Two Level Control (branching off Re: reorganization at work)

[From Rick Marken (2016.02.14.1250)]

Bruce Abbott (2016.02.14.0945 EST)--

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Rick Marken (2016.02.13.1140) --

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RM: So I have developed a demonstration of two levels of control operating simultaneously in a tracking task. The demo still needs some work but I'm so excited about it I would like people to give it a try and let me know if it works for them. An initial version of the demo is up at:Â

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<Two Level Control; www.mindreadings.com/TwoLevelControl.html

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RM: Any comments or suggestions on this demo would be greatly appreciated.Â

 BA: I tried the demo and have a few comments/suggestions:

RM: Super, thanks!Â

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1.     The instruction “Press the “Basic Tracking Experiment" button below to open the window that runs the tracking taskâ€? is unnecessary – theree is no such button and the screen is already as if you had pressed such a button.

RM: Yes, that's a remnant of an obsolete demo. I'll fix it. Â

2.     There may be differences in speed of execution of the demo depending on what computer one is using. I found the cursor movements generally too fast to track with any degree of accuracy – well below the level of accurracy shown in the top graph from your own run. If fact, sometimes the cursor would just disappear from one location and reappear in another. It would be nice to know whether anyone else experiences this problem and, whether or not it occurs, what computer they were using. Mine is an older HP laptop running the Windows Vista operating system. (Come to think of it, the system I use to control the mouse is something of an antique as well!)

RM: It works well for me on my new PC, Old PC, iMac and iPhone (using touch screen rather than mouse). Those are all pretty new (and fast) systems. The system could have a big effect because I am calculating the velocity of the mouse on each animation iteration and it's that velocity that I am disturbing via multiplication. And I get the resulting mouse position by integrating the the velocity. There is a lot of room for noise being introduced there and without good temporal resolution of the changes in mouse position things could get ugly. It would be nice if others could try it and describe their experiences on their computer. >

3.     It’s hard to tell, but perhaps the above problem is due to the effect of the “force� on the cursor. If the cursor suddenly accelerates it may reach a high rate before the participant has time to even begin to compensate for the change. In other words, the force disturbance may be causing effects that are outside the bandwidth for effective control.

RM: Yes, it's something like that. I have trouble tracking well myself. I have tried changing the force disturbance and the one that's being used gives the best results for me. I can try tweeking it some more once I get some more reports from others. >

4.     I don’t experience the disturbance as a force acting on the mouse, but rather as an acceleration of the cursor. To compensate for it, I of course must vary the force applied to the mouse so as to generate an opposing acceleration of the cursor. A true force disturbance to the mouse would be experienced as a push or pull on the mouse.

RM: True. I think the main thing I want to show is that there are two control processes going on simultaneously and that they are hierarchically related. In order to show this I'll have to see if a two level model behaves as the person does. So that's the next step. >

BA: Â You should be able to implement a true force disturbance by switching from the mouse to one of those joysticks with force feedback.

RM: Yes, but I really like the idea of being able to let people demonstrate this to themselves with just what they have on their laptop, phone or tablet (using mouse or keypad).Â

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BA: What does the block diagram look like for your two-level system?

RM: I'm going to include it in the next iteration of demo once I get the two level model working. That is, if the two level model works like a person; if a one level model does just as well I'll have to abandon the idea (once again) that this is an example of two level control.Â
Thanks again for the comments.
BestÂ
Rick
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···

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Bruce

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Bruce A.

--
Richard S. MarkenÂ
Author, with Timothy A. Carey, of  <Amazon.com People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human.Â

[From Rick Marken (2016.02.16.0920)]

···

RM: It turns out that all your comments/concerns were well founded. I added a simple one level model to the demo and, as you will see if you now try the demo again, the model behaves exactly as the person does. My idea that the “force” measures over time were the outputs of a lower level (L1) force control system was completely self-deception on my part, what Feynman called the “original sin” of science. Feynman went on to say that “the first principle [of science] is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.” And, I might add, that it’s particularly easy to fool yourself when you really want to believe that something is true, because it would be so lovely if it were. And I really wanted to believe that I had come up with a demonstration of two levels of control operating simultaneously – without the need for extra equipment, like a force feedback joystick. But I’m sure now that this demonstration of two levels of control operating simultaneously in a control task can only be demonstrated using a force feedback joystick with the computer adding force disturbances to the joystick.

RM: The reason I am putting up the results of my little modeling exercise is to show that modeling is really a way (possibly the only way) to keep scientists from fooling themselves.

RM: So now I will move on to other things and leave development of the two level control demo to someone who has a force feedback joystick and knows how to use it (I’m looking at you Warren Mansell;-)

Best

Rick

Bruce Abbott (2016.02.14.0945 EST)–

RM: I have developed a demonstration of two levels of control operating simultaneously in a tracking task. The demo still needs some work but I’m so excited about it I would like people to give it a try and let me know if it works for them. An initial version of the demo is up at:

www.mindreadings.com/TwoLevelControl.html

RM: Any comments or suggestions on this demo would be greatly appreciated.

BA: I tried the demo and have a few comments/suggestions:

Richard S. Marken

Author, with Timothy A. Carey, of Controlling People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human.

That’s right… only because we have an in-house technical guy - Yu Li. Max has an update for you…
Warren

···

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2016.02.16.0920)]

RM: It turns out that all your comments/concerns were well founded. I added a simple one level model to the demo and, as you will see if you now try the demo again, the model behaves exactly as the person does. My idea that the “force” measures over time were the outputs of a lower level (L1) force control system was completely self-deception on my part, what Feynman called the “original sin” of science. Feynman went on to say that “the first principle [of science] is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.” And, I might add, that it’s particularly easy to fool yourself when you really want to believe that something is true, because it would be so lovely if it were. And I really wanted to believe that I had come up with a demonstration of two levels of control operating simultaneously – without the need for extra equipment, like a force feedback joystick. But I’m sure now that this demonstration of two levels of control operating simultaneously in a control task can only be demonstrated using a force feedback joystick with the computer adding force disturbances to the joystick.

RM: The reason I am putting up the results of my little modeling exercise is to show that modeling is really a way (possibly the only way) to keep scientists from fooling themselves.

RM: So now I will move on to other things and leave development of the two level control demo to someone who has a force feedback joystick and knows how to use it (I’m looking at you Warren Mansell;-)

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken

Author, with Timothy A. Carey, of Controlling People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human.

Bruce Abbott (2016.02.14.0945 EST)–

RM: I have developed a demonstration of two levels of control operating simultaneously in a tracking task. The demo still needs some work but I’m so excited about it I would like people to give it a try and let me know if it works for them. An initial version of the demo is up at:

www.mindreadings.com/TwoLevelControl.html

RM: Any comments or suggestions on this demo would be greatly appreciated.

BA: I tried the demo and have a few comments/suggestions:

Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology
School of Psychological Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk

Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589

Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406

Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach

Available Now

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory