
requires that everyone be subject to the same constraints--it might
reasonably be objected that moral concepts are system concepts, too. To
this I have no important objection; I have merely shifted the system
concept from political or economic to ethical. I'm not especially
pleased with this conclusion, but it does look to me as though focusing
on the political or economic concepts, to the exclusion of the moral,
will miss the fundamental source of the resistance. I intend these
comments, I hasten to add, as a possibly useful observation about
political conflicts, not as an invitation to an ethical debate.

Mike

[From Rick Marken (990311.1010)

Mike Acree (990309.1230 PST)--

I have seen the argument of Chapter 17 as pragmatic more than
(or rather than) moral.

I think the "argument" in Chapter 17 was a set of implications
about human interaction derived from the assumption that people
are hierarchical input control systems.

I had aspired to maintain the same approach myself

I think the difference between Bill's approach and yours is
that Bill goes from model (PCT) to conclusions (social conflict)
while you go from conclusions (anarchy is great) to model (PCT
supports anarchy). I think the problem with your approach is that
it seems to lead to a view of the PCT model that is consistent
with your conclusions rather than with actual data.

coercion (understood in a more specific sense than Rick's,
which seems to equate it with force or violence per se).

Why is this so difficult? My view is that coercion is control
of behavior. Coercion does not _necessarily_ involve any explicit
force or violence; threat of force or violence is usually
sufficient. Slavery is coercion if you _will be_ forced to work
whether you want to or not; taxation is coercion if you _will be_
forced to pay taxes whether you want to or not.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Mike Acree (990312.1110 PST)]

Rick Marken (990311.1010)--

I think the difference between Bill's approach and yours is
that Bill goes from model (PCT) to conclusions (social conflict)
while you go from conclusions (anarchy is great) to model (PCT
supports anarchy). I think the problem with your approach is that
it seems to lead to a view of the PCT model that is consistent
with your conclusions rather than with actual data.

You're controlling some perceptions of me with such high gain that
disturbances never register (hard to do science that way, you know). I
said in a previous post (990217.1102) that I was not an anarchist at the
time I read B:CP (1993). I had the same doubts about it that
practically everybody else does. But this book persuaded me to take the
idea seriously, and I've subsequently become more persuaded of its
viability. It's ironic, of course, that Bill has since moved on from
that view, and I may well still have something to learn on the subject.
But so far, no one has done anything to clue me in to the crucial
arguments other than pointing to Gibbons. I hope to get started soon
reviewing the 10 years or so of CSGNet archives before I joined, to see
what I may have missed there.

coercion (understood in a more specific sense than Rick's,
which seems to equate it with force or violence per se).

Why is this so difficult? . . .
Coercion does not _necessarily_ involve any explicit
force or violence; threat of force or violence is usually
sufficient. Slavery is coercion if you _will be_ forced to work
whether you want to or not; taxation is coercion if you _will be_
forced to pay taxes whether you want to or not.

I confess to having had a lot of difficulty grasping the coherence of
your concept of coercion from your posts of the past year or so; I
qualified my interpretation with a "seems," but may still have
misrepresented you. But with what you say here, I certainly agree.

Mike

[From Rick Marken (990312.1340)]

Mike Acree (990312.1110 PST)]

I said in a previous post (990217.1102) that I was not an
anarchist at the time I read B:CP (1993).

Right; you did not have the _perception_ of yourself as an
anarchist yet. But you seem to have had a reference for perceiving
yourself as an anarchist; there were just disturbances ("the
same doubts about [anarchy] that practically everybody else"
has) that kept you from getting the perception you wanted.
Apparently, B:CP gave you tools (outputs) that allowed you to
bring your perception to your reference for it ("[B:CP] persuaded
me to take the idea seriously, and I've subsequently become more
persuaded of its viability").

I'm pretty sure that if you had not had a reference for perceiving
yourself as an anarchist, B:CP would not have persuaded you of its
viability. I, for example, had no reference for perceiving myself
as an anarchist or anything else. So B:CP persuaded me only of the
fact that people are input control systems.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Mike Acree (990313.1320 PST)]

Rick Marken (990312.1340)--

I said in a previous post (990217.1102) that I was not an
anarchist at the time I read B:CP (1993).

Right; you did not have the _perception_ of yourself as an
anarchist yet. But you seem to have had a reference for perceiving
yourself as an anarchist; there were just disturbances ("the
same doubts about [anarchy] that practically everybody else"
has) that kept you from getting the perception you wanted.
Apparently, B:CP gave you tools (outputs) that allowed you to
bring your perception to your reference for it ("[B:CP] persuaded
me to take the idea seriously, and I've subsequently become more
persuaded of its viability").

I'm pretty sure that if you had not had a reference for perceiving
yourself as an anarchist, B:CP would not have persuaded you of its
viability.

This is a silly dispute if there ever was one (and I'm signing off on it
herewith). Like much of this thread (including my "Happy New Year" post
that started it all in December), it picks up on a peripheral issue and
ignores the content.

You have shifted here, if I'm following you, from insisting that I was
an anarchist before reading B:CP to saying that I must have _wanted_ to
be an anarchist at that time. Believe it or not, I had no particular
stake in the limited-government vs. anarchy dispute, and still don't; it
has almost no material relevance to how I live my life. I don't know
any reason why that claim should constitute any sort of disturbance to
you at all, except that you started out with a strong claim which
outstripped the evidence, and evidently still feel obliged to defend it.

I, for example, had no reference for perceiving myself
as an anarchist or anything else.

The purpose of the original post under this heading was to suggest which
specific self-perceptions you (and practically everybody else with any
political beliefs) were controlling, and to show how these reference
perceptions for the self generated the respective political systems by
implication.

Mike

[From Rick Marken (990313.1655)]

Mike Acree (990313.1320 PST) --

I, for example, had no reference for perceiving myself as an
anarchist or anything else.

OK. I just don't understand why you think PCT supports anarchy.
PCT says that people act to produce the perceptions they want
and to protect those perceptions from disturbance. Anarchy is
a perception of social organization (a "system concept" in HPCT)
that a person could want. If PCT supports _anything_ it's the
prediction that the "anarchy" perception won't occur (without
coercion) unless everyone wants it (highly unlikely). If everyone
_does_ want it, then anarchy will occur without coercion (no one will
have to be forced to accept anarchy). But this means anarchy is no
different than any other system concept perception; if everyone wants
a particular system concept perception -- communism, capitalism,
judaism, humanism, feudalism, etc -- that perception will occur (for
everyone) without coercion. So, if anything, PCT "supports" _any_
system concept that everyone wants.

What am I missing?

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Bruce Gregory (990313.2016 EST)]

Rick Marken (990313.1655)

What am I missing?

I don't know, but for what it's worth, I'm missing it too.

Bruce Gregory

from [ Marc Abrams (990313.0108) ]

[From Bruce Gregory (990313.2016 EST)]

Rick Marken (990313.1655)

What am I missing?

I don't know, but for what it's worth, I'm missing it too.

I think it's probably one of the hardest things to come to grips with if you
believe in PCT. According to the theory there is _no_ such thing as normal,
insane, abhorent behavior, Republican, Communist, Jew, Fundamentalist,
Anarchist, Democrat etc. PCT "supports" all of these because All of them are
only perceptions originating in _each_ of us. In fact we might expect _any_
kind of action from anyone trying to maintain or regain control. What we
ultimately decide to call it or name it is really besides the point of PCT.
The laws, customs, rituals, we partake in all help us maintain control of
perceptions we _want_ to have of the real world. I believe Mike might be
missing this point.

Marc

[From Mike Acree (990315.1545 PST)]

Rick Marken (990313.1655)--

I, for example, had no reference for perceiving myself as an
anarchist or anything else.

OK. I just don't understand why you think PCT supports anarchy.

I was quoting _you_ here, not me. Perhaps I should be less disturbed
that you don't remember most of what I say if you don't recognize your
own words, either; but that doesn't make it any easier to sustain a
meaningful conversation.

PCT says that people act to produce the perceptions they want
and to protect those perceptions from disturbance. Anarchy is
a perception of social organization (a "system concept" in HPCT)
that a person could want. If PCT supports _anything_ it's the
prediction that the "anarchy" perception won't occur (without
coercion) unless everyone wants it (highly unlikely). If everyone
_does_ want it, then anarchy will occur without coercion (no one will
have to be forced to accept anarchy). But this means anarchy is no
different than any other system concept perception; if everyone wants
a particular system concept perception -- communism, capitalism,
judaism, humanism, feudalism, etc -- that perception will occur (for
everyone) without coercion. So, if anything, PCT "supports" _any_
system concept that everyone wants.

What am I missing?

Basically almost everything I've said for the past three months. My
fundamental point throughout has been why I think PCT supports anarchy.
But I haven't ever meant "supports anarchy" is the sense of a prediction
that anarchy will occur. PCT doesn't predict that PCT will be
universally accepted, either. What I have argued is the following:

        1. Government entails law.
        2. Law entails punishment or the threat thereof.
        3. PCT holds that punishment is ineffectual and
counterproductive.
        4. Therefore, PCT holds that government is ineffectual and
counterproductive.
        5. Anarchy, by definition, is a lack of government.
        6. Therefore the presumption of PCT is against government and
in favor of anarchy.

There have been no serious challenges to any of these propositions.
(Tracy has indicated that he rejects either (1) or (2) or both, though
he hasn't spelled out his reasons.) The sorites as posed does not
establish that anarchy works better than government. I've given
theoretical reasons and lots of examples to show why it might, but I
don't think anyone has a conclusive answer on that. But I do think
Propositions 1-5 support the conclusion (6) that, for those who accept
PCT, the burden of proof is on them who assert the superior workability
of a system based on punishment.

Mike

[Martin Taylor 990315 19:33]

[From Mike Acree (990315.1545 PST)]

What I have argued is the following:

       1. Government entails law.
       2. Law entails punishment or the threat thereof.
       3. PCT holds that punishment is ineffectual and
counterproductive.
       4. Therefore, PCT holds that government is ineffectual and
counterproductive.
       5. Anarchy, by definition, is a lack of government.
       6. Therefore the presumption of PCT is against government and
in favor of anarchy.

There have been no serious challenges to any of these propositions.

I've never understood (3). As I understand PCT, if the existing connections
of the output of a control system are ineffective in controlling its
perception, the relevant part of the hierarchy is likely to reorganize
until control works.

On the assumption that "punishment" implies that the punisher ensures that
some controlled perception of the "criminal" goes far from its reference
value, I would have thought that _consistent_ punishment would result in
reorganization that led to unpunished actions being substituted for
the punished actions as a means of controlling the perception whose
control actions resulted in the punishment.

I have a bit of a problem with the logical sequence, too. (1) has to mean
that Government entails _nothing but_ law, and (2) has to mean that law
entails _only_ punishment or the threat thereof, if (4) is to follow.
Neither seems true, to me.

So, if (1) and (2) are incomplete, and (3) is false, the conclusion (6)
cannot follow in logic.

Martin

from [ Marc Abrams (990315.2208) ]

[From Mike Acree (990315.1545 PST)]

Basically almost everything I've said for the past three months. My
fundamental point throughout has been why I think PCT supports anarchy.

I don't think Rick has missed anything. Rick has said and continues to say
that PCT "supports" any number social orders, including anarchy.

But I haven't ever meant "supports anarchy" is the sense of a prediction
that anarchy will occur. PCT doesn't predict that PCT will be
universally accepted, either. What I have argued is the following:

       1. Government entails law.
       2. Law entails punishment or the threat thereof.
       3. PCT holds that punishment is ineffectual and
counterproductive.

Here is where you might be mistaken. As Rick has pointed out, coercion is
not ineffective and not always counterproductive. It is also part of
control. Trying to minimize it doesn't mean it should be totally eliminated.
( take the example of the adult who forcibly moves the chid out of traffic )

       4. Therefore, PCT holds that government is ineffectual and
counterproductive.

Now your logic starts breaking down. Again Rick has pointed out that if I
did not want anarchy, the only way for me accept it would be through some
kind of coercion.

       5. Anarchy, by definition, is a lack of government.

Yes, but lack of government does not eliminate the need for rules or
whatever you want to call them for certain "standards" to be maintained
among groups of people.

       6. Therefore the presumption of PCT is against government and
in favor of anarchy.

PCT is not for or against _anything_. We as individuals decide that. PCT
simply shows why and how potential conflicts might occur both internally
and between people. It's descriptive, not prescriptive.

There have been no serious challenges to any of these propositions.
(Tracy has indicated that he rejects either (1) or (2) or both, though
he hasn't spelled out his reasons.) The sorites as posed does not
establish that anarchy works better than government. I've given
theoretical reasons and lots of examples to show why it might, but I
don't think anyone has a conclusive answer on that. But I do think
Propositions 1-5 support the conclusion (6) that, for those who accept
PCT, the burden of proof is on them who assert the superior workability
of a system based on punishment.

PCT does not reject punishment and rewards. It simply states that you can't
_apply_ them over a population ( rather then person, by person ) and think
everyone will be affected the _same_ way by them.

Marc

[From Rick Marken (990316.0750)]

Mike Acree (990315.1545 PST)

My fundamental point throughout has been why I think PCT supports
anarchy. But I haven't ever meant "supports anarchy" is the sense
of a prediction that anarchy will occur...What I have argued is
the following:

        1. Government entails law.

OK. But so does virtually every organization, from AT&T to Microsoft
to the CSG to the clubs I was in as a kid.

        2. Law entails punishment or the threat thereof.

In most organizations this is largely true. But law could
simply "entail" a description of organizational agreements.
If some people who agree to the laws don't follow those
agreements then they are just seen as uncooperative by the
rest of us who signed up to the agreements; no punishment
involved.

        3. PCT holds that punishment is ineffectual and
counterproductive.

Martin Taylor (990315 19:33) and Marc Abrams (990315.2208) have
explained the problems here. I think what you are thinking of is
Bill's discussion of the fact that, if you take the HPCT model
seriously, you can see that the use of rewards and punishments
to control behavior is probably a major cause of inter (and intra)
personal conflict between people. PCT doesn't show that "punishment
is ineffectual and counterproductive". It shows that the use of
rewards and punishments to control behavior is likely to produce
conflict between controller and controllee. If conflict is not
a problem for you -- or if conflict itself is your goal -- then
PCT shows that attempts to control behavior using rewards and
punishments might be quite effectual and productive for you.

        4. Therefore, PCT holds that government is ineffectual and
counterproductive.

I think PCT shows that _any_ organization based on control of
behavior by rewards and punishments is likely to have a large
number of its members existing in conflict with each other. To
the extent that governments control behavior using rewards and
punishments they are a creator of conflict; the same is true for
any organization that is based on control of behavior by rewards
and punishments: AT&T, Microsoft, the CSG and the clubs I was in
as a kid.

        5. Anarchy, by definition, is a lack of government.
        6. Therefore the presumption of PCT is against government
and in favor of anarchy.

I agree that PCT suggests that, _if_ people want to minimize inter-
and intrapersonal conflict they should find ways to organize
themselves that are not based on controlling each other through
the use of rewards and punishments. To the extent that government
is based on controlling people through the use of rewards and
punishments then PCT does suggest that it would be nice (assuming
everyone wants to eliminate conflict) if this aspect of government
were changed.

But government is certainly not the only organization based on
control of behavior by rewards and punishments. If you really want
to minimize conflict, it's not just government that has to go; it's
every organization that has laws, by-laws, rules, etc and uses
rewards (like payments contingent on work done) and punishments
(like dismissal for breaking the rules) to enforce these rules.

I would suggest that, if your goal is a minimum conflict society,
then what PCT "supports" is the development of new ideas, based
on an understanding of people as hierarchical perceptual control
systems, about how people can organize themselves on some basis
other than control of behavior by rewards and punishments. PCT
doesn't tell you what these ideas are, any more than Newton's
laws tell you how to build a strong bridge. You have to _think_ of
these ideas in the context of an understanding of the model that
explains the phenomenon with which you are dealing -- the behavior
of humans in the case of PCT and the behavior of materials in the
case of Newton's laws.

Ideas like "anarchy" (and "capitalism", "communism", etc) were
developed by people who had no idea how humans work; they didn't
know that people are input control systems. What I would like to
see developed by people who do understand PCT are some ideas
about how people can organize themselves into a minimum conflict,
maximally satisfying society (if such a society what you want to
achieve) that are based on an understanding of people as perceptual
control systems.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[Martin Taylor 990316 15:30]

[From Rick Marken (990316.0750)]

... PCT doesn't show that "punishment
is ineffectual and counterproductive". It shows that the use of
rewards and punishments to control behavior is likely to produce
conflict between controller and controllee.
...
I think PCT shows that _any_ organization based on control of
behavior by rewards and punishments is likely to have a large
number of its members existing in conflict with each other.

I think both of these statements are unlikely to be true in general.

Let's consider a counter-example to the second one before moving to the
more subtle first one.

I postulate an organization interested in influencing driving behaviour.
It has the power to punish people whose driving violates its rules. It
makes a rule that says _everyone_ who drives on its road _must_ drive on
the right, no matter how much they want to drive on the left. They coerce
to the extent of fining or jailing people who actually drive on the left.

Are the people driving under this coercion more or less likely to conflict
with each other in respect of controlling thier perceptions of occupancy
of particular patches of road than are people under an benign organization
that says "we accept your driving on whichever side of the road pleases
you"? I think the answer is "much less likely to conflict." The coercive,
punitive application of the rule _reduces_ conflict, rather than increasing
it. For most drivers, most of the time, the higher-level perceptions
controlled through driving actions can be controlled just as well by
driving on either side of the road. There's no conflict with the
organization's private police (or public police if the organization
is the government) until one tries to drive on the left, and then one
is more likely to conflict with another driver before experiencing any
conflict with the police. Coercion is there, but conflict is not, when
one drives on the right.

Now the first statement: reward and punishment produces conflict between
controller and controllee. They can, but it is not guaranteed that they
do. Remember, failure to control = sustained error -> reorganization.

In a conflict between control systems of roughly equal power, one or
other may actually win, especially when the other is in the throes of
reorganizing. So if the punisher is not perceived by the victim as being
appreciably more powerful, the victim may push back, which is the symptom
of conflict. If the punisher is perceived as both powerful and unyielding,
and (this is important) the victim can find an unpunishable way to achieve
higher-level control, then the victim is likely to do just that, achieving
good control without conflict and even without reorganization. The "victim"
is not then a victim, only a person who uses legal means rather than
illegal to achieve control of a higher-level perception.

The "conflict" problem arises when the victim cannot, with his current
hierarchic organization, control his high-level perceptions within the
legal framework. "Oppressive" is what we call governments that have
such systems of law. In that case, conflict against the legal authority
will be almost inevitable until the victim's reorganization discovers a
"legal" means of control. With a truly oppressive government, such a
discovery may be extremely difficult. And almost any system of law will
be "oppressive" in this sense, sometimes, for some people. The fewer and
the less often this happens, the better the system of laws. That's why
coercion to pay taxes is a good thing--it reduces the number of people
who are unable to control important perceptions, and how often or how
long this inability is resistant to reorganization.

Some systems of law almost ensure that conflict occurs--witness Kosovo
or Palestine. Some don't, most of the time. I suspect that most systems
of law have corners into which people can become backed with no legal
way to control. But on the other hand, most systems of law, most of the
time, do not actually punish most of the citizens. The threat of
punishment is part of the perceived set of possible environmental feedback
functions, and actions that would lead to punishment are usually not
chosen if actions that are rewarded are equally available to achieve
high-level control.

The coercive threat, in a well-designed set of laws, allows or rewards
acts that minimize the likelihood of conflicts among citizens who observe
the laws. Without the coercive threat (the potential for conflict against
the government) people might well choose, all unawares, actions that lead
directly to conflict in the same way that driving every which-way on the
road would do.

What I would like to
see developed by people who do understand PCT are some ideas
about how people can organize themselves into a minimum conflict,
maximally satisfying society (if such a society what you want to
achieve) that are based on an understanding of people as perceptual
control systems.

Yes, but remember that they are not just perceptual control systems. They
are _reorganizable_ _hierarchic_ perceptual control systems. All social
conventions are built from reorganizations of hierarchic perceptual
control systems that have other RHPCSs in their environmental feedback
paths. All social conventions involve some level of punishment (explicit
or implicit) for nonconformity. Some are codified into written law.

PCT does suggest why this should be so--to reduce interpersonal conflict
(which doesn't mean that there are no bad laws, or no laws drafted to
enhance the power of the powerful--that's a whole nother issue, as
I discussed in an earlier contribution to the "anarchy" thread:-) The
bottom line is that the coercive threat behind good law can and usually
does result in a reduction of the level of conflict experienced by most
citizens, even if--or rather, because--they act differently than they
would in the absence of the coercive law.

Martin

[From Bruce Gregory (990316.1740 EST)]

Martin Taylor 990316 15:30

PCT does suggest why this should be so--to reduce
interpersonal conflict
(which doesn't mean that there are no bad laws, or no laws drafted to
enhance the power of the powerful--that's a whole nother issue, as
I discussed in an earlier contribution to the "anarchy" thread:-) The
bottom line is that the coercive threat behind good law can
and usually
does result in a reduction of the level of conflict
experienced by most
citizens, even if--or rather, because--they act differently than they
would in the absence of the coercive law.

Nice post Martin. It clarifies several issues that remained murky in the
somewhat heated exchange on coercion several months ago.

Bruce Gregory

[From Rick Marken (990316.1520)]

Me:

... PCT doesn't show that "punishment is ineffectual and
counterproductive". It shows that the use of rewards and
punishments to control behavior is likely to produce conflict
between controller and controllee.
...
I think PCT shows that _any_ organization based on control of
behavior by rewards and punishments is likely to have a large
number of its members existing in conflict with each other.

Martin Taylor 990316 15:30]

I think both of these statements are unlikely to be true in
general.

I agree. If PCT is correct they are _always_ true;-)

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[Martin Taylor 990316 18:43]

[From Rick Marken (990316.1520)]

Me:

... PCT doesn't show that "punishment is ineffectual and
counterproductive". It shows that the use of rewards and
punishments to control behavior is likely to produce conflict
between controller and controllee.
...
I think PCT shows that _any_ organization based on control of
behavior by rewards and punishments is likely to have a large
number of its members existing in conflict with each other.

Martin Taylor 990316 15:30]

I think both of these statements are unlikely to be true in
general.

I agree. If PCT is correct they are _always_ true;-)

I presented evidence that they are not. Can you either refute that
evidence (which was totally within the classical bounds of PCT), or
produce an equivalent analysis that shows how they might be always true?
I used PCT to show that they are not always true, so either my analysis
is flawed or your claim is irresponsible (even when winked).

Either direct refutation of my analysis or irrefutable demonstration
that the statements are true would be better than a winked assertion
that they are true. Appeal to authority was OK when the Church insisted
that Aristotle was error free, but we've moved a bit beyond that, I hope.

It's a kind of serious issue, I think. Make the argument _using_ PCT,
and then we can see where the positions differ, and in what way PCT has
been misused or misunderstood.

Martin

from [ Marc Abrams (990316.2157) ]

[Martin Taylor 990316 18:43]

[From Rick Marken (990316.1520)]

Gentlemen, I think your both "right". Actually "accurate" might be a better
word. It started with this, which was Martin replying to Rick,

Rick said:

I think PCT shows that _any_ organization based on control of
behavior by rewards and punishments is likely to have a large
number of its members existing in conflict with each other.

Martin 's reply:
I think both of these statements are unlikely to be true in general.

Martin, if Rick changed the wording form "likely to have a "large" number
..."
to just "likely, or might have any number of ..." would that change your
view?

Rick, If Martin changed the wording to read instead of "unlikely to ... " to
"there are or can be any number of instances where it is not true".

Would that change the argument for either one of you?

Just curious,

Marc

···

Me:

... PCT doesn't show that "punishment is ineffectual and
counterproductive". It shows that the use of rewards and
punishments to control behavior is likely to produce conflict
between controller and controllee.
...
I think PCT shows that _any_ organization based on control of
behavior by rewards and punishments is likely to have a large
number of its members existing in conflict with each other.

Martin Taylor 990316 15:30]

I think both of these statements are unlikely to be true in
general.

I agree. If PCT is correct they are _always_ true;-)

I presented evidence that they are not. Can you either refute that
evidence (which was totally within the classical bounds of PCT), or
produce an equivalent analysis that shows how they might be always true?
I used PCT to show that they are not always true, so either my analysis
is flawed or your claim is irresponsible (even when winked).

Either direct refutation of my analysis or irrefutable demonstration
that the statements are true would be better than a winked assertion
that they are true. Appeal to authority was OK when the Church insisted
that Aristotle was error free, but we've moved a bit beyond that, I hope.

It's a kind of serious issue, I think. Make the argument _using_ PCT,
and then we can see where the positions differ, and in what way PCT has
been misused or misunderstood.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (990316.2120)]

Me:

... PCT doesn't show that "punishment is ineffectual and
counterproductive". It shows that the use of rewards and
punishments to control behavior is likely to produce conflict
between controller and controllee.
...
I think PCT shows that _any_ organization based on control of
behavior by rewards and punishments is likely to have a large
number of its members existing in conflict with each other.

Martin Taylor (990316 15:30) --

I think both of these statements are unlikely to be true in
general.

Me:

I agree. If PCT is correct they are _always_ true;-)

Martin Taylor (990316 18:43) --

I presented evidence that they are not.

I would say that you made up some stories; I like my stories
better than yours;-)

Marc Abrams (990316.2157) --

Rick, If Martin changed the wording to read instead of "unlikely
to ... " to "there are or can be any number of instances where
it is not true".

Would that change the argument for either one of you?

Not really. My point is the same as the point Bill makes in
Chapter 17 of B:CP and in Chapter 8 of MSB. My point is _not_
that the appropriate use of rewards and punishments to control
behavior brings order to society (as Martin Taylor (990316 15:30)
argues). My point is that "If we are to trust the theory in this
book [PCT]...we must conclude...[that] the more faithfully we
adhere to the system of incentives [offering rewards for "good"
behavior] and the rule of law [punishments for "bad" behavior],
the closer the country must approach a state of open revolt"
(BCP, p. 270). That doesn't mean that we have to abandon the
notion of having a government, or that we should throw out all
rules or that we should never say "nice work" when someone does
a good job. It means what it says: _faithfully_ (diligently,
inflexibly) adhering to (having a reference for) the idea
(perception) that one _must_ control people (using rewards and
punishments) is bound to lead to conflict.

I think our society works as well as it does because most people
in most situations, _don't_ adhere faithfully to the idea that
they _must_ control other people with rewards and punishments,
even if they verbally say that they _are_ committed to this idea.
This is why behavior modification works despite what the textbooks
say about how to do therapy; this is why everybody loves my mother
despite what she says about how to treat other people. Fortunately,
people don't really treat others the way they _say_ others should
be treated.

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[Martin Taylor 990317 00:10]

From [ Marc Abrams (990316.2157) ]

[Martin Taylor 990316 18:43]

[From Rick Marken (990316.1520)]

Rick said:

I think PCT shows that _any_ organization based on control of
behavior by rewards and punishments is likely to have a large
number of its members existing in conflict with each other.

Martin 's reply:
I think both of these statements are unlikely to be true in general.

Martin, if Rick changed the wording form "likely to have a "large" number
..."
to just "likely, or might have any number of ..." would that change your
view?

Would that change the argument for either one of you?

Let's be more precise.

Any place where there are a large number of people, there are likely to
be many conflicts among them. So, technically, Rick's statement is true.
No matter what the organization is based on, it "is likely to have a large
number of its members existing in conflict with each other." But some
kinds of organisation will have fewer inter-member conflicts than will
others.

But that technical quibble isn't what I think Rick was implying. I think
he was implying that _in itself_ the existence of a system of rewards and
punishments would be likely to increase the amount of conflict among the
members of the organisation. That implication was what I disputed.
I do not think changing Rick's "likely to have a large number" to a
softer version would alter the implication that any system of reward
and punishment is likely to increase the degree of conflict in the
organisation (read, society).

My claim, for which I gave a PCT analysis (or at least a sketch of
one), is that there can be good systems of rewards and punishments
as well as bad ones, where "good" means "tending to reduce the likelihood
of conflicts among the members of the organisation." I selected as a
prototypical example the punishment for driving on the left (in right-side
driving countries), which reduces the likelihood of conflicts among
drivers.

A less solid contention is that in most Western countries, the system of
laws is largely of this "good" kind, though in probably all countries
some laws are "bad" in this same sense.

I don't know whether Rick will agree with this restatement.

Martin

[Martin Taylor 990317 7:47]

[From Rick Marken (990316.2120)]

Funny how much we can agree while disagreeing.

Rick, If Martin changed the wording to read instead of "unlikely
to ... " to "there are or can be any number of instances where
it is not true".

Would that change the argument for either one of you?

Not really. My point is the same as the point Bill makes in
Chapter 17 of B:CP and in Chapter 8 of MSB. My point is _not_
that the appropriate use of rewards and punishments to control
behavior brings order to society (as Martin Taylor (990316 15:30)
argues)....

What you say I argue is not what I argue. I argue that it maximises the
ability of individuals in the society to control without conflicting
with other members of society. Conflict with others reduces the ability
to control one's own perception. So do all rules. The question I addressed
is whether some sets of rules produce an overall increase in the ability
of individuals to control their own perceptions. In one popular aphorism:
"Liberty is not Licence". You get more Liberty if you forego Licence and
accept some rules.

That's clearly untrue if it is only you that foregoes Licence while
everybody else ignores the rules. Your Liberty is enhanced when you AND
everyone else follows the rules. It would not help you if you drove on
the right, like a good little boy, while everyone else chose arbitrarily
which side of the road to drive on. You would be restricting your ability
to control the perception "driving where you want"without affect your
ability to control "getting to your destination." If, on the other hand,
the threat of punishment persuades everyone else to drive on the right,
and I also accept that reduction in my ability to control "where I want
to drive" I am much better able to control "getting to my destination."

The same applies to taxes. If I make a voluntary contribution to a charity,
I am poorer and therefore less able to control a variety of perceptions.
If, on the other hand, I and everyone else pays taxes that the government
uses to enhance the wealth of the poor, the net effect is that I become
richer and am better able to control more perceptions. The coercion
implicit in the notion of taxes probably is required, because anyone
can become richer when other people pay their taxes if one does not pay
one's own. The point is that there are many ways in which one's overall
ability to control is enhanced if, along with everyone else, one accepts
some small reductions in the ability to control some perceptions.

That's a bit long for what was supposed to be a one-liner to say that I
am not trying to argue _at all_ what Rick says I am trying to argue.
To proceed...

... My point is that "If we are to trust the theory in this
book [PCT]...we must conclude...[that] the more faithfully we
adhere to the system of incentives [offering rewards for "good"
behavior] and the rule of law [punishments for "bad" behavior],
the closer the country must approach a state of open revolt"
(BCP, p. 270)....

What I argue is that this is both right and wrong. It's ambiguous is an
way Rick doesn't seem to recognize. To me it seems to be right (meaning
that it follows from standard PCT) if the emphasis is on "the more
faithfully we adhere." It is wrong if the emphasis is on "system of
incentives and the rule of law."

I think what Rick says in the following quote agrees with this--at least
I largely agree with Rick, when, taking the first emphasis, he says

... It means what it says: _faithfully_ (diligently,
inflexibly) adhering to (having a reference for) the idea
(perception) that one _must_ control people (using rewards and
punishments) is bound to lead to conflict.

This is correct, to me, in one reading. But it, too, is ambiguous, because
it mixes up three ideas: (1) that each rule must be followed faithfully
and failure to follow it will result in punishment, (2) that all actions
must be covered by rules that say whether they are to be rewarded or
punished, and (3) that individuals within the society are separately
responsible for the construction and enforcement of the rules.

If all these three statements are accepted, then PCT says that there
will be conflict. Indeed there will, especially between the _individual_
rule enforcers and the one on whom a particular rule is being enforced
at any moment.

Even idea (2) by itself is enough to lead to much conflict, as I argued
in the message to which Rick objected. I also analysed why (3) leads
to more conflict than when the power that supports the rule is large
compared to the power of an anarchic individual.

Idea (1) is the key, though, because it is the primary reason why people
agree with Charles Dickens that "the law is an ass." A rule is applied
in a situation that was not imagined by the drafters of the rule, and
in which it punishes or rewards someone that "should" not be rewarded
("should" meaning the PCT conflict-reducing "should"). In practice, most
judges and most policemen don't adhere to rule (1), applying the law
usually in the way it was originally envisioned. And it is this failure
to emphasise "faithfully" that allows systems of laws to work well
in enhancing the control ability of the members of a society.

I think our society works as well as it does because most people
in most situations, _don't_ adhere faithfully to the idea that
they _must_ control other people with rewards and punishments,

Yes, indeed. I also said this, or the equivalent, in the message to
which Rick objected.

even if they verbally say that they _are_ committed to this idea.

I know very few people who say this. Most people that I know say that
there should be as few punishable acts as is compatible with their own
safety and well-being. People do disagree on what acts this covers. But
I know very few who even _want_ to control very many of the actions of
any other person, let alone assert that they are committed to the idea
that they _must_ do so, whether they want to or not.

What most people may believe, is that the threat of punishment or the
promise of reward may influence how someone acts, and the more severe
the punishment, the more the act is discouraged. PCT says that this is
often, but not always, true. It is true when either a punishable or an
unpunishable act both would enable control of a higher-level perception,
and the individual's state or organization allows both to be used
without inducing other error in the individual through internal conflict.

It is true also in a "learning" sense, in that punishment by definition
implies the existence of uncorrectable error somewhere in the hierarchy,
and that tends to lead to reorganization of the hierarchy until the
error goes away.

This is why behavior modification works despite what the textbooks
say about how to do therapy;

I speculate that behaviour modification (or any other therapy) works
because it helps the patient to find mechanisms for control that random
reorganization had not found. The therapist manages to get the patient
to act in a certain way in order to control for getting some reward or
avoiding some punishment, and the patient discovers that this action
enables control of something that had been in persistent error.

(The same applies to "Gold Stars" in the classroom; but neither the patient
nor the student is guaranteed to find whatever it is that the therapist
or the teacher is guiding them toward--you can lead a horse to water...).

The bottom line here is that we seem to agree on much of this, but have
different takes on what Bill's quote means. Indeed, I remember not too
many weeks ago that Bill seemed to dissociate himself from the more
radical meaning that you are asserting. Maybe I'm wrong in that, but
I don't think I'm wrong about the PCT analysis of the effect of law
and law enforcement. Prove me wrong on that, analytically, and I'll
change my mind. Assert dognmatically that you are right, and I will
withdraw from the discussion without changing my mind.

Martin