This topic needs a title

[Frfom Bill POwers (2006.12.20.1928 MST)]

Just realized that I missed something obvious.

In the permutation of the see-saw equation we solved for the position of the fulcrumds and got

      d1*L
x = -------
     d1 + d2

Then we changed d2 by an amount e, and found the new implied value of x must have been

        d1*L
x = -----------
     d1 + d2 + e

Then we solve that for d2 and get

         (L-x)
d2 = d1*----- - e
           x

and I said "compare this to the equation we started with:"

         (L-x)
d2 = d1*-----
           x

What I missed was this. Since moving one end by an amount e does not actually change the fulcrum position x, we can equate the two expressions for x: But suspecting some hanky-panky, let us designate the distance that side 1 moves as d1a for one equation and d1b for the other:

   d1a*L d1b*L
-------- = -------
d1a+d2+e d1b+d2

after some tedious algbra which I hope I did right, we get

         d2*d1a
d1b = ---------
         d2+e

Here's what the foregoing boils down to, in other words:

If we change d2 in the equation

      d1*L
x = -------
     d1 + d2

the result is not that x changes, but that d1 changes while x remains the same.

Best,

Bill P.

Repeating context from Bruce Nevin 2018-12-03_14:36:33 UTC in a parallel thread: interviews with researchers in this podcast suggest that language has a more fundamental and essential role in cognition than I had realized, stitching together what are disparate ‘islands’ of perception in animals, small children, and (a startling story!) in adults who lack language.Â

I followed up the story in the podcast about the role of 8 to 10 year olds in creating a new language de novo.

The story: In 1977, a special education center for congenitally deaf children was established in Managua, Nicaragua. Prior to that, deaf children were with their separated families, and each developed idiosyncratic ‘home signs’ to communicate basic needs. From 50 in 1977, the school population had grown to 100 in 1979, the year of the Sandinista revolution. In 1980, the Democratic Socialist government opened a vocational school for deaf adolescents, and the population in the two school had increased to over 400. Like Alexander Graham Bell, they were sold on ‘oralism’ vs. ‘signing’ (two battling camps in the world of pedagogy for the deaf), but they had only very limited success teaching lip reading, and their students just didn’t get what Spanish was about.Â

However, they were not prohibited from signing among themselves, and over time their disparate ‘home sign’ ways converged into a common way of signing.Â

“By combining gestures and elements of their home-sign systems, a pidgin-like form and a creole-like language rapidly emerged. They were creating their own language. This “first-stage” pidgin has been called Lenguaje de Signos Nicaragüense (LSN) and is still used by many who attended the school at this time.” (Wikipedia)

(You will presently see the significance in this story that those early attenders still use this primitive pidgin 40 years later, despite exposure to later developments.)

The staff couldn’t understand what the children were saying, but they didn’t ask for help until 1986, when they called on a sign language linguist from MIT, Judy Kegl.

By that time, there had been 9 ‘generations’ of incoming students since the 50 in 1977, 6Â ‘generations’ since the 400 in 1980. The annual arrival of newly-exposed children is crucial to this story, especially those under age 10.

(Coincidentally, Zellig Harris’s daughter Eva had already been working in Nicaragua for several years. She’s a microbiologist at U.C. Berkeley still working in Nicaragua, now focused especially on the virus that causes Dengue fever, and more broadly on sophisticated low-budget public health in developing countries. She’s married to a Nicaraguan. We’ll get to the significance of this coincidence presently.)

Other linguists after Dr. Kegl have got involved. References that I’ve listed at the end of this post describe how they have observed the refinement and sophistication of this pidgin sign language progressively with each new generation of children. In brief:

  • Signing gestures at first were close to the miming done by congenitally deaf adults who lack language (another part of the podcast). These relatively large and expressive/depictive gestures became more compact, stylized, and conventionalized to signs with each generation.
  • Children under about age 10 innovate as they learn the sign language of the community that they move into.
  • The change that is the focus of the referenced studies is the emergence of spatial orientation as a modifier of signs. This is a well-known feature of ASL and other sign languages that have been created by people with prior knowledge of language. Signing before the chest has straightforward (so to speak) meaning, and the same sign to the right or to the left denotes a modification of the basic sign.
  • Orientation is used to indicate co-reference of two signs to the same individual or to the same temporal context. Hereby hangs the central entry point of my particular interest in this.
  • This side channel for information is overloaded, in that there is no overt way to distinguish e.g. same person from same time, or same person from same utensil that the person was using for eating.Â
  • This is because this metalanguage device–the means for signing about signs themselves (this present sign has the same referent as that prior sign)–is not part of the signing system itself. The metalanguage is separate from the language. And it is because it lacks ‘words’ (signs), but rather is only a modifier of signs, its capacity as a metalanguage is impoverished.
  • Worse, this side channel for information is also overloaded for anotehr reason. It is used for purely expressive purposes, e.g. turning rhythmically from side to side in the progress of a narrative.

In natural language, the metalanguage is part of the language. We can use words to refer to words and to assert co-reference and the like. For example, I could say any of the following, in progressively more explicit form:

I read the paper by Kocab et al.

I read the paper which is by Kocab et al.

I read a paper; it is by Kocab et al.

I read a paper; a paper (previous word same as a prior word)Â is by Kocab et al.

The last paraphrase is unnatural because previous same as prior is asserted explicitly in words, rather than the immediately previous occurrence of paper being reduced to the pronoun it (which carries the metalanguage information ‘same as something said nearby’), or being reduced to the -ich part of which (which carries the metalanguage information ‘same as as a closely preceding word’), plus (by a longer route) the definite article in the paper. Even the which can be reduced to zero because that paraphrase relation is conventional and the metalanguage assertion of same reference is understood.

It may be that these signers cannot recite “This is the house that Jack built” because there are too many distinct same-reference links in the chain. The song “I am my own grandpa” may be inaccessible to them unless they have writing as a bridge to the metalanguage capacities of spoken language.

Now the particular personal interest that this story sparked in me. In 1994, Terry Langendoen’s review of Zellig Harris’s Language and information: A mathematical approach was published in the journal of the Linguistic Society of America:

Langendoen, D. T. 1994. Review of A Theory of Language and Information: A Mathematical Approach by Zellig Harris. Language, Vol. 70, No. 3 (Sep., 1994), pp. 585-588.

… the concluding paragraph of section 10.7, ‘Non-linguistic systems; music’, says something so outrageous that I am compelled to quote it in its entirety (318):

'Finally, it seems that the sign language of the deaf does not have an explicit operator-argument partial ordering, nor an internal metalanguage, but rests upon a direct juxtaposition of the relevant referents. This applies to autonomous sign languages, developed by the deaf without instruction from people who know spoken language.

Lest there be any doubt about the implications of this paragraph, by ‘internal metalanguage’ Harris means the sentences which constitute the grammar of the language (359).

Harris was clearly referring to the endogenous sign language in Nicaragua, which he had learned about from his daughter Eva Harris. The discussion so far has been about the absence of a metalanguage that is part of the language itself. The further part about an explicit operator-argument partial ordering suggests to me that in this sign language they couldn’t have a “he said-she said” conversation, or to remark that they once thought thus and so but because of such and such have concluded that so and so did it. The sign language would have to have acquired the capacity to have one verb assert something about another (“an explicit operator-argument partial ordering”), probably, but maybe not provably, from their instruction in Spanish language literacy.

References to follow up:

A general discussion, like the above linked Wikipedia article:
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-nicaraguan-sign-languageÂ

Senghas, A., & Coppola, M. (2001). Children Creating Language: How Nicaraguan Sign Language Acquired a Spatial Grammar. Psychological Science, 12(4), 323–328. doi: 10.1111/1467-9280.00359

There’s a paywall there; it’s posted here:

http://ling.umd.edu/~omaki/teaching/Ling240_Summ2007/Senghas%26Coppola01_NicaraguanSL.pdf

That was 2001. More recent:

···

At the end, breaking abruptly from the general tenor and flow of his review, he  wrote:

Senghas, Ann. 2011. The Emergence of Two Functions for Spatial Devices in Nicaraguan Sign Language Hum Dev. 2011 Jan; 53(5): 287–302. doi:Â [10.1159/000321455]

Kocab, Annemarie, Pyers, Jennie, & Senghas, Ann. (2015). Referential shift in Nicaraguan Sign Language: a transition from lexical to spatial devices. Front Psychol. 2014; 5: 1540. Published online Jan 9. doi:Â [10.3389/fpsyg.2014.01540]

[From Rick Marken (2003.12.09.2030)]

I looked over the "Love and Hate" thread, which started with [Bruce Gregory (2003.12.07.0905)], in order to show Bruce examples of what I thought were his baiting. But as I read it over I could see that there was no baiting at all. Bruce was simply saying things that I found disturbing. I took these disturbances as being intentionally created by Bruce -- that he was baiting me -- and I think that was very unfair of me. It's what led to me to make the completely unnecessary remark at the end of the series

Actually, there was quite a bit more to say -- especially correct stuff -- wasn't there?

Up to that point, Bruce had done nothing worse than say some things about HPCT that were off the mark, from my perspective. It was only after I made that last, unnecessary remark that Bruce leveled the heavy artillery at me.

I say this after looking carefully over the whole thread (11 pages in WORD). The worst I could find from Bruce was:

  The problem appears to be that I believed you when you said, "The
  relative gain of same-level systems is not really part of the process
  of hierarchical control." Were you pulling my leg? Or do you want to
  have it both ways?

This seems a bit like game playing to me. But big deal? It really wasn't a very tough game and games can be fun.

And then maybe Bruce was getting a tad sarcastic with

What subtlety have I failed to grasp?

but, again, big deal?

So, all in all, I think the thread actually went quite well. I found it to be surprisingly substantive. I think CSGNet can do just fine sans moderator.

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

Message
From [David Goldstein (2003.12.10.0647)]

[From Rick Marken (2003.12.09.2030)]

Rick,

Well done!

I think you went up a level, inside and outside of you.

David

David M. Goldstein, Ph.D.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu] ** On Behalf Of** Rick Marken
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:35 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject:

[From Rick Marken (2003.12.09.2030)]

I looked over the “Love and Hate” thread, which started with [Bruce Gregory (2003.12.07.0905)], in order to show Bruce examples of what I thought were his baiting. But as I read it over I could see that there was no baiting at all. Bruce was simply saying things that I found disturbing. I took these disturbances as being intentionally created by Bruce – that he was baiting me – and I think that was very unfair of me. It’s what led to me to make the completely unnecessary remark at the end of the series

Actually, there was quite a bit more to say -- especially correct stuff -- wasn't there?

Up to that point, Bruce had done nothing worse than say some things about HPCT that were off the mark, from my perspective. It was only after I made that last, unnecessary remark that Bruce leveled the heavy artillery at me.

I say this after looking carefully over the whole thread (11 pages in WORD). The worst I could find from Bruce was:

The problem appears to be that I believed you when you said, "The
relative gain of same-level systems is not really part of the process
of hierarchical control." Were you pulling my leg? Or do you want to

have it both ways?

This seems a bit like game playing to me. But big deal? It really wasn’t a very tough game and games can be fun.

And then maybe Bruce was getting a tad sarcastic with

What subtlety have I failed to grasp?

but, again, big deal?

So, all in all, I think the thread actually went quite well. I found it to be surprisingly substantive. I think CSGNet can do just fine sans moderator.

Best regards

Rick
—/fontfamily>
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.10.0727)]

Rick Marken (2003.12.09.2030)

So, all in all, I think the thread actually went quite well. I found it to be surprisingly substantive. I think CSGNet can do just fine sans moderator.

Thanks for taking the time to review this thread. I, too, found it to substantive and informative. (I hope we are not the only ones!)

I clearly overreacted to your jibe. I'll do better in the future.

Bruce Gregory

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again."

                                                                                Andre Gide

i.n.kurtzer 921201.1815

since the past few posts have centered on control system engineering, i
figured i would tell a joke i was told over this past holiday by a
control systems engineer :

     an airplane was flying and everything seemed normal and then
     it crashed without warning, why? there were too many poles on
     the right.
first, i hope a didn't offend anyone, it was not intentional (now that is
funny) and secondly i hope someone found the joke funny or at least understood
the punchline (i did not and don't know why its funny,except the two meanings
of "pole").

Dr. Arkin,

    Regarding intelligent buildings, I think there was a book
published by MIT Press in the early-mid 1970's called The
Adaptive House, which discussed user-modifiable structures and
(if my memory is correct) self-adapting structures and materials.
I think there are still quite a few visionaries left in the
Architecture and Urban Studies departments at MIT, so you might
try to get in touch with them.

    There are also a small number of people concerned with
Intelligent Materials, which are essentially adaptive materials
that change their properties in response to changing environments
(like the bones of most vertebrates). I don't know if this group
includes architects and builders; unfortunately I don't have a
good reference or contact for them.

Peter Cariani

[From Francisco Arocha (921223; 18:49)]

Bill Powers (921222.0800)

When I last looked, there were 132 subscribers to this list.
Permit me a moment of impatience: when are some of you people
going to get out of your armchairs?

Well, I guess I'm one of those 132 people in the list. I find it
very difficult to do PCT research when one is interested in
levels beyond the category. Anyhow, I've not given up and I plan
to spend a large portion of the days between Dec. 28 and Dec. 31
in an intensive care unit, trying to make sense of physicians'
behaviour in terms of PCT, at least to the extent that my
knowlege permits me. Maybe not everything is so grim...

Have everybody a happy holiday and a productive next year!

PCTvely yours,

Francisco

FROM CHUCK TUCKER 951207

   THIS IS A NOTE I SENT TO RICK IN ANSWER TO HIS 951206 POST
   ON "Let's Get Experimental"

It is a great idea and I support it and will do the experiment with
my students in January. My main concern is that the instructions
given to the participants (also called subjects by some) are written
our in as much detail as humanly possible and that pre-testing be done
to make as certain as we can that they are understood and followed. I
hope that the instruction can be incorporated into the program that
appears on the screen just like the DEMO1 and the suggestions that I
sent to you last year for the modification of your experiment which
I call ALIGN 5 (I think?)[ by the way that would be a good experiment to
also do and if you can write it I would love to do that also!!!!!]
In addition, we should have procedures worked out and clearly written
to collect the observations of the participants AND the experimenter
(I like to video tape these observations myself).

I know that you and Bill think (in fact, both of you have said this
to me) my concern for instructions and observations is overstated
but I think it is VERY important and one of the criticisms that I
have my own past research and the research of others (that is
why I agree with you that most studies are not useful for secondary
meta-analysis nor can they be replicated - the researchers do not
decribe what they did or what the subjects did). I will work on
this as best as I can.

So when y'all get the basic design of the study developed I will
work on the instructions and observational record taking procedures
WITH y'all.

I will re-read your 1206 post and those that follow it and make specific
recommendations on CSG-L.

Regards, Chuck

<[Bill Leach 951207.21:41 U.S. Eastern Time Zone]

CHUCK TUCKER 951207

I know that you and Bill think (in fact, both of you have said this
to me) my concern for instructions and observations is overstated
but I think it is VERY important and one of the criticisms that I
have my own past research and the research of others (that is
why I agree with you that most studies are not useful for secondary
meta-analysis nor can they be replicated - the researchers do not
decribe what they did or what the subjects did). I will work on
this as best as I can.

This comes as a bit of a surprise to me. After reading Phil Runkel's
book, I would think that he would agree with you. I know that I
certainly agree with what you said.

-bill

[From Bruce Abbott (951213.2020 EST)]

Bill Powers (951212.1530 MST) --

Well, I finally took the bull by the horns and downloaded the current CSG-L
log file. There I found this wonderful little gem [Bill Powers
(951212.1530)] which even now (8 pm EST) has failed to reach me via the
normal channels. Other posts newer than this have begun to dribble in, so
it may get here yet, but it's a bit too late now for me to draft any kind of
reply yet today. Tomorrow I have some business to attend to downtown and
will probably not return to my computer until sometime in the late
afternoon. Meanwhile, I have printed out the aforesaid post and will give
it a bit of thought this evening. I have had no trouble following your
analysis and do not disagree with it, but want to try out a few alternative
assumptions and see where they lead. Hints: (1) There are other reasons why
performance might be rate-limited even if the underlying relationship is one
of positive feedback. (2) satiation has nothing to do with it. [I keep
educating you about this, Bill, but you keep backsliding. (;->]

Regards,

Bruce

[From Bruce Abbott (951213.2215 EST)]

Kent McClelland (951213.1000 CST) --

Kent, thanks for your comments. A few of my own follow.

Evidently, your disagreement revolves around the definition of what
constitutes a fact (as Bill Powers implies in his later post (951212.1530
MST)). It seems to me that it might help to keep in mind that facts, like
other perceptions, are just perceptions. Facts are, of course,
"collectively controlled perceptions", because they have been agreed upon
as true by a relevant group of individuals who have been able to persuade
each other that they all see the things in question the same way, the way
they collectively deem as factual. Establishing the facts of the case
means coming to agreement over what "really" happened, that is, agreeing
upon a set of verbally communicable reference standards that can be used by
everyone participating in the collective action of perceptual control to
control without undo error their own perception of the alleged event or
phenomenon.

Of course. If EVERYTHING is perception, then what is perceived as fact is
perception. But I don't think the disagreement between Bill and me to which
you refer depends on the definition of fact; rather, we disagreed on whether
the TYPE of facts involved in my assertion that reinforcement is a _fact_
were plain old replicated empirical observations or interpretations of
observations which are taken as facts. I liked Mary's example of the stars,
sun, moon, and planets going around the earth: this conception fits
appearances so well that it was not questioned for around 2000 years, yet
the assumed "fact" was in reality an interpretation of the observations. I
argued that the "facts" I was asserting were of the pure observational type
and not "hypothetico-empirical."

Mere observation by any individual, then, cannot establish facts. Rather
they must be socially constructed and maintained by a group of cooperating
fact-knowers, say a group of scientists (or, I shudder to think, a group of
lawyers!). While agreement in most cases increases the probability that
the fact as stated corresponds in some way with the aspect of "boss
reality" it purports to describe, social groups can and have been wrong in
their determination of facts, including perhaps even EAB scientists (and I
suppose, though only hypothetically of course, PCT researchers). So the
conclusion of my gratuitous sociological observation here is that
scientists can't start from facts to build their theories, because science
consists of establishing those facts in the first place. (It takes a good
theory to construct a robust fact!)

I disagree that observation by any individual cannot establish facts.
Whatever I believe is true is a "fact" for me. As a scientist I may be more
inclined than some to insist on empirical evidence for my empirical "facts,"
on replication of them, and may even then retain a skeptical attitude about
their truth-status. Of course, when you say "establish" facts, you don't
mean simply that the individual accepts them, you mean that some larger
social community agrees that they are facts. Even there, however, it is
more than agreement that establishes a fact in science, at least in the
ideal: a set of specific criteria must be met (e.g., replication). Real
people violate these criteria, (especially when the "facts" support their
views; they get a LOT more critical of them when the "facts" contradict!)
but that's not to say that they aren't there, and aren't applied.

That's a fact. (;->

Regards,

Bruce

[From Bruce Abbott (951215.1820 EST)]

Joel Judd 951215.1500 CST

Bruce and Rick [recently]:

Sorry Bruce--as long as Pizza Hut coupons are seen as a way to increase
reading among children, your arguments for more sophisticated applications
of psychology to education (at least) don't persuade me. (Or honor
rolls--read the bumper stickers, or "bonus bucks," or any of the other
thinly-disguised reinforcers my kids deal with every day).

"Applications" like this don't persuade me either, Joel, because they are
misapplications of the technology. For starters, the contingent events
should (a) immediately follow the behavior they are supposed to reinforce,
and (b) have been shown to serve as effective reinforcers. In the examples
you provide, neither is true. These simpleminded programs don't _employ_
proper operant technology, they ignore it.

Regards,

Bruce

4
Return-Path: <CUNNINGB@MONROE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Received: from MONROElan out the
Status: RO

possibilities for all the areas which make one "well-educated"? And when
it comes to the concept of grade levels and and moving from one to the
next, or in graduating from school, or in being accepted to a
university, or in determining one's communicative prowess, what happens?
How many think that the notion of assessing the presence and
sophistication of "controlled variables" is going to fly in our society?

Raise your hand.

Hello, everybody –

You will all be relieved to know that Bill, his daughter Allie, and his
granddaughter Sarah, though terrified, safely escaped from a giant
control system while on a recent trip to downtown Denver.

Emacs!

Best,

Bill P.

(Attachment 15e5443.jpg is missing)

[From Bruce Abbott (2000.12.18.1105 EST)]

>No. We already knew why Bush was worried about the fairness of the
>recount. A fair recount was likely to show that Gore won by a
>considerable margin (possibly more than the 20,000 predicted
>by the Miami Herald).

How do you know what Bush was worried about?

Do you know that by far the most typical experience with recounts is that
they make little difference

Bush spent four million dollars preventing a manual count, which in the
end even the Supreme Court agreed was the fairest way to conclude the
election. What was he controlling for?

Here are a few opinion pieces that discuss Bush's strategy:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16797-2000Dec16.html?GXHC_gx_session_id_FutureTenseContentServer=f71f5ff97364054b&referer=email

http://www.tnr.com/122500/chait122500.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/comment/20001217/t000120315.html
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/election/774355

Shannon