[From Rick Marken (980824.1240)]
Mary Powers (980823) to Dick R. (980823.0003CDT)
When Vivian is holding Aaron's shoulder so he won't act up, she
is controlling for her perception of him sitting in the chair
and not disturbing people. As far as he is concerned, she is an
overwhelming disturbance - she is preventing him from controlling
for bouncing around in the restaurant.
I don't think she is controlling his behavior.
Mary, have you gone over to the dark side, too? 
What would you say Vivian is doing, then?
She's not getting inside his head setting reference signals OR
firing neurons that make muscles move.
True. But she is setting her own reference signal for a particular
perception of Aaron's behavior (the perception of Aaron "sitting
in the chair and not disturbing people") and acting (by holding his
shoulder) to keep that perception in the reference state. I think
Vivian is clearly controlling Aaron's behavior. What am I missing?
Best
Rick
路路路
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken
[From Bruce Gregory 9980824.1552 EDT)]
Rick Marken (980824.1240)
> I don't think she is controlling his behavior.
Mary, have you gone over to the dark side, too?
I think
Vivian is clearly controlling Aaron's behavior.
Boy, is PCT difficult! Only three people in the world _really_ understand
it, and two of them don't agree. No wonder some of us have such a hard time
getting it right.
Bruce Gregory
[From Rick Marken (980825.0825)]
Mary Powers:
I don't think she is controlling his behavior.
Me:
Mary, have you gone over to the dark side, too?
I think Vivian is clearly controlling Aaron's behavior.
Bruce Gregory (980824.1552 EDT) --
Boy, is PCT difficult!
Only for those who don't _want_ to learn it.
Only three people in the world _really_ understand
it, and two of them don't agree.
I'm not sure we disagree. In PCT, to behave is to control.
You can't control the fact that another person _is_ controlling.
So in this sense Mary is correct; Vivian is not controlling
Aaron's behavior in the sense that she is not controlling the
_fact_ that Aaron is controlling. I went through this discussion
with Bruce Nevin some time ago and agreed with Bruce when he
made exactly this point.
But then we have the problem of verbally describing what Vivian
_is_ doing. She may not be controlling Aaron's _behavior_ (because
behavior is control) but she is certainly controlling _something_
( Aaron's position in his chair, his hand movements, etc). When I
had this discussion with Bruce Nevin I suggested describing the
kind of behavior (controlling) being done by Vivian in her
interaction with Aaron as "controlling _aspects_ of behavior".
This makes sense to me; Vivian is not controlling the _fact_ that
that Aaron is controlling (she's not controlling his behavior);
she is controlling variable _aspects_ of Aaron's behavior (arm
movements, body movements, etc) that may or may not be variables
that Aaron is also controlling.
Best
Rick
路路路
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken
[From Rick Marken (980825.1110)]
Dick Robertson (980825.1221CDT) --
I hoped somebody would say, "WAy to go!" about what was
achieved and not just jump on what is still in the works.
Ok. "Way to go, Dick"!
And also, "Way to go, Vivian"! Not to minimize your excellent
efforts, Dick, but I really think Vivian deserves most of the
credit for any understanding Vivian does;-)
Best
Rick
路路路
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken
