therapy

CSGnet Archive CSG1999
21

[From Bruce Gregory (990917.0945 EDT)]

Bill Powers (990916.1942 MDT)

If it should be true that the Method of Levels does redirect
reorganization
to levels where it can be effective, then the MOL would be the most
efficient therapy possible. It would be effective not only because it
addresses the underlying problem directly, but because it shields the
client from the therapist's compulsion to meddle and show how
clever he or
she is. If we can't prevent all therapists from displaying
their egos, we
can at least design a method that gives the egos the least possible
influence. The MOL is designed that way. This is why it strikes some
therapists, at first, as "not doing anything."

It seems to me that exactly the same argument could be used against
coaching of any sort. Since you do not make this argument with respect
to coaching physical skills, I infer that you feel the way you do about
psychotherapy for some reason I am not privy to. Fair enough.

Bruce Gregory

22

[From
[From Bruce Gregory (990817.1020 EDT)]

Rick Marken (990917.0710)]

Tim Carey (990917.1245) --

> The "change the goal or change the environment" scenario I was
> referring to when the problem of control was insuperable
> disturbances. MOL is my method of choice when the problem
> of control is conflict.

Bruce Gregory (9909.0650 EDT) --

> I take you are a proponent of Bill's "stop wanting that"
> solution to problems that do not involve conflicts.

I think "stop wanting that" is the solution of choice
_only_ when there is internal conflict.

So you differ with Tim. Tim believes that "stop wanting that" is
appropriate when the problem is insuperable disturbances, not conflict.

Internal conflict
is caused by incompatible wants; the only way to solve
such conflicts is to stop wanting the perception on one
side or the other of the conflict.

I would say that the only way to stop such conflicts is to find a
solution that minimizes intrinsic error.

> Is "stop wanting to live" your advice to the individual
> stricken with cancer?

Cancer is not an internal conflict, is it?

My question was directed to Tim, who differs with you on this question.

Bruce Gregory

23

[From Bruce Gregory (990917.1231 EDT)]

Bruce Nevin (990917.1204 EDT)

I don't understand your parallel between psychotherapy using
the MOL and
coaching of physical skills, such as tennis or piano playing.
Could you
explain?

Bill says that one of the virtues of MOL is that it prevents therapists
from "meddling" and giving advice. Apparently Bill does not feel that
coaches meddle or that their advice is of no value. At least has never
made similar comments about coaching. Therefore he does not see
therapists as coaches. Or at least they are not competent coaches. I
infer from this, that he has had some experience that leads him to
conclude that psychological coaching is not likely to occur. This is not
my experience. I think psychological coaching is possible. I suspect
psychological coaches are as effective as most coaches, but I have no
data to support this view.

Bruce Gregory

24

[From Bruce Gregory (990920.1127 EDT)]

Rick Marken (990917.1700)]

I meant "blaming" in the sense of "placing responsibility",
not in the sense of "finding fault". But I know that "blame"
has both these implications so I really wouldn't want to say
that I "blame" the victim of internal conflict. All I meant
to say is that, when a person has a problem due to internal
conflict, the person him/herself is the only one responsible
for that problem and is the only one who can solve the
problem -- by changing the goals that are creating the conflict.

"Doctor Marken, it hurts when I do this..."

"Well, don't do that any more."

Bruce Gregory

25

[From Bruce Gregory (990921.2104 EDT)]

Bill Powers (990919.1428 MDT)

Perhaps the phrase "stop wanting that" would seem more reasonable
if stated
differently: find a higher-level position from which you can change your
present reference signal into one more appropriate to the situation.

This seems to me to be an important point. Sometimes you cannot directly set
a reference level, but you can synthesize a higher order perception, the
control of which sets the reference level.

Bruce Gregory

26

[From Bruce Gregory (990922.1103 EDT)]

Tim Carey (990916.1515)

Thanks to you too, Phil. By the way, I've been reading the
book by Robyn
Dawes you recommended: House of Cards. It's fabulous. Thanks
for mentioning
it.

I also have been reading this book. It is indeed extraordinary. Highly
recommended.

Bruce Gregory

27

[From Bruce Gregory (990922.1126 EDT)]

Bill Powers (990919.1443 MDT)

What psychotherapists do does not seem to me very similar to
coaching. And
anyway, the coaching I have experienced hasn't seemed
helpful. "Put your
back into it" and "Let's see a little pepper out there" have
not made me
into a better athelete (or anyone else, I would guess).

Good point.

I assume there are good natural coaches as well as good natural
psychotherapists. However, giving advice in psychotherapy
involves a far
greater requirement for understanding the other person than
coaching of
physical skills does, and I'm not sure anyone, natural or
cultured, has
that degree of understanding.

And another.

I strongly suspect that good

therapists and
coaches keep their egos out of it as much as possible, and
give very little
advice (though good coaching might entail giving certain
kinds of advice) .

Fair enough.

It's risky to infer what I would say about something I
haven't talked about
from something I have talked about.

Point taken.

There are lots of other reasons, but interest in them must be
ebbing pretty
low by now.

I'm reading _House of Cards_, so I could make them for you!

Bruce Gregory

28

[From Bruce Gregory (990922.1319 EDT)]

Rick Marken (990922.0910)

When you say "synthesize a higher order perception" I think
you are describing a process of intentionally forming a
new perception from more elementary perceptions; for example,
forming the perception of a figure from a set of randomly
placed dots. So "synthesize a higher order perception"
means something quite different to me than "find a higher-
level position".

Yes, to me also. I think the difference might be phrased in the
following way. Does the MOL uncover existing perceptions or does it
create new perceptions? Another way to put it might be, is "insight" the
name we give to creating (and being aware of) a new (higher level?)
perception? Let's imagine that I perceive someone to be (1) extremely
knowledgeable, and (2) often abrasive. Let's say that when I perceive
the person to be abrasive I respond in kind, and this clashes with my
belief that being abrasive is unproductive. Simply telling me not to
want the person to be unabrasive is unlikely to change anything for me.
However, if I perceive the other person's abrasiveness to be a form of
defensiveness, I may react quite differently to it. When I come to the
realization that what I have been calling abrasiveness could also be
called defensiveness I am aware of a new perception--the perception that
the person is defensive. I may then no longer feel the need to respond
abrasively (which I may now also see as a sign of my own defensiveness).
This new perception accomplishes what I could not have accomplished
without it--it allows me to stop attempting to control for seeing the
other as "unabrasive".

I'm sorry to be so prolix. I'm obviously just starting to think about
the process. It seems to me that we don't know enough about MOL and
therapy in general to rule this possibility out.

Bruce Gregory

29

[From Bruce Gregory (990922.1500 EDT)]

Bill Powers (990922.1214 MDT)

Bruce Gregory (990921.2104 EDT)--

>This seems to me to be an important point. Sometimes you
cannot directly set
>a reference level, but you can synthesize a higher order
perception, the
>control of which sets the reference level.

I shouldn't have stated that so "volitionally". You can try
out reference
signals voluntarily, but you do it either on the basis of
your own existing
higher-level systems, or through reorganization.

I don't understand what you mean by "voluntarily".

In the first
case, you're
just doing what you do anyway, and in the second case, you
can't predict
what reorganization is going to do. So talking about carrying
out these
operations as if you could just sit down and rationally
create some new
organization (perceptual or otherwise) is probably a mistake, a story.

Yes, it would be a lot easier if we could do it volitionally. When you
"see" a connection it doesn't seem to be something you created. It is
perhaps the result of reorganization. Perhaps when reorganization "goes
wrong" as it must much of the time we aren't aware of the connection.
I'm wondering if puns aren't generated in a similar way. Of the many
possibilities that aren't "funny" we pick up on the ones that are. (Puns
and their Relation to Reorganization, sounds like a book title. I think
Freud might have gotten there first, but what did he know about PCT...)

Bruce Gregory

30

[From Bruce Gregory (990922.1524 EDT)]

Bruce Abbott (990922.1400 EST)

Anyone know who Robyn Dawes is? (I do.)

According to the dust jacket he is "University Professor in the
Department of Social and Decision Sciences at Carnegie-Mellon
University, a widely recognized researcher on psychological evaluation
and decision making and the author of _Rational Choice in an Uncertain
World_ 1990 winner of the APA William James Award."

Bruce Gregory

31

[From Bruce Gregory (990923.1008)]

Rick Marken (990922.1305)

I believe that what is actually going on when people solve
conflicts by "perceiving things in a new way" is that they
are "controlling a different perceptual variable". I think
your example shows that people can solve conflicts without
"going up a level". If people can be persuaded to try
"looking at things differently" they may end up replacing
conflicting with non-conflicting goals when they start
controlling a different perceptual variable.

So suggestions about how a person could "look at things
differently" might be a good tool to keep in the
therapist's toolkit. But I think the MOL, to the extent
that it can be used, can get the patient to see his/her
conflict and, thus, find a solution to that conflict much
more efficiently.

Thanks for your clear and detailed analysis. I think you are right on
target.

Bruce Gregory

32

It might be helpful to Tim if you could specify (perhaps off-net) where in
his posts you perceived disrespect for you or for your elevated status. It
might not be obvious to him. But I'm sure he will speak for himself.
<stereotype alert> He's from in-your-face Australia. <end stereotype alert>

  Be well,

  Bruce Nevin

............................

"Academia--a last outpost of feudalism."

"Academic politics are so vicious because the stakes are so small."

···

At 08:09 AM 09/15/1999 -0400, David Goldstein wrote:

Also Tim, on a serious note, I am a few years past my Ph.D.
(26 years), which I understand you will be receiving in a few years,
and you should show more respect to your elders.

33

[From Bruce Nevin (990915-990916.1118 EDT)]

Tim Carey (990916.0535 Australian time)--

the situation where you _want_ to be able to do something but are
_unable_ to do it, sounds pretty much like internal conflict to me.

Similar, but not necessarily the same. If you are color blind but want to
distinguish red and green like other folks, you can control the desire to
see the colors but we don't know of any way you can control the presence or
absence of the required equipment to see them.

In an internal conflict, you control both. This is more like an
interpersonal conflict where the other side is an unintended side effect
against which resistance is futile or which you have no control systems at
all to resist (as with color blindness or perhaps as with an inability to
recognise faces).

In my experience, people often misinterpret internal conflict either as a
disability

where you _want_ to be able to do something but are _unable_ to do it

or as an interpersonal conflict where someone else is to blame.

<Speculation alert> I wonder if it is possible to reduce the emotional and
physiological side effects of persistent error by successfully controlling
some other variable? Whence many an interpersonal conflict that has no
obvious relation to the original cause of error (conflict of either kind,
or disability). When you just can't stand feeling bad, what do you do to
feel better? This would give a unified explanation for a range of phenomena
from grumpiness through bullying and worse, though of course the prevalent
social explanations might be simpler. <End speculation alert>

Some disabilities are remediable, some are not. Control systems and even a
new level of control can be developed. So far they don't have eyeglasses
for color blindness. Or for inability to recognize faces. But they probably
have "brain exercises" for the latter.

  Bruce Nevin

···

At 05:59 AM 09/16/1999 +1000, Tim Carey wrote:

34

[From Bruce Nevin (990916.1632 EDT)]

Bill Powers (990816.1021 MDT)--

The problem with "brain exercises" is that they do nothing to enable a
person to do them. They simply _require_ that a person do something that is
hard to do, over and over, in the hope that it will become easier to do. If
it doesn't become easier to do, there is no further help available. "Try
harder" is the usual advice.

Sounds like trying to get them to grow a new control capacity. How would
you do it better? For example, suppose I wanted to learn to play the piano.
What could I do except try to do something that is hard to do, over and
over, in the hope that it will become easier to do? Piano teachers seem to
think there's no further help available. "Keep practicing" is the usual
advice. Is there something that PCT can add? (Or subtract ...)

Bill Powers (990816.1004 MDT) --

···

At 10:24 AM 09/16/1999 -0600, Bill Powers wrote:

At 10:15 AM 09/16/1999 -0600, Bill Powers wrote:

I didn't start pushing [MOL] with any confidence until the late '90s.
That's "1990's" for anyone with a Y2K bug.

We didn't think you were _that_ old, Bill! (But we respect you anyway.)

  Bruce Nevin

35

[From Bruce Nevin (990916.1818 EDT)]

Tim Carey (990917.0530) --

I said

you can control the desire to see the colors but ...

Tim said

I don't know what you mean here Bruce. I don't understand how you can
control a "desire" without actually being able to do it.

I am well and truly counter-nitted. How's this: "you can control seeing the
colors red vs. green (controlling usuccessfully because you actually see
the indistinguishable colors that a color blind person sees) but we don't
know of any way you can control the presence or absence of the required
equipment to see them."

In an internal conflict, you control both.

My understanding of an internal conflict is that it's an _inability_ to
control either. That's the problem with conflict.

It's an inability to control either *successfully*. The result of
controlling both is lack of success at controlling either. If you stop
controlling either or both, there is no more conflict.

Think of Bill's example of two people stretching the rubber bands to the
breaking point. The person holding one end of the rubber band is
controlling "knot over mark" (unsuccessfully) and at the same time is
controlling "no pain to him or me from a breaking rubber band". If the
person stops controlling either one, then the internal conflict ends. If he
stops controlling "knot over mark" the interpersonal conflict ends; if he
stops controlling "no pain from a breaking rubber band" the interpersonal
conflict continues (assuming no change in the other person).

<Speculation alert> I wonder if it is possible to reduce the emotional and
physiological side effects of persistent error by successfully controlling
some other variable?

This sounds to me like something that occurs in MOL through reorganisation.

What happens during the distraction? Afterwards, you come back to it and a
different approach becomes evident -- a different configuration, category,
sequence, program, whatever, whereas before you perceived it only one way,
a way that didn't work. The emotional and physiological accompaniment to
frustrated control maybe restricts our ability to perceive a situation in
alternative ways? I'm not sure this involves reorganization, but it might be.

  Bruce Nevin

36

[From Bruce Nevin (990917.1204 EDT)]

Bruce Gregory (990917.0945 EDT)]

···

At 09:47 AM 09/17/1999 -0400, Bruce Gregory wrote:

Bill Powers (990916.1942 MDT)

If we can't prevent all therapists from displaying
their egos, we
can at least design a method that gives the egos the least possible
influence.

It seems to me that exactly the same argument could be used against
coaching of any sort. Since you do not make this argument with respect
to coaching physical skills, I infer that you feel the way you do about
psychotherapy for some reason I am not privy to. Fair enough.

I don't understand your parallel between psychotherapy using the MOL and
coaching of physical skills, such as tennis or piano playing. Could you
explain?

  Bruce Nevin

37

Re.: Mary Powers (990913)

I think that a therapist has to have many tools in his therapy box. I
consider the MOL to be one of my tools.

My patients have accepted it as a special exercise which we use for
particular purposes. For example, in the case of the man who provided the
clinical example, I asked him to apply the MOL to the topic: What I want in
a relationship. This lead him to discover some assumptions which were hidden
to him at first.

What do you think are some fundamental questions about the MOL which
research should target?

···

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Subject: Re: therapy
Date: 9/14/99

38

Example 1 of a non-MOL problem: I saw a 8-year-old girl today for the second
time. We went over the results of some special testing which I did on her
the last time. The test was a QEEG (how does her EEG compare to other
children her age in four properties?), IVA (how well can she pay attention
and concentrate?) and Visigraph (how well does her eyes move during silent
reading of a paragraph?). The treatment recommendations were: (a)
Ball-Stick-Bird reading program which will be carried out at home by mom
after I show her how, (b) Neurofeedback (brain exercises) program to help
normalize her QEEG and improve her brain functioning. The MOL would not help
in this case.

Example 2: A 34-year-old woman with DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder).
This woman has had several alters which were suicidal. The MOL did not have
any obvious applicability in reducing the risk of self-harm. Making friends
with an alter, teaching the alter how to stop flashbacks of painful
memories, letting the alter tell her/his story of trauma, helping the alter
realize the context--I am part of a whole, etc. are some of the things which
were helpful.

Example 3: A couple who is having marriage problems in their first year of
marriage. There are issues of sexual intimacy, medical problems,
disappointed expectations, poor problem solving. The MOL may play a role
somewhere but does not obviously relate to all the issues.

Psychoanalytical Therapy also emphasized the central importance of conflict
and insight. In modern times, other therapy approaches came to replace this
sort of approach because it did not seem to work for a particular kind of
problem, or population.

I think that the MOL has a role to play in resolving internal conflict. This
is great. What if the problem is in the input function? What if the problem
is in the output function? What if the problem is in the comparator function
but is not related to a conflict?

···

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Subject: Re: therapy
Date: 9/14/99

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Marken <rmarken@EARTHLINK.NET>
To: CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU <CSGNET@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: therapy

[From Rick Marken (990914.1810)]

David M. Goldstein --

I think that a therapist has to have many tools in his therapy box. I
consider the MOL to be one of my tools.

Tim Carey (990915.0755)--

I think that is a statement therapists make when they don't
base their practices on a coherent, scientific theory about
how living things are organised.

Nicely put.

Best

Rick
--

Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

39

Re.: Tim Carey (990915.1715)

Tim: I can't see how any of these would necessarily effect a person's
capacity to control.

David: Have you ever worked with a person who had an unrealistic perception
of some aspect of him-/herself? For example, the person wanted to be a
Rock-n-Roll musician but didn't have the talent for it.

Or, a person has difficulties with facial recognition and often misperceives
who he/she was talking to and the more subtle social cues involved in
interpersonal interactions.

Tim: Look David, I'm sincerely not trying to criticise the work you do or
the beliefs you have at all. From what you've described you're a very
competent psychotherapist that has a lot of success. I'm not denying that at
all. I do think it's fair though, when you present your ideas on
psychotherapy to people who perhaps are not in the field, for someone else
to present an alternative view.

David: Tim, I have no problem with an alternative view. It is too bad that
people have to take such an all or nothing attitude about the MOL. My view
is that it is not all, and it is not nothing.

I think that the PCT perspective allows for other possibilities for failure
to control than conflict. See my chapter in the Robertson and Powers edited
textbook. See the essay on PCT Psychotherapy on Rick Marken's website. I
agree that Bill Power's has emphasized this reason for failure to control as
being of special theoretical significance.

I am a fan of PCT and MOL. Really, I swear!

Also Tim, on a serious note, I am a few years past my Ph.D. (26 years),
which I understand you will be receiving in a few years, and you should show
more respect to your elders.

···

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Subject: Re: therapy
Date: 9/15/99

40

Tim, since you don't really know me, you didn't really detect what was my
background thought. What I really wanted to say is that you display a very
arrogant, know-it-all attitude for someone who is only a graduate student.
It is very unbecoming and annoying. I guess your not as good at MOL as you
think you are.

Cheers,
David

···

From: David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Subject: Re.: therapy
Date: 9/15/99